332 réponses à ce sujet

[UltimoCrofto]

javierabegazo wrote...

Why do people insist that Length has anything to do with the quality of a game...?

With an RPG it has everything to do with quality.

Mass Effect 1 and 2 are both heavily flawed for being short RPGs, and the second is actually laughable from a story stand-point because you essentially go from -> gain party -> end boos -> finish. The story is all over the shop.

In Dragon Age you get a real feel and understanding of the world because you're spending so much time there. Granted, a lot of the non-important content isn't great, but all the major stuff is great and still equals a long, enjoyable and deep experience.

I keep seeing how BioWare and Bethesda try and swerve past the issue of shorter games; their main excuse usually is "shorter means better quality" but that's absolute BS to the highest degree. It's more a case of rushing a game instead of putting more time into enjoyable content.

Games like Morrowind, KotOR, Dragon Age, The Witcher and many more, all manage to be 70+ hour games with great story, and - mostly - great content. Therefore if I see the end credits for an RPG in less than 30 hours (which is the case for ME1 and 2 and Jade Empire) I consider it a flaw. It's an RPG.

Modifié par UltimoCrofto, 08 septembre 2010 - 07:55 .

[Aradace]

Monica83 wrote...

They can't they don't have time they must respect the release date even if they want change something.. EA pressure? i don't know i hope bioware is free to keep their decision if it not bad things for the future.. It's not the first time that EA ruins a game... When i eared from dragon age 2 i was excited with many question on my mind like:
Now they add qunari as a playalbe race? or
Now they add new weapons like spears or other things?
When i readed the gameplay topic and the dialoge wheel end the limitation to be an human.. And the cut they maded at the warrior to keep class stati...hem distinct!
eeeeeew.... im just worried this is become another one game for casual gamer....
A strong blow for who have the passion of roleplayng games

And because it's a business....Its something that has to be accepted...You dont have to like it....But you do have to accept it.  It's what the business wants in the end....The primary reason they even listen to the customer is just in case one of us puts a cool idea out here that they look at and say "Hey, that's pretty cool"...and then implement it.  Otherwise, most complaints (like the complaining most folks are doing about DA2) is tossed in the proverbial "file 17" and ultimately ignored because again, there arent enough people who are against it to matter and ultimately there WONT be enough to matter.

[Monica83]

please people lets sto to talking about votes and we return in topic i don't want a moderator close it

[Aradace]

Monica83 wrote...

please people lets sto to talking about votes and we return in topic i don't want a moderator close it

We techncially ARE on topic when you argue the semantics of it.

[Monica83]

I totally agree with Ultimo this guy taken the right point

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
People like to think they're part of some great whole and they're working together to get something done, but what they don't realise is that their individual presence as part of that whole doesn't matter at all.

"At all"? That's shockingly imprecise -- by your standards, anyway. The value of the individual's presence is very small, but not zero.

[Lumikki]

UltimoCrofto wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

Why do people insist that Length has anything to do with the quality of a game...?

With an RPG it has everything to do with quality.

Mass Effect 1 and 2 are both heavily flawed for being short RPGs, and the second is actually laughable from a story stand-point because you essentially go from -> gain party -> end boos -> finish. The story is all over the shop.

In Dragon Age you get a real feel and understanding of the world because you're spending so much time there. Granted, a lot of the non-important content isn't great, but all the major stuff is great and still equals a long, enjoyable and deep experience.

BS, DAO wasn't any better than Mass Effect, just different style that's all.

Games like Morrowind, KotOR, Dragon Age, The Witcher and many more, all manage to be 70+ hour games with great story, and - mostly - great content. Therefore if I see the end credits for an RPG in less than 30 hours (which is the case for ME1 and 2 and Jade Empire) I consider it a flaw. It's an RPG.

Just because someting last longer doesn't really make it better. It depense was the content inside that lenght also good quality. It's more like lenght is good if the quality inside the game stay's good. But long badly made game isn't better than short well done.

[the_one_54321]

And if you want to take it further and apply it to business practices, every sale and non-sale works exactly the as a vote, except even more so because the non-sales cannot be conceptually marginalized. Every potential sale that becomes a non-sale is a lost potential for revenue, and any good businessman will not just dismiss such potential losses to artificial marginalization until it has been verified that they strictly cannot be salvaged while simultaneously maintaining other sales.

We may be artificially marginalized in the end, but by voicing our opinions we are making our non-sale a non-zero effect value. It makes a difference, even if very small.

[AlanC9]

Aradace wrote...
Otherwise, most complaints (like the complaining most folks are doing about DA2) is tossed in the proverbial "file 17" and ultimately ignored because again, there arent enough people who are against it to matter and ultimately there WONT be enough to matter.

Unless there are enough people complaining that it would matter. Several features in NWN1 had to be altered late in development because of massive dissatisfaction with the game's direction.

Though I'm not at all certain how Bio determined that their design was wrong.

[Aradace]

UltimoCrofto wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

Why do people insist that Length has anything to do with the quality of a game...?

With an RPG it has everything to do with quality.

Mass Effect 1 and 2 are both heavily flawed for being short RPGs, and the second is actually laughable from a story stand-point because you essentially go from -> gain party -> end boos -> finish. The story is all over the shop.

In Dragon Age you get a real feel and understanding of the world because you're spending so much time there. Granted, a lot of the non-important content isn't great, but all the major stuff is great and still equals a long, enjoyable and deep experience.

I keep seeing how BioWare and Bethesda try and swerve past the issue of shorter games; their main excuse usually is "shorter means better quality" but that's absolute BS to the highest degree. It's more a case of rushing a game instead of putting more time into enjoyable content.

Games like Morrowind, KotOR, Dragon Age, The Witcher and many more, all manage to be 70+ hour games with great story, and - mostly - great content. Therefore if I see the end credits for an RPG in less than 30 hours (which is the case for ME1 and 2 and Jade Empire) I consider it a flaw. It's an RPG.

In a related topic, I posted a list of RPGs all made within the past 7 years that are UNDER 30 hours...My point being, 25-30 hours for an RPG is the SoP by todays standards....And yes, that list is VERY long all of which Ive played.  There is maybe MAYBE half that amount (10-15) that ARE over 30 hours so using DA:O and any other BioWare RPG as an example is irrelevant because they do NOT equal the 34-35 games on the list that ARE under 30 hours....So by todays standards, as long as you are getting 25-30 hours in an RPG, just shut up, play the game and get over it....that simple.

[Hollingdale]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

It's just very small.

Yes.  It is so small that it is not materially different from zero.

Indeed, but people think the same things at the same time, if one person has decided not to vote he is usually part of a larger voting group of a certain ''zeitgeist'' or spirit or mind or whatever, really don't know the right word. Not saying that it would change anything shoudl that person decided to vote, but the fact that he decided not to in the first place is usually indicative that many other people aren't gonna vote either, this can be used to predict the outcome of the election or poll.

People are better of spreading their ideas socially than voting

[Aradace]

AlanC9 wrote...

Aradace wrote...
Otherwise, most complaints (like the complaining most folks are doing about DA2) is tossed in the proverbial "file 17" and ultimately ignored because again, there arent enough people who are against it to matter and ultimately there WONT be enough to matter.

Unless there are enough people complaining that it would matter. Several features in NWN1 had to be altered late in development because of massive dissatisfaction with the game's direction.

Though I'm not at all certain how Bio determined that their design was wrong.

And you sir are one of the folks I was talking about before that apparently lives in a fantasy world where they think they (as an individual) matters.  "Unless there ARE".....Right, you DO realize (as Ive said in a previous post) that those of us on the forums are only a drop in the bucket to the actualy customer base right? Id repost everything I said in that comment but Ill paraphrase for you "Those that ARENT on the forums, a good portion, if not most, will buy the game on priciple alone simply because it has DA as a title" With that in mind, yea, the "complainers" are definately the minority and therefore ultimately dont matter.

[Hollingdale]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
People like to think they're part of some great whole and they're working together to get something done, but what they don't realise is that their individual presence as part of that whole doesn't matter at all.

"At all"? That's shockingly imprecise -- by your standards, anyway. The value of the individual's presence is very small, but not zero.

The value of the individual working in a social sphere has got a lot of potential, ideas spread.  Hence I feel that the whole ''vote'' thing is not an accurate metaphore for the situtation at hand.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Inaccurate again. Any vote is indeed the same as every vote. Equivilance. Vote equals equals vote. Equivilance is definitive. You cannot treat one separate from the others. You cannot say "remove just one vote." That is a hugely popular falacy that is... well hugely popular but a falacy.

When you vote, how many votes do you cast?  What happens if you don't?  Is one of the votes cast still yours?

Your vote is different in that it is yours.  You get to choose whether to cast it.  From your point of view your vite is therefore always unique, and different from all the others (which are equivalent to each other because you don't have any control over them).

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

"At all"? That's shockingly imprecise -- by your standards, anyway. The value of the individual's presence is very small, but not zero.

If it's so small as to be imperceptibly different from zero, does it matter?

[Wyndham711]

Lumikki wrote...

Just because someting last longer doesn't really make it better. It depense was the content inside that lenght also good quality. It's more like lenght is good if the quality inside the game stay's good. But long badly made game isn't better than short well done.

A long good RPG is better than a comparatively shorter good RPG.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Hollingdale wrote...

The value of the individual working in a social sphere has got a lot of potential, ideas spread.  Hence I feel that the whole ''vote'' thing is not an accurate metaphore for the situtation at hand.

That's a different issue.

If I don't like BioWare's direction, I spend time here trying to convince both them and their consumers of my position.  Whether I buy the game doesn't matter.

[Heavenblade]

I don't vote simply because not a single party represents my interests and I am doomed to never be represented in government. No one has offered to pay for my vote, but I'd sell it in a heartbeat because it is worthless to me.



Same with BioWare. As an individual, my opinion has ZERO weight. Like the conscious mind (AFAIK) or other properties in certain entities, the power of an opinion is an emergent property. You cannot say my opinion has value, simply because all opinions are valueless unless they are in sufficient quantity to create an emergent perception amongst those creating the end product. We're dealing with thresholds and huge margins of error here.



Voting is a very clever and shifty way to mask and deflect the fact that a vote is a binary choice: yes or no.



The only reason I spout my beliefs and opinions despite the pointlessness of it all is that is the only thing stopping me from going insane. And what any of this has to do with DA2 is nebulous to me. So I'll be quiet now.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Inaccurate again. Any vote is indeed the same as every vote. Equivilance. Vote equals equals vote. Equivilance is definitive. You cannot treat one separate from the others. You cannot say "remove just one vote." That is a hugely popular falacy that is... well hugely popular but a falacy.

When you vote, how many votes do you cast?  What happens if you don't?  Is one of the votes cast still yours?

Your vote is different in that it is yours.  You get to choose whether to cast it.  From your point of view your vite is therefore always unique, and different from all the others (which are equivalent to each other because you don't have any control over them).

It is distinct, yes, but it is still eqivilant. Lets say you have a set of [A, B, Z, W, A, U, A, T]. In this set there are three "A's" and they are distinct but also equivilant. A == A == A. To treat them individually is an analytical error. Assuming there are lots and lots of such items in a set, you could, strictly speaking, remove one "A" from the set and say that the end result is not changed but that in no way deminishes the quantified value of that element in the whole of the set. Equivilance within a summation. They are the same and cannot be analytically treated as separate from the whole.

A non-zero is always a non-zero  no matter how you try to play with its application.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 08 septembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[Heavenblade]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Hollingdale wrote...

The value of the individual working in a social sphere has got a lot of potential, ideas spread.  Hence I feel that the whole ''vote'' thing is not an accurate metaphore for the situtation at hand.

That's a different issue.

If I don't like BioWare's direction, I spend time here trying to convince both them and their consumers of my position.  Whether I buy the game doesn't matter.

Exactly. "voting with your pocketbook" is the most insane concept ever, because businesses run on profit, and any business can make a profit so long as they have at least a tiny market for their product. You cannot effect change so much as encourage others to create something new to cater to your tastes, and that can only be done through a perception of demand, AKA influencing enough others to share your position.

Buying or not buying a product as an individual does NOTHING.

[Hollingdale]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Hollingdale wrote...

The value of the individual working in a social sphere has got a lot of potential, ideas spread.  Hence I feel that the whole ''vote'' thing is not an accurate metaphore for the situtation at hand.

That's a different issue.

If I don't like BioWare's direction, I spend time here trying to convince both them and their consumers of my position.  Whether I buy the game doesn't matter.

I know I was just trying to direct the discussion from can't to can : P

[Akka le Vil]

Schwadragon wrote...

Do you include length as a factor in the quality of a book or a movie?

Storytelling NEEDS time. You can't develop a story, characters and the like without time. I like when a story know how to have a good pace. I'm not talking about dragging it out, of course, but taking the time necessary. I also expect a certain "amount" of playtime if I ever get a game. I don't want to waste my money on something that last only one afternoon of normal gaming - that's just ripp-off.

Also, if you want something to be epic, it has to be somehow big.

So yeah, length is a PART of what makes a game good - it's obvious it's certainly not the only factor, and that artificially lengthening a work is just making it worse, I'm talking about "true" length. I expect a certain amount of game, as said, and the longer the better (provided no dive in quality, but that's part of the deal to have consistent quality).

[Simalarion]

Monica wrote
"I accept your suggestion.. But you must understeand im a deep lover of
rpg games.. The best one for me about storyline sidequest companions was
baldour's gate 2 since i don't watch gameplay i watch the
roleplaybility of the game.. If a game have 6 classes great animation
but those classes are static maded with no sense choice in terms of
roleplaybility like the dual and bow only for rogue.. Im limited to
build my character... I loved origins and i play all classes with all
specialization i finished the game so many times i just love it!... Now
this sequels seems to be a interactive action adventure story from what i
read.. its a bit different from an rpg.. im just worried for it because
i love dragon age..And ok mass effect series can be nice but is bad if
dragon age 2 follows that way.."

AMEN to that .

I thought Dragon Age origins was to cinematic and pretty far away from the Baldurs Gate like RPG i was hoping for, no i hear they go even futher away and it no sounds like a clean consol game with more cinemathic and no overhead view at all. They clearly want to sell to the masses now, and the games take the same way as hollywood movies. 

Yes im sure they will make much money this way, but the game will never have stabel fans like the Baldurs Gate serie, the masses will buy it chew up the cinematics and go on...

Sorry Bioware seems like you are going the way i was hoping you would not...

edit:
Oh, and now i cant even play DA becouse it says my download is not validated, and i cant start the game at all becouse of all the tine expansion you made me pay for. I googled the problem and i see many have the same problem, i have not found a fix that work, i cant play it. I understand you trye to stop piracy but this is realy shooting youre own leg.

Modifié par Simalarion, 08 septembre 2010 - 08:45 .

[AlanC9]

Aradace wrote...
And you sir are one of the folks I was talking about before that apparently lives in a fantasy world where they think they (as an individual) matters.  "Unless there ARE".....Right, you DO realize (as Ive said in a previous post) that those of us on the forums are only a drop in the bucket to the actualy customer base right? Id repost everything I said in that comment but Ill paraphrase for you "Those that ARENT on the forums, a good portion, if not most, will buy the game on priciple alone simply because it has DA as a title" With that in mind, yea, the "complainers" are definately the minority and therefore ultimately dont matter.

Do you have any actual reason to think that the folks who don't post here are that much stupider than the ones who do?

Edit: and this from a guy who thinks that popular opinion is a reliable guide to game quality?

Edit again: what I said about NWN1's development history is known fact. The game had major changes to gameplay aspects that had been nearly universally denounced. If forum chatter has zero effect and this was just a coincidence, what was the actual cause? The developers just coming to their sense?

Modifié par AlanC9, 08 septembre 2010 - 10:08 .

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

"At all"? That's shockingly imprecise -- by your standards, anyway. The value of the individual's presence is very small, but not zero.

If it's so small as to be imperceptibly different from zero, does it matter?

Sure. Perceptions aren't reality.