[quote]Shia Luck wrote...
[quote]Genisys wrote...
[quote]Shia Luck wrote...
I think it's reasonable and normal to find another person's server rules annoying or without enough justification, taking into account your own beliefs.
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Since when did the penalty of death become a rule?[/quote]
Since the moment you logged into a server. Servers have rules.
Don't take it out of context. The point about the bit you quoted (and the bit you didn't quote), is that you can express an opinion without calling someone, or someone's decisions, "stOOpid".
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I find it incredibly prejudicial to start saying decisions are "asinine" or "stOOpid" if you disagree with losing your XP or gear. To then vote 1 on NWVault is the height of egotestical arrogance. I know Genisys used to vote that way.
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Your talking about 2 entirely different things here, one which applies to this thread, and one which is about something that happened on the nwvault.ign.com, um, how long ago? If you got something against me that's fine, but that doesn't mean your right here either... [/quote]
Less than 2 years ago. According to a recent post you made you were 11 in 1981 (Did I remember that correctly?) .. 2 years is not that long ago in terms of maturity if you are now about 40. TBH I used to think you were a petulant egotestical 13 year old and so never bothered to argue with you. Obviously I was wrong, and in hindsight I apologise for assuming things about you. Now I am trying to debate with you as if you are a mature person. Can we do that? Because I am afraid you will have to live with your past for as long as people remember how badly you acted. That does not mean you will never be forgiven. I personally think you are no worse now on BSN than any number of other highly opinionated posters, which is another reason I risked responding to what I view as poor arguments and pedantisism in this thread. Are you serious about being a better person or is this all PR? Are you able to debate and receive criticism these days?
The judgement of whether I am right or not is decided individually by anyone who reads this thread/my posts and will likely only apply to them. Two perfectly reasonable people might disagree about how right or wrong I am. Few people have the detailed knowledge you & I have about your previous NWVault existence... or the circumstances of your disappearance from NWVault. And it can remain that way if you like. (If you don't remember who I am, send me a Pm and I'll prove to you exactly how nice I am being by not talking about everything I know in public.) As I said, you are acting normally, mostly, on BSN. I have no vendetta against you. I mentioned quite a few people in my post, you were but one of them. If you look back you'll see it was someone else who talked about giving a 1. You were just another example. Don't assume everything revolves around you and your opinion. I quoted a fact about the way you used to vote, that's all.
Let's get back to the point shall we?
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Yet my opinion is death has to carry some penalty else there is no challenge in the fight.
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The challenge isn't found in failure, the challenge is found in trying, regaurdless if you fail or succeed.[/quote]
The level of challenge is not judged by someone's success or failure. Level of challenge is determined by the difficulty of the problem and the consequences of getting it wrong. When you risk losing something the challenge is greater than if life is constantly easy and nothing is at stake, no? Assuming a failure of facing the challenge is not a counter argument to my point.
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(And if you don't want to party with anyhone else ever, there is no reason to be playing MP.)
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Many players I've met are not very sociable, that doesn't mean they can't play in a world without being penalized for not having a party member with them, nor should Multi-Player be 100% about partying either... [/quote]
?? ...OK, you need an argument to support your position or help me understand that. MP IS about playing with other people. If all someone does is solo, then why why risk the lag monster? Why not play SP?
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Half your arguments concern the way you have to please all players,
which is not actually going to be possible, and yet often you're
assuming all players are like you, no?
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I didn't say you have to please them, but I did say you need to consider them, if nobody like a setting (like hard core for example) it is not kissing the player's behind to turn off hardcore, though, if you like it and leave it on, but your the only person on the server and you can't understand why nobody is playing on your server, then that's not any player's fault.[/quote]
Do you realise that the point I was making is your argument depends on everyone acting the same way or no? The point of my argument is that people are different and so you never will get a everyone/no-one situation. Repeating the argument to me doesn't change that. My point is your argument, although logical, has no relevance, because the situation will never arise. Someone will like it, someone will hate it, and some people will play anywhere no matter what the rules are 'cos they are playing with their friends.
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I was trying to be factual, and though I may have said asinine & stOOpid about a few "ideas" they were not directed at any one person in particular, I just don't like the ideas... [/quote]
As I said: Don't assume it is all about you. Someone else used the word asinine. You both appeared to be examples of a position I argue against, nothing more.
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I assumed nothing, I have observed players as a Server Admin / DM & listened to countless players say things about different aspects of the game, therefore a person can come to learn what many & in some cases most players do not like and more importantly what they do like. I definitely do not think all players are like me, nor do I think they are all the same, but I do know what many players do not like, and that helps me to understand many fellow players.[/quote]
You hosted a very high magic HnS server. You also constantly made posts about how you were not getting any players. How do you think your experience of your playerbase represents the average NWNer? (if such a creature exists). I claim you are making assumptions and I think I am proving it.
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If you read the Dungeons & Dragons advanced books, the quickest thing you learn what is very important about being a good DM, and that is captivating your audiences attention & HOLDING IT... There is nothing fantastical or fun about dying or death penalties,... [/quote]
I did not claim there was an intrinsic fun thing about death. Although someone else (Ben maybe?) made a very good argument about how death can be the most rewarding RP experience. Other people have also contributed ways in which death or the death plane can be used for enjoyable player experience. You view death as respawn time and a failure I think. The point of this thread is to debate what death can or could mean. Presupposing it means respawn or is fundamentally a negative experience is to miss the whole debate.
[quote]... in fact, it's best to consider the others who don't otherwise your only catering your module to a select handful of players, and that would be a mistake. [/quote]
NO. It is only a mistake if your purpose in hosting a server is to please everyone or have large numbers of players. The whole point of my previous post is that it is ok to host a server that only a few people like. If they like it and you all have fun, what is the problem?
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So, to answer the original poster and the remaks made by SHia, it's not the penalty that matters, nor does death matter, but if players don't like it, and you hear a lot of people complain about it, doesn't that mean something?[/quote]
Sorry, but that is not answering either me or the OP. It is changing the question. The thread is called "Death and dying penalty", no?
Your argument so far has been "if you don't have players you have got something wrong in your design." (To put it philosophically, in this context you are assuming a connection between a strict death penalty and a lack of players on a server yet presenting no proof of this. 1: you assume the question and move straight onto how to solve the consequences in a circular argument. 2: The point of the thread is to debate the question. 3: The very fact that people on this thread are arguing for different types of death penalty means different people like different things therefore "lack of players=too strict death penalty" is a false assumption.
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I suppopse there may be a point in carrying on this debate, maybe to prove I'm correct, or to prove your wrong, but honestly, I don't care to. Personally, I don't care what people think about me anymore, and yes that was hard to learn. I started focusing on my business, and now the only thing that matters is getting and KEEPING customers.
If you can apply business to NWN, you would see why players are the customers, they are ultimately who you want to please & ultimately why you would host an online game, to invite and have players.
Like your argument goes, otherwise just play offline, or on a LAN game, no need to please anyone..
I for one love the NWN game, but it's a lot of work to build a module, so if your gonna take the time, why not make a good one players will love? Online or Offline..
If your going to host a server, all rules aside, if the players aren't having fun, they will just leave.
If anyone thinks restrictive gameplay is fun, or enforcing rules on everyone, which aren't player friendly, then continue to adhere to your chosen decisions, and in the end, only the player count will tell the true story..
As far as my old server(s) "Underworld" / "Evermeet" / or "Axis", these were great lessons for me, it's not every day your going to run into a builder who has built 3 server modules, and then some more. Single Player modules are a lot different from Server Modules, by far. I have experience as a builder / dm / player, and in D&D, so why question my knowledge base? I could be wrong, but why argue with me, it's going to be hard to persuade me to think your way, when in truth, I've learned for myself a lot about the game and players.
You're going out of your way to prove everything I say as either false, innacurate, or implying something to the likes of one or both. Therefore, are we debating, or are you just wanting to flat out argue or show everyone I don't know anything? Lol, I highly doubt that I know nothing, nor do I think my opinion(s) are way off base either as you go out of your way to imply. ^
Ultimately, I made a few points in my earlier post, and those are, if you build for all the different kinds of players, you will be diversified, not deworsified, which is indicative to those servers that go out of their way to create "Systems" which are neither fun nor do they really make a world more fantasty like.
You can tell when someone is building by what they "think" is correct, or when someone is building for the players, there is a significant difference, and the players can sense it very easilly. What ultimately makes or breaks it for players is their sense that the module was designed for them, and not tailored to meet the builder's desires. There is a fine line between building the module to your taste and building for the players. The only question you have to ask yourself is:
Who are you building for?
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Lame <<<That all there is to say really..
