46 replies to this topic

[Tchos]

Okay, I've read Kaldor's posts here as well as the converting of a module to a campaign, and also read what looks to be very early information here.  I've also looked over the Silverwand Sample Campaign both in the toolset and by playing through it, but I'm not entirely clear on what I'm looking at sometimes.

I'm starting with a campaign from the beginning, not converting a module, so I'll follow the creation steps in this thread.  I know I need to make a campaign, because I want to use the SoZ party editor.  As far as I can tell, this should be a single module campaign.  But when should I consider splitting it into more than one, and how would I split them if I've already been building it as a single module?

PJ asked a lot of the same questions I had, but what I still don't know is what to make a campaign resource and what to leave as a module resource.

When should a conversation or script be in the campaign folder, and when should it be in the module folder?  Is there a reason not to have everything in the campaign folder?  My plan is to put as much as possible into the campaign folder, and possibly not use HAKs at all.

The only journal should be a campaign resource, correct?  And I don't need to do anything special with my scripting to access the campaign journal?  It works exactly like the module journal?

If I've created something in the module, what's the best way to move it into the campaign?  Would it matter in the case of a single module campaign?

[kevL]

first, work in directory mode to keep life simple. If you have to, or want to switch a resource from module to campaign or vice versa, then its as simple as closing the toolset and moving the file(s) over. Although, things like areas have to remain in the module folder, and things like the campaign journal need to remain in the campaign folder - but scripts, conversations, creatures, etc. can be in either.

Since you're planning on a single module campaign, I'd say a max of 15 areas ( though i could see arguments for as few as 5 big ones or as many as 20 smalls ). Store your moveable resources whereever keeps the head on straight: you might take a strategy where all companion related material goes into the campaign folder, as well as any overall module-based scripting, and leave the rest as module folder stuff.

The campaign folder makes material available to multiple modules. So it doesn't have to be duplicated. If you do duplicate, i *think* the priority goes as follows:

1. haks
2. override
3. campaign folder
4. module itself

yep, leave module journals out of it and just use campaign j's


/ thoughts

[Shallina]

Nothing should go in override.

[Shaughn78]

One thing to remember when making the decision is a Campaign resources is avaliable in all modules and a campaign resource can be upgraded in game unlike module resources.

Things I have be campaign resources:
-Plot conversations -This allows them to be updated in game should they need to be
-Game mechanic scripts - Some examples would be modified curse systems, resting, Lance's fog, death systems. THings that need to happen in all modules to maintain consistent play.
-Item tag scripts - on hit, equip, unaquire, etc.
-Companion resources -Blueprint, items, conversations, scripts
-Items - Anything you want to have available across modules, especially plot items. Area specific items (keys, fetch-quest, puzzle-thingies and whatnot) are usually module level items.
-All generic creatures I make campaign resources as well as any plot NPCs.
-Journal

Depending on what you are adding you will likely still need a HAK, many resources placed in a HAK will not be recognized in the campaign folder.

As for module size: This is a completely arbitrary number that I used with no real facts to back it up, other than load times on my computer. But I try to keep an individual module to around 150mb. I have found this generally works out to 2 major areas with approximately 10 smaller side and support areas.

Edited by Shaughn78, 20 May 2012 - 01:23 PM.

[Tchos]

Okay, thank you for the responses, kevL, Shallina, and Shaughn.  Here's the current setup:

• No override folder
• Directory mode for modules
• All conversations, scripts, creatures, items, and the journal in the campaign folder.  It doesn't sound like it would hurt anything to do that.  Is that correct?
• An estimated 2 large areas, 2-3 medium areas, 1 overland map, and maybe around 10 small areas (mostly shop interiors).  There might be a couple more depending on how much time I have left after building the important parts.  From what several of you say here, it sounds like I'm pushing it, and should think about making it two modules.
• Use of resources such as tilesets

Things I'm still not sure about:

• If I made an item and put it in the folder for module 1 of a two-module campaign, and the player took it into module 2, what would happen to the item?  Would it just disappear from the inventory, or would the player be left with a no-icon, useless, and undefined item?
• I want to extract only the parts I need from several tileset and item haks, and make either a single hak for this module, or, if possible, put the resources in the campaign folder and use no haks (with all outside resources being fully documented and credited, of course).  Shaughn, you mentioned that some things won't be recognised under certain circumstances.  Could you explain about that further?
• If I split into two modules, would I be unable to check or set a local variable on an object inside the other module?

Also, having learned from an earlier mistake, I'm using FileHamster, a file revision/backup tool (linked version is the older version I use, from when it was free), to automatically save into my Dropbox sync folder the last 10 saves of most of the file types I'm saving in my module folders.

Edited by Tchos, 22 May 2012 - 12:52 AM.

[Alupinu]

Tchos wrote...
Q: "All conversations, scripts, creatures, items, and the journal in the campaign folder.  It doesn't sound like it would hurt anything to do that.  Is that correct?"


A: Correct, the reason for being able to choose between campaign or module blueprint is just a matter of TS clutter in other words keeping your TS tidy and organized. In my project or the game campaign for that matter they are so large, if everything was stored in the campaign folder the TS would be an organizational nightmare and take forever to find anything.


Q: "An estimated 2 large areas, 2-3 medium areas, 1 overland map, and maybe around 10 small areas (mostly shop interiors).  There might be a couple more depending on how much time I have left after building the important parts.  From what several of you say here, it sounds like I'm pushing it, and should think about making it two modules."


A: Decide on whether to use two mods or not *Now*. I’m telling you friend trying to break up a completed mod into two is headache you will regret. Unless you have some genius for detail, chances are your going to forget or overlook a few things and you will have an endless parade of bugs and more bugs.


"Things I'm still not sure about:"

Q: "If I made an item and put it in the folder for module 1 of a two-module campaign, and the player took it into module 2, what would happen to the item?  Would it just disappear from the inventory, or would the player be left with a no-icon, useless, and undefined item?"


A: No, a PC can take an item into another module even though that module does not have a copy of the blueprint. I believe that a copy of the blue print actually travels and is stored with PC. This making it possible for the character to take his items into other mods or even other Campaigns.


Q: "I want to extract only the parts I need from several tileset and item haks, and make either a single hak for this module, or, if possible, put the resources in the campaign folder and use no haks (with all outside resources being fully documented and credited, of course).  Shaughn, you mentioned that some things won't be recognised under certain circumstances.  Could you explain about that further?"


A: How do you know what parts you’re going to need? And why would you deprive yourself of extra building material? I promise you friend you have not thought of all the idea’s that you are going to implement into your campaign. Also may I point out that trying to dissect a custom tile set or hak is a bigger headache then it sounds. Seems to me it would be a lot easier to just install the custom files as the author intended.
I believe what Shaughn is referring to is things like custom 2da files, which have to be put into a hak file or override. The hak file and override file are the only two files that can override the game engines resource files.


Q: "If I split into two modules, would I be unable to check or set a local variable on an object inside the other module?"

A: I’m a little noobish with your last question so I’m going to leave that to somebody else. LOL 

Edited by Alupinu, 21 May 2012 - 06:36 PM.

[Shaughn78]

Alupinu wrote...
Q: "If I made an item and put it in the folder for module 1 of a two-module campaign, and the player took it into module 2, what would happen to the item?  Would it just disappear from the inventory, or would the player be left with a no-icon, useless, and undefined item?"


A: No, a PC can take an item into another module even though that module does not have a copy of the blueprint. I believe that a copy of the blue print actually travels and is stored with PC. This making it possible for the character to take his items into other mods or even other Campaigns.


Q: "If I split into two modules, would I be unable to check or set a local variable on an object inside the other module?"

A: I’m a little noobish with your last question so I’m going to leave that to somebody else. LOL 

Module items can go from module to module providing that:
-Any scripts attached to that item are camapign scripts
-Any custom icons are included in the HAK for both modules
-A module item can only be given to a player in the module it is part of. If a player want to use console commands or a builder wnats to give that ite by script if the player isn't in the module with that item they will not recieve that item.

You can only set items on an item in the current module. You can not access objects in another module. The best way around this will be to set those variables on the player.

[Alupinu]

Well if your referring to *custom items*, items that require it's own hack, ect. Then what Shaughn78 say’s is true. But if you’re asking about in-house items that you made with the TS, that have their own blueprint but do not require a hak then my above statement still stands.

Edited by Alupinu, 21 May 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[Tchos]

Alupinu wrote...
A: Decide on whether to use two mods or not *Now*. I’m telling you friend trying to break up a completed mod into two is headache you will regret. Unless you have some genius for detail, chances are your going to forget or overlook a few things and you will have an endless parade of bugs and more bugs.

I'll think I'll stick with a single module, since this is my first NWN2 module and I think it would be the least likely to create complications.

Alupinu wrote...
A: How do you know what parts you’re going to need? And why would you deprive yourself of extra building material? I promise you friend you have not thought of all the idea’s that you are going to implement into your campaign.

Well, first an example.  There's a spiral staircase in one of the RWS tilesets that I want to use if I can manipulate it in vertical space and rotation, but I won't be needing the rest of that tileset for this project.  Also, as a player, I prefer modules that use their own single hak, named after the module, for convenient downloading and easy cleanup later.

I understand what you mean about thinking of things and adding them in the process, but I have a fairly strict plan and timetable for this one, and I can't succumb to scope creep.  Any ideas I come up with in the process, if they don't fit in my timetable, I'll save for future modules.  I'm also going to try some of the techniques Kamal outlined in his "speed building" post.  I've nearly finished my outline of the needed areas and NPCs, and I'll be ready to start on the thing pretty soon.

Now, is it possible to add another module to the campaign later, with its own quests and areas, as an extension of the original module, without making the players start over?  Or is it better just to have the players import their characters and resume from there?

Shaughn78 wrote...
Module items can go from module to module providing that:
-Any custom icons are included in the HAK for both modules

Alupinu wrote...
I believe what Shaughn is referring to is things like custom 2da files, which have to be put into a hak file or override. The hak file and override file are the only two files that can override the game engines resource files.

Okay, then this seems to mean that I'll have to include a hak, since if I understand correctly, I'll need to use a custom 2DA file for adding non-vanilla tilesets and item models/icons from builders' resources, and if it's the case that 2DA files in the campaign folder won't properly take precedence over the standard ones.

Shaughn78 wrote...
You can only set [variables] on an item in the current module. You can not access objects in another module. The best way around this will be to set those variables on the player.

All right.  That's superior to using a campaign variable or a global variable?

Edited by Tchos, 22 May 2012 - 03:28 AM.

[PJ156]

Now, is it possible to add another module to the campaign later, with its own quests and areas, as an extension of the original module, without making the players start over?  Or is it better just to have the players import their characters and resume from there?

Yes but you can't change content in an area. I guess you could spawn a new npc blueprint if you left yourself some spare spawn points in the starter mod but some degree of planning is required there. Otherwise you can extend the conversation of an existing npc in the campaign folder and the same with scripts for transistions. That is the flexibility of a campaign.

PJ

[Dorateen]

Tchos wrote...

I'm starting with a campaign from the beginning, not converting a module, so I'll follow the creation steps in this thread.  I know I need to make a campaign, because I want to use the SoZ party editor. 

This is good news! Some basic points for when you open up the Campaign Editor plugin. Obviously, you will set the Party Creation option to true. You can also change the Party size from the default 4 to however many characters you want the player to have in the group.

If you are going to allow the SoZ bleeding system, that gets flagged here, although the scripts also have to be imported and placed in the appropriate module properties.

Party chat conversations, if you want to use these, are set in the properties of the conversation.

Good fortune with your project.

Harumph! 

[Tchos]

@PJ: Okay, thanks. I'll keep that in mind.

@Dorateen: Thank you for those tips. I do indeed plan to use the party chat, and although I already found that setting while testing my UI mod, I didn't know how to implement the bleeding system, which I also would like to use. Based on what you mention, I did a search, and found Kaldor's instructions on which scripts to use.

I want to allow a full party creation of up to 6 (preferably without the need for the "leadership" feat), but I also plan to include a range of optional companions of different classes around town.

Edited by Tchos, 22 May 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[Alupinu]

PJ156 wrote...

Now, is it possible to add another module to the campaign later, with its own quests and areas, as an extension of the original module, without making the players start over?  Or is it better just to have the players import their characters and resume from there?

Yes but you can't change content in an area. I guess you could spawn a new npc blueprint if you left yourself some spare spawn points in the starter mod but some degree of planning is required there. Otherwise you can extend the conversation of an existing npc in the campaign folder and the same with scripts for transistions. That is the flexibility of a campaign.

PJ

You can as Pj pointed out but you cannot change a single thing in your first mod or the save game won’t recognize it and the game will not load.
My suggestion would be to make a copy of the last area that the pc is in at the end of your first mod. Export that into your second mod and have that as your start area of chapter 2. Just a thought.

Tchos wrote…
Also, as a player, I prefer modules that use their own single hak, named after the module, for convenient downloading and easy cleanup later.

BTW, you are aware that you can combine and make your own haks? It’s really not a big deal.
Here’s the tool…  nwvault.ign.com/View.php

Edited by Alupinu, 22 May 2012 - 08:22 PM.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

It isn't hard to add additional content to an existing campaign. That is how I released King's Festival + Queen's Harvest. First I released King's Festival as a campaign and then later I released the Queen's Harvest areas. Basically you just need to leave yourself a hook to get from the end of your first chapter to get to the area in your second chapter. Your second chapter would be a new module with all of its new areas. An easy hook is to just override a module conversation with a campaign conversation. So for instance you could have a merchant who has a normal module conversation initially. Then, when you want to release your new content you also include a campaign conversation that overrides the merchants conversation so that when you speak with him he says "I can get you on a wagon train to the middle of the desert if you are interested..." or some such, and then teleports you into an area in your new module. So that part is easy.

It gets slightly more complicated if you want to allow travel from the new areas back into the original areas and you want the original areas to show some changes of some kind. My recommendation is that for this reason every area should have an area on enter script defined, even if you have no such script. That way you can create the script later as a campaign script and use it to create or destroy items in the area if you want to do that when the player returns to the area.

Regards

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Tchos,

Also, if you have any questions about the Silverwand Sample Campaign just let me know. It predates SoZ so it doesn't have all of the features of that but I did hope when I wrote it that it would be useful to other modders trying to create campaigns.

Regards

[Tchos]

@Alupinu: I had tried a different tool before, which worked nicely for extracting files from haks, but crashed when I tried to add or replace one. I downloaded the one you linked there more recently, when it was linked in the toolset horror story thread.

@Kaldor: I think I want to play through, and then examine your King's Festival/Queen's Bounty campaign before I begin. I've just installed it. Meanwhile, I do have a few questions about the Silverwand Sample Campaign, but they relate more to the scripting and not to campaign-specific matters. Is there another thread where I can ask them?

So, from your explanation, it sounds like I'll have many opportunities for such a hook as you describe. For instance, in this campaign, a town serves as the main quest hub. I plan to post a guard by the town gate who will handle transportation to various side quest locations, whose conversation I could override to provide more locations later, and also an overland map for a separate location, and from what I understand, overland maps can have new locations added to them after release.

I'll follow your suggestion to put a currently nonexistent On Enter script on my areas. Would it also be good practise to do the same for On Client Enter, On Exit, or the others?

I don't expect there would be much that would change in the town, but if overriding conversation files works, then I think what I should do is give all the named NPCs unique conversation files, rather than assign a single generic conversation to the unimportant NPCs. That way, I could leave the door open for any future module additions to create new quests for those NPCs to give out.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I recommend the On Client Enter script and the heartbeat script. You can define them on the area even if you have no script actually created. Then if you ever need them you can create them without changing the module itself.

Using unique conversations for named characters is also what I would recommend. I only use generic conversations for unnamed citizens using one-liners.

If you have questions about the script in the SSC you can send me a message or an email or you can post them at the Vault.

Regards

[PJ156]

I am interested in this as I/we had planned something similar for a later project.

Just worth a note that you will only get one go at your town. I would consider some spare waypoints to use your on_client_enter to spawn some extra npcs and also running your door off conversations rather than the standard open and close from the vanilla game. I do not think you can change a doors properties by script (others will hopefully correct me).

PJ

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

@PJ156: Technically, you could use the Location function to define those spawn points using floats written-out by hand in the script itself. You take your area, put the placeable where you want it, and then copy down the coordinates in the properties tab for use in your new script. Of course, that's a lot of work, and you still can't change the terrain, texture, or walkmesh.

[PJ156]

That's useful to know. So you could place the item in the mod off line, copy its location to the spawn script and then generate it in the base hub?

PJ

[Tchos]

Running the doors off conversations...wouldn't that interfere with traps or locks? Maybe just for doors that aren't intended to have traps or locks, then. And is that an effective way to make doors just take you directly to the intended location instead of having to click on them once to open them into the empty space, then again to actually transition?

[PJ156]

Not if you can't change the properties of the door i.e. the jump location from a script.

From a conversation you can manage locking and change the diffculty of the lock, you can manage traps etc but all thorugh the conversation. You could have a line .. "Check the door for traps" which creates a spot trap check etc. Ultimately you can do much more with the door by simply modifying the conversation in the campaign folder. Certainly that is how I think I will propose we manage the doors in our mod unless we can come up with a way of changing the door properties by script.

PJ