98 réponses à ce sujet

[Eradrain]

Mirgalen wrote...

I wish people would still play this game the way it was intended and less like a console game.

Bioware didn't make NWN for you classic, hard-core D&D players.  They made it for a mainstream video-game RPG audience.

[Shadooow]

Mirgalen wrote...

I wish people would still play this game the way it was intended and less like a console game.

And I wish people respected other styles of playing this game not just their own.:innocent:

[FR Mulm]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Mirgalen wrote...

I wish people would still play this game the way it was intended and less like a console game.

And I wish people respected other styles of playing this game not just their own.:innocent:

If you look through this thread it is not the people who like hardcore penalties that have thrown the stones for the most part.

[FR Mulm]

Eradrain wrote...

Mirgalen wrote...

I wish people would still play this game the way it was intended and less like a console game.

Bioware didn't make NWN for you classic, hard-core D&D players.  They made it for a mainstream video-game RPG audience.

Actually they made it for both by allowing us to customize it to our taste. Otherwise it would be Dragon Age or something like that and not somethign that we can mess with as a Community. 

So it is for the classic hard core role players as well as the casual role rplayer and the action player and Bob I-Play-Drow-Girls-Dressed-In-Leather social types.

[Genisys]

Lol FR Mulum, you are correct, NWN was made to be customizable to suite all Player's taste, in fact, it's the fact that sooo many different options are available in NWN that makes it STILL one of the best games ever created in the RPG world.

Those that hold the view that the game should be one way or another have rights to their opinion, though anyone seeking hard-core can simply go play offline. Server modules need special consideration for ALL players, and making things inflexible or strenuous to all is NOT a solution, it's a problem.

If you make a system that has OPTIONAL settings, like I opt NOT to play hard core, or I opt to play hard core, then that's different than forcing ALL players to play one way.

My criticism has stayed in this line, and will continue in this line till builders smell the coffee, you have GOT TO HAVE OPTIONS, or players will feel like they are a trapped mouse in a maze running around looking for cheese, BORING!

Two things that makes NWN great are:

1) Options (first and foremost)
2) Freedom (Also equally important as the first)

Those that choose to restrict or limit game play make a grave error in judgment. And that is saying a mouthful!

Modifié par Genisys, 19 septembre 2010 - 02:51 .

[FR Mulm]

If a server adds hardcore settings and you do not wish to play it then do not log into it. It is that easy to do.



If a server has free resting and respawn and you do not like that, do not log into it.



If you want to run around WoW style or PvP or sleep with a bearded Stout woman as that tickles your pickle then find the server for you.



But expecting all servers to have all those options is like me expecting McDonalds to serve a nice pasta dinner with a glass of wine.



If I go to McDonalds I get McDonalds food. If I go to Olive Garden I get the pasta.

[Shadooow]

Genisys wrote...

Lol FR Mulum, you are correct, NWN was made to be customizable to suite all Player's taste, in fact, it's the fact that sooo many different options are available in NWN that makes it STILL one of the best games ever created in the RPG world.

Those that hold the view that the game should be one way or another have rights to their opinion, though anyone seeking hard-core can simply go play offline. Server modules need special consideration for ALL players, and making things inflexible or strenuous to all is NOT a solution, it's a problem.

You are wrong Genisys really.

You are looking into this issue  just from players perspective. But also builder has option to make the server as he wish to have it. He don't need to be concerned about player count, he don't have to want his server to be for all players. He don't have to listen to you .

Personally, Im making PW for action players and I truly do not wish some hardcore roleplayers suggesting me features they need for play like hunger, thirsty. I pointed this on my wiki page very clearly, so I actually disallowed these players to enter my world. I don't think there even is a server that would suit all players. And I think such server cannot be even made.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 19 septembre 2010 - 03:26 .

[SHOVA]

Got to agree with ShaDoOW, I do not build for all players either. I also will not Smell the coffee, even though I love the smell of coffee. I could care less if I have 100s, or 1 player log into my games, I build what I like, Period, as I am building for my Enjoyment and Fun, not the possibility of Hundreds of strangers who log in. If those people do log in, and enjoy it, great, if not, Move on, there are loads of other servers out there, maybe those will be what they want it to be.

[Genisys]

I'm going to separate my comments so people can depict what they want to discuss.



Hard Core RP Lovers can go into ANY module and RP, it's not like you have to suite the module to their taste, when in fact, it's not really the module that matters to RP it's their character & Acting out, it's not about action in the least.



D&D & NWN should never really be about Player Vs Player, but that's an opinion (even though in the D&D books states this). But that doesn't mean you can't build a module for this, because some players do like it.



Action is great, I've always loved the Action aspect of D&D and NWN, this is truly where the game is for many.



Storyline just like all the other styles of play, should be optional, not forced, as it is in some modules.



Higher Ground did an excellent job in tailoring their module to suit a wide variety of different player's taste, truly. Though Higher Ground's server is rather Uber in many player's opinion, in fact I've seen players log in, ask what the weapon / armor range was in a module and log off never to return on different modules. This is a travesty because they are judging a module by it's cover and never giving it a chance.



Is it impossible to include options without tailoring your module to ONE Style of game play? Am I wrong to think it's possible?



I have more to say, but a client just called, chow..

[Shadooow]

Genisys wrote...

Hard Core RP Lovers can go into ANY module and RP, it's not like you have to suite the module to their taste, when in fact, it's not really the module that matters to RP it's their character & Acting out, it's not about action in the least.

All of them I know, and in czech republic there is very strong community of hardcore roleplayers, they claims they just can't. The module must be tailored for them with various hardcore systems, and especially all players must play by their taste. That means, other players must play with them, mustn't use OOC or tells etc...

EDIT: Also, you are one of them? If not, why you speak for them:P

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 19 septembre 2010 - 04:54 .

[HipMaestro]

Genisys wrote...
Two things that makes NWN great are:

1) Options (first and foremost)
2) Freedom (Also equally important as the first)

Those that choose to restrict or limit game play make a grave error in judgment. And that is saying a mouthful!

It's not what ones can bite off.  Rather, it's what one can chew and digest.

I suspect you are selling yourself short, Genisys, with this rather limited view of the unique potential of a broadly-customizable gaming utility which the NWN tools host.

The Death/Death Penalties issue is just one in a vast library of aspects that the game allows the community to control and develop.  In my limited view, it is just another game-balancing, game-refining element.  Consider the CEP.  Redefining the game mechanics was done to address gameplay issues that were (and still are!) considered refinements of the basic engine to more accurately reflect the preferences of the active community.  The CEP cosmetics were just part of what it is seeking to achieve.  So much else was modified to balance and cultivate the basic game, it has become an entirely different experience.  And the CEP is just one example, as I am sure you are fully aware.

So those "limitations" or "restrictions" to which you are referring and condemning are, in essence, a reflection of creativity of designers to provide a more realistic atmosphere which players, who enjoy and appreciate those aspects of gaming, can access.  It's hardly a "grave error".  I suspect it was very intentionally integrated to provide a unique experience for a specific audience and never intended to placate the masses.  There are too many cups and too many flavors of tea to attempt to pour. Let us not digress into a debate of the supposed inherent right of mass opinion to dictate the absolutes for all.  

The "freedom" to which you've alluded can be applied to the expression of an individual's creativity just as equally as a individual player's preference for unbounded gaming interactions.  It should be blatantly obvious by this point that the polarization has created two distinct "tastes" with very few that tread the continuum between the extremes.  It's more efficient to create an environment which satisfies a limited preference than an all-encompassing one.  Not impossible, but requiring intensive effort to produce an effective product... a matter of diminishing returns for the effort afforded.  I laud the original BioWare staff for providing a mechanism to extend their own efforts to address a global market.

The most interesting aspect of the discussion (to me, anyway) is that those who accept the obvious consequences of "death" (as pertaining to "termination of a PC") seem to be perfectly at ease with the proliferation of environments which impose no such "restrictions", while the other polar group (granted, based on just this limited sample) appears to feel their gaming freedom has been compromised somehow.

But that's the real beauty, isn't it?  We all get to coexist in a multi-faceted community, where "No stone has been left unturned." so to speak, interacting via a source of infinite possibilities.

A great thread!  If it's been debated before, I was napping! 

[Genisys]

Ok, back to the matter at hand here...

To answer you ShaDoOow, I don't really get into RP, personally, other than using the voice options while playing my character, doing some silly emotes, stuff like that..

I love Action, and while I can handle Uber or Lower Level modules, provided it's not collect 1,000 Rat Pelts to get 100 XP / Gold, that stuff just makes me want to scream, sorry..

I love Group Play, interacting with players, and I definitely like a Good DM hosting, where they lead adventures and make it fun for all in the adventure.

To me D&D and NWN is about having fun, no matter who your with, what module you're on, or server for that matter. If you can have fun, then do it, and if a server really isn't your cup O tea, that's ok too, because there are a lot of different styles of servers.

The Bioware staff did a great job of doing their best to show us a nice module in the Original Campaigns, furthermore, they did a fabulous job separating servers by styles of play. Though, I've found 2 or 3 to be more popular than the other Styles.

Everyone has a right to build a module anyway they want, they can tailor the module to any taste they like too, never said you couldn't nor did I say it was wrong...

I did say, that if you want a higher player count, you will need to consider your players first, and that's what I have redundantly restated throughout all of my post. Some may not want players, and that becomes obvious when you log onto their server.. (woosh!)

But if you're going to go through all of that trouble to make a server, shouldn't you build it for the community and the players in the community, or why not make single player modules which you can host on a special password protected server or even a LAN, if all that you want to do is play with your buddies locally...

No matter what your choice is, enjoy, cheers, and game on... Fair yee well...

P.S. When I said Options & Freedom, I mean game play & building, not one or the other..

Modifié par Genisys, 20 septembre 2010 - 04:47 .

[tmanfoo]

What if we just want to play by ourselves, but we want everyone to know that we're doing it?

[ffbj]

Well you don't see many Local Vaults up anymore. Apparently players have made their choice apparent there. I find it amusing when players will say that this is the way the game is to be played, no if, ands, or buts. But it can be played as many ways as can be devised, which is the beauty of the game from a designers perspective, as pointed out by Hip Mestro.



There are levels of variations that imo do take the game away to one extreme or the other or alterations of core concepts and rules that kind of go klunk, at least for me. But it is a game after all and as such it must have rules, guidelines, familiar signposts that players can rely on. That is even is far afield implementations the core rules don't just change willy-nilly,

(unless of course a DM is on, and then the very laws of the worldverse can be obliterated).



So bottom line you have this center line as regards the rules and concepts upon which the game was based. Rest, wounds, armor, magic...etc...Then you diverge from that line with each of the core concepts and perhaps add embellishments here and there. So I have fatigue, rest restrictions, persistent faction relationships, reputation, stuff like that. Another server may have all that and more, or less.



It does not matter what all it has if it's well done and perhaps integrated into a story. Mine is a hodge-podge admitedly but it works pretty well as jaded gamers or over 35 years xp still play and compliment me on it. But it's my vision of a world created with the various tools provided.

In 'Orilion Nights' many concepts: spawning mechanisms, combat ai, reputation, were developed by me and others and have been integrated into the game to complete that vision.



So you are painting a picture, or composing a song, something for consumption. Others may or may not like it or think this picture is all wrong the perspective is awful, or I don't like Dadaist's, whaterver. You can only lay it out there and hope people appreciate and don' t be too concerned after that. (sorry for the long rant).

[Mirgalen]

Genisys wrote...

Hard Core RP Lovers can go into ANY module and RP, it's not like you have to suite the module to their taste, when in fact, it's not really the module that matters to RP it's their character & Acting out, it's not about action in the least.

D&D & NWN should never really be about Player Vs Player, but that's an opinion (even though in the D&D books states this). But that doesn't mean you can't build a module for this, because some players do like it.

Action is great, I've always loved the Action aspect of D&D and NWN, this is truly where the game is for many.

Storyline just like all the other styles of play, should be optional, not forced, as it is in some modules.

I agree with most of this. I strongly disagree however with the first statement. One player CANNOT go to any module (SP/MP/PW) and RP. I am not sure where you got that idea. If it was the case we RPers would not need to advocate so strongly to defend our gaming way (and remember we have no other game to play this way and PnP with guys all over the world is out of the question).

Do you mean that in your opinion RP is conversation only (and therefore as long as the module provide options for multiple alignments it can be called RP friendly)?

RP is a lot more than that as you may learn from this guide:
http://vnfiles.ign.c...GuideLetter.pdf

Here a small extract:
"While playing the game, be your character. Everything you say and do should be something that your character would say and do... not what you the player would do..."

To me it is Everything you do must be RP.
It starts with character creation and continues with everything your character is going to do in the game. This could include walking vs running all the time for no reason. No looting for NPC houses or opening tombs for no reasons (e.g. paladin). No combats designed in such a way that hit-run-rest-repeat is the only way to survive (again not very paladin or knight like). 

As you can imagine RPers and non RPers cannot really be in the same team. Like the last time I had my local server opened (even though it was under Roleplaying) some powergamer dude came and started killing everything after saying "Follow Me!" resulting in alignment shifts and a module unplayable.

Also, if the module is designed for powergamers, RPers are going to have a very hard time to simply survive. For example, I am currently playing a blind wrestler (monk) in "Eye of the Beholder" with Karvon and a small group of players. This character is viable in this setting even though once and a while he may find himself behind. I believe that in a non RP friendly module Sam Sork (inspired by a well known hero) would not last very long.    

In fact most SP/MP modules (including those premium modules we paid for) and PWs are simply not RP friendly.

And to clarify the original question:

Death should be permanent unless there a RP reason not to be (e.g. raise dead...). I am not sure what would be the RP reason for respawning on the spot as a result reloading is often the only alternative. I also see no RP reason for any kind of XP penalty, is this some kind of memory loss? Wouldn't something like restoration cure that?   

[ehye_khandee]

Genisys wrote...
Those that hold the view that the game should be one way or another have rights to their opinion, though anyone seeking hard-core can simply go play offline. Server modules need special consideration for ALL players, and making things inflexible or strenuous to all is NOT a solution, it's a problem.
... 

Those that choose to restrict or limit game play make a grave error in judgment. And that is saying a mouthful!

I maintain no ONE module can be all things to all PLAYERs/DMs - some degree of specialization is warranted, those who like pistachio will find theirs, just as the fans of chocolate or vanilla will too. BUILDERS should build to suit their desires, often as not, an audience will find them who can appreciate the effort of the BUILDER.

Now, while I don't try to be all things to all people - I _do_ try to give as many in-game options as possible (read 'not conflicted with the story being told nor unfair to other players').

My 2 cents. 

[simomate]

death penalty are important for enjoyment, as it encourages the player NOT to die. To do whatever he can to avoid death. But the penalty should not be to high either because the average player does not like having to redo all their hard work. It should be something that takes 2hours to regain no higher.



OR



If the PW has long dungeons, then their should be no penalty. The only penalty should be "ugh I have to redo the dungeon"



OR



For hardcore PW: Permanent Death. This would be good if the game was newer, but NWN is old and it's harder to attract players to your PW. So I do not suggest that you even think about that.

[omen_shepperd]

When I started into the realm of PW hosting a few years back I approached the situation as a former player trying to build something players will like. This took place during NWN’s times of significantly higher player numbers so the range of tastes players had ranged greatly as well. My first standpoint was that death and dying had to be a dangerous thing. We were hosting under the RP section of gamespy and felt we were in competition with a few different servers for player attention. After the server went down I went back to playing and my views of death and dying have change a few times through the years since. I plan on hosting my new server under social so I don't think I will be implying harsh death and dying penalties. The beauty of this game is the ability to have different views and opinions of what one likes and dislikes. As far a permadeath goes I have only ever felt the need to use it in one situation as a punishment. The result would have been to permakill a number of characters that were granted to players that definitely threw the balance of the server off and caused a lot of in-game and out of game problems . I ended up just shuting down the server as going through the permakill would have done that anyway. But now after getting older and reading many different situations that members of the community have posted my view has changed. I will not use permadeath as a punishment on anyone but I also make every effort to not put myself into situations where players start disturbing others ability to play. When bad things occur I try to end them ASAP to try to keep the story going. Hopefully since the numbers have dwindled down the number of players that like to cause disruptions, grief and so on are few to be seen .

[ffbj]

One thing I did regarding PvP was to put in a script in the ondeath of the PC comparing levels of the killer and victim. If killer and victim are within 2 levels of each other there is no xp award, if killer is over 2 levels higher than the victim they lose xp 500 per level difference, and it works the opposite if you are lower level than the victim. So you could get players of lower level ganging up on a player, attempting a grief in that way, but it does sort of remove the point of griefing much lower level PC's. I also put in contract kills so you can put a contract out on another PC. Of course this will shift you alignment from lawful to chaotic and towards evil.

[Genisys]

RP Is possible anywhere, at any time, nough said..

[tmanfoo]

Guile, you look funny without the hair.

[Khuzadrepa]

Genisys wrote...

RP Is possible anywhere, at any time, nough said..

If you don't RP more than doing emotes and voices, how do you know this?

[SHOVA]

This topic is opinion at best, as the game was made to change to the tastes of the player/builder. If you prefer a game where there is, or is not a penalty, then you can find one on line now. If you prefer a Solo-play game, instead of online play, then that is also available, in at last count 1000s of choices. It does not mater at all what the death penalty is, or isn't in a current PW, or what anyone here thinks it should be, as it is up to the host of that PW as to what is good for players and what will attract new players. Most hosts do not care what is going on here, as they tend to stay on their own PW forums. Even after all of that, if you still have not found what is to your taste, you can build your own. While that is my opinion, I humbly submit, where are the hosts of the PWs your talking about here? They are obviously not chiming in about it. Its all well and good to post your own thoughts on what constitutes an acceptable death penalty, and what PWs have the best, most popular, or what not, but seriously, the bast presumption that PWs want to attract new players, that they should change the core of the game that they host, to suit those new players, is at best, arrogance. At worst it will only cause admin type problems.



To reinforce my take on this, I ask you Genisys, as it is your statements that have spawned this, if you were hosting one of your mods now, and 20 hardcore RP gamers logged in and stated you should switch to Perm death, and low end magic items, +2 or less, would you change the mod to suit the players? would it mater if you only had 2 other players who did not want it to change? What if you had 20 that did not want it to change?



The fact of the mater is NWN, will never ever have the numbers it once did. Most players who are still playing online, have found their home, very few will switch. Those that do switch, will probably leave only after some type of admin infused problems, aka, changing the core game to suit one type of player taste.

[FR Mulm]

Just a small little point out that this is now on its 4th page and has I think the most replies of any topic in the NWN Forums.

With that said I will make some assumptions off the post here.

1/ There is a hundreds way to die and deal with death.

2/ There is a hundred ways for Guile to not get it. No reason to argue and beat the dead horse I think anymore.

3/ You can see a clear divide between the Old School PnPers and the New Skoolz GTA Crowd. No surprise there.

4/ A big surprise to who the Old School and New Skoolz is as age seems like it really does not matter which I find rather neat.