84 réponses à ce sujet

[just_frank]

First I should start by saying that I'm not a fan of creature scaling. It ruined oblivion for me (along with random loot), though they made it somewhat well enough in fallout.

No I'd done my research before I bough Dragon Age and I knew that there would be some scaling but I was reassured by multiple devposts on the old forums that there would be some kind of Floors and Celings so it seemed as though it would be fine.

Now my experience of this has been somehwat disappointing. I've maxed the survival trait for a while and really all I see are opponents that match my party's average level quite consistently. Now I realise there's no real simple way to do this for the main Arc because it has huge sections and is non-linear-ish. It has to stay compellingly hard (and could somehow be jutified naratively as the blight gets stronger over time).

However, there are some elements of the scaling that make very little sense. I've completed a fair number of the main story line, beaten some pretty stong opponents (dragons, revenant etc...). I have really really enjoyed the game over all.

So why have the random encounters been allowed to scale on a 1:1 basis as well. At level 15, I randomly encounter a pack of wolves (10-12) that swarm my party and quckly overwhelm it.... I'm on my way back from beating a Dragon. Why are the street thugs in the back alleys of the city now a group of 14-15 level 15 thugs? Conscript them in the army sir! you'll win. On the same front, there's a bloodmage sidequest in one of the cities, and with regard to the order in which you play the main quest, this rabble of city bloodmages will be nearly twice the level of the master bloodmages you encountered earlier in the game.

The point is this.

There are some parts of the game, such as side quests and random encounters, where the scaling ceilings should be set more aggressively low. Otherwise, you end up breaking the sense of "getting stronger" that an RPG of this scope should provide.

Questions...
How can/should this be fixed?
Should it be modded or officiallyt patched?

Blah...  Still loving the game otherwise, just feel like I could be loving it more.

BTW I think they got the random loot tables and special loot placement just about right.

[Dynamomark]

I don't understand what's the problem of encounters being close to 1:1. Would you rather they be 1 : 0.1? This would put me to sleep. Where's the fun in that? Bioware implemented some scaling mechanics and I like them. Encounters have floors and ceilings in terms of the levels, so earlier or later you do become more powerful than the enemies in those encounters. Also, once you visit an area, monsters there can no longer change their level.

[crossover.attack]

I think his point may be that the mission/main quest battles should be challenging, but the random monster encounters shouldn't be more difficult than the boss fight 5 minutes ago. Of course that could be addressed by simply having a smaller mob at 1:1 --- something that would please a lot of people.

[Pseudo310]

just_frank: I picked up Dragon Age for the same reason. Oblivion was ridiculous. Being able to run through the whole game at level 1 defeats a lot of the fun and exploration for me. And you're right, I have noticed that encounters do seem to scale with you significantly also in this which is very disappointing. I doubt we'll see an official patch that can change it but I think we can count on some fan-made content and maybe a mod to change this.

[just_frank]

Dynamomark wrote...

I don't understand what's the problem of encounters being close to 1:1. Would you rather they be 1 : 0.1? This would put me to sleep. Where's the fun in that? Bioware implemented some scaling mechanics and I like them. Encounters have floors and ceilings in terms of the levels, so earlier or later you do become more powerful than the enemies in those encounters. Also, once you visit an area, monsters there can no longer change their level.

Yes I think some encounters should have much lower ceilings.

I think overall more attention should have been given to what scales and by how much of a +/- factor and where the floors ceilings should be. Just a few tweaks (e.g., thugs and wolves) would make for a much more varied, interesting, and realistic (regarding the narrative) experience.

[NiMhBatt]

There is an inherent problem that you aren't seeing Dynamomark, in terms of suspension of belief. Were this an RTS it might not be such a big deal. He's not saying that all encounters should be made less than 1:1 but if after dealing with a dragon you are set upon by some common street rabble or a wolves you'd think that it might not be near as taxing as that battle with the dragon.



I think the OP is stating that in some encounters there doesn't seem to be a ceiling.. such as with the wolves he mentioned.

[Dynamomark]

Perhaps having a smaller pack or flock or whatever attack people would please them, but it's not like they are walking in a butterfly garden. If the size of the wolf pack concerns someone, they can take some survival skills or find a way to kill them. Progressing levels does give you more options. It's true scaling a mob to your level gives proportionally  more options to them, but I don't think the AI has enough brain to take as much advantage of that as a player. 

And I also have no problem with random encounters being harder than a boss battle. I remember when I was 10, I thought I could take anyone in my class, but one time I came across a bunch of 7 or 8 year olds and they owned me. That was a big life lesson for me.

I do like the combinations in random encounters idea -l like thugs with their pet wolves, etc. Variety is always good. This could have cured my boredom when I played Storm of Zehir.

[Thoramis]

well oblivions difficulty could be set higher which with my level 22 character was a challenge every now nd again. but i think the difficulty is fine on this game even though there are some instances.

[kal_torak]

Before the game was released I read a dev saying that DAO had a bit of scaling but not much.



But in my experience, the game is completly scaled. Every fight at any level is about the same.



Totally balanced yes, but thats not good imo for an rpg.

[hannahb]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How interesting is that line above? Thats the 1:1 random encounters over and over .. fun for a bit but monotonous.

-------/\\\\---------\\\\/-------/\\\\------/\\\\-----------\\\\/------------\\\\/-------\\\\/-----------\\\\/-------------/\\\\-------/\\\\----------------/\\\\---

That line has little arrrows pointing up and down ... up equals harder down equals easier. Its a little more interesting and keeps you wondering what will happen next if you dont know the progression.

Personally I'd rather have 1:? than 1:1 any day.

Modifié par hannahb, 11 novembre 2009 - 03:17 .

[hannahb]

sorry for the formatting but the thing is quirky. you still get the idea

[just_frank]

Thoramis wrote...

well oblivions difficulty could be set higher which with my level 22 character was a challenge every now nd again. but i think the difficulty is fine on this game even though there are some instances.

My comments about scaling ahve nothing to do with difficulty. I'm fine with the game that are bloody hard (not that I find DAO that ahrd at all on normal). I enjoy it. My point is about consistency within the narative structure of the world they've created. With scaling as it is now some things just make very little sense.

Also...  I understand that the Devs tried to settle some of that with the idea that level may be set when you enter an area/encounter. This somewhat worked in Fallout because you might enconter some mutants, get your ass kicked and run away to come back later.

The mechanic in this game doesnt work as well because of the way that radom encounters and sidequest areas are designed. They're discontinuous which means that the most likely result is that you enter (loading screen) start an encounter automatically, get killed (for the sake of example). Most likely thing to happen then, you re-load to before you went to that area which means that scaling was *not* set.

Modifié par just_frank, 11 novembre 2009 - 03:21 .

[hannahb]

And, to the OP yes I absolutely agree that getting eaten by wolves on the way home from slaying a dragon .. well, it's just weak.

[Dynamomark]

hannahb wrote...

And, to the OP yes I absolutely agree that getting eaten by wolves on the way home from slaying a dragon .. well, it's just weak.

No, it's hillarious :D:D

[just_frank]

Dynamomark wrote...

hannahb wrote...

And, to the OP yes I absolutely agree that getting eaten by wolves on the way home from slaying a dragon .. well, it's just weak.

No, it's hillarious :D:D

Sometimes it is, just as sometimes it's hilarious when your level 20 two handed weapon warror one-hits 2-3 low level thugs who thought they had an easy mark. Except that the latter will never happen with scaling how it's set now.

tl:dr --> The rigidity of creature scaling robs the game of interesting variety in encounters.

Modifié par just_frank, 11 novembre 2009 - 03:46 .

[rezoh]

The game is fun, but scaling just kills that "epic" feeling :-( At first trying to kill a Revenant was like "I ll come here in a few levels and KILL YOU". How wrong I was

[just_frank]

Doing some digging I found

dragonage.gulbsoft.org/doku.php/challenge_scaling

Which is a detailed explanation of how they did the scaling. I appreciate the effort,  but still.

[Haexpane]

Scaling works for SOME encounters, but I agree, the same enemies you face at level 5 are the same you face at level 11, only even more powerful now.. but I have better gear, more spells, higher levels? I guess the enemies went out and did some grinding too?



I think it' needs some balance tweaks and a patch, wolves near a city and street thugs should scale lower, elites etc... are fine it seems.

[FalloutBoy]

I enjoy the challenge of the game. Unlike Oblivion, when I level up, I actually get stronger. However, I agree that it would be nice if they mixed in a few easy fights. It seems like every fight is equally challenging with little variation.

[soteria]

Even without following that link I could have told you the enemies are tougher in Denerim. Those encounters are no joke if you go there right after Ostagar. I guess what we're seeing here is that you went to the area with the highest level cap. And I doubt random encounters have one.

[Wardawg1001]

Scaling is fine. I'm tired of games where you feel like a demi-god half way in and every battle that isn't a "boss" fight is so easy its more of an annoyance than entertainment. Sure dragons are dangerous and hard to kill, but just because you can kill a dragon doesn't mean some street thug can't put an arrow through your eye, nor are you immune to razor sharp claws and teeth of wolves and bears. If the random encounters are that bad, just drop it to easy mode for a few minutes and tear it up.

[Seeking112]

I disagree with the map that was shown on what levels your party can be at when you enter. Some encounters are absolute death if you don't have the right skills/talents/spells no matter what level you are at.

[just_frank]

Those encounters are no joke if you go there right after Ostagar. I guess what we're seeing here is that you went to the area with the highest level cap. And I doubt random encounters have one.

Not quite, for the most part I thought the scaling was very good. I only stated noticing a discrepancy when I reached level 15ish...  After I completed my 3rd-4th major quest line and decided to do the rounds and beat all the bosses (read revenants and dragons). That would be the first time I actually went to Denerim's back alleys and encountered thugs.... so I dont know if it's a matter of where I went and when.

But that's the problem... those encounters should kick your ass when you're level 6, but the ass kicking should go the other way pretty drastically when you're level 16 decked out in juggernaut plate.

I understand that some measure of level scaling is in order but it's completely OK to have "some" encounters become completly one-sided in your favour after you've completed a large chunk of the game.

[just_frank]

Double.

Modifié par just_frank, 11 novembre 2009 - 07:53 .

[just_frank]

Wardawg1001 wrote...

Scaling is fine. I'm tired of games where you feel like a demi-god half way in and every battle that isn't a "boss" fight is so easy its more of an annoyance than entertainment. Sure dragons are dangerous and hard to kill, but just because you can kill a dragon doesn't mean some street thug can't put an arrow through your eye, nor are you immune to razor sharp claws and teeth of wolves and bears. If the random encounters are that bad, just drop it to easy mode for a few minutes and tear it up.

Missing part of the point. Narative justification can always go either way anyhow.

The importrant subtext to the scaling issue is that once you reach a certain point the scaling makes it so that the variability in the difficulty of encounters is rather narrow. The scalling's challeng matching is tight enough that most encounters have the same feel. Granted some encounters are still hard, they forgot that low ended encounters are interesting for variety, and serve the purpose of showing you how far you've come in practical terms.

Easy encounters let you get a real feel for how much stronger you are than what you were and that's somewhat important in an RPG. It's perfectly good to throw in one or two of those once in a while. For taht purpose, plain wolves, city rabble, and hurlock runts would perfectly fit the bill.

The overall difficulty of the game is fine.... it could use some variability.