84 réponses à ce sujet

[Jlcebrian]

I'm also disappointed. The entire game feels completely scaled, just like Oblivion, except with no justification at all since there is barely and freedom of movement or world exploration. I understand the limits they tried to implement, but at least in my playthrough the scaling is massive and completely evident.



This lame design 'feature' kills any sense of advancement, along with the credibility of the game world. Street thugs that are stronger than a dragon? What were they thinking?

[Haexpane]

Wardawg1001 wrote...

Scaling is fine. I'm tired of games where you feel like a demi-god half way in and every battle that isn't a "boss" fight is so easy its more of an annoyance than entertainment. 

And what games are those exactly?  (non JRPGS)

[SheffSteel]

It seems that the scaling algorithm looks like this:

(1) Encounter_level = Party_level
(2) if Encounter_level < Min_level then Encounter_level = Min_Level
(3) if Encounter_level > Max_level then Encounter_level = Max_Level
(4) CreateEncounter at Encounter_level

I really think it ought to look more like this:

(1) Encounter_level = Designed_level + ( Party_level - Designed_Level ) x 0.5
(2) if Encounter_level < Min_level then Encounter_level = Min_Level
(3) if Encounter_level > Max_level then Encounter_level = Max_Level
(4) CreateEncounter at Encounter_level

So if the designer intended a boss to be level 14 and a level 10 party attacks, the boss will be level 12, but if the party was level 20 the boss would be level 17. This allows the player to feel that they're making progress and the rest of the world isn't always keeping up with them, because for every two levels you increase, the bad guys only go up by one. You might not even need to freeze the encounter level with this scheme.

another random thought

As far as ambushes go, it would be much better if those fights were made difficult for tactical / positional reasons than because the total enemy force is one that would present a tough challenge in a fair fight. This is supposed to be an ambush!

[Haexpane]

soteria wrote...

Even without following that link I could have told you the enemies are tougher in Denerim. Those encounters are no joke if you go there right after Ostagar. I guess what we're seeing here is that you went to the area with the highest level cap. And I doubt random encounters have one.

Well I think that's the problem, how would a player know in game that Den  has the highest cap?  Some companions do so to go to other places first, but if you just head do Den for some side questing...

[Dragon Age1103]

just_frank wrote...

Dynamomark wrote...

I don't understand what's the problem of encounters being close to 1:1. Would you rather they be 1 : 0.1? This would put me to sleep. Where's the fun in that? Bioware implemented some scaling mechanics and I like them. Encounters have floors and ceilings in terms of the levels, so earlier or later you do become more powerful than the enemies in those encounters. Also, once you visit an area, monsters there can no longer change their level.

Yes I think some encounters should have much lower ceilings.

I think overall more attention should have been given to what scales and by how much of a +/- factor and where the floors ceilings should be. Just a few tweaks (e.g., thugs and wolves) would make for a much more varied, interesting, and realistic (regarding the narrative) experience.

I completely disagree if you are a warrior, rogue or what ever...every single battle is a fight for your life. My only ocmplaint would be that sometimes the game seems a little too unforgiving in some places but I'm happy with the leveling. i did not like finding out that Flemmeth might not scale with u & u can lv pass her then come back & breeze through it.
  Then again i lack sleep so idk if i even can comprehend what u are saying right now. lol
 I don't think every single fight should have to be set up perfetly to win & its not like that. i'm playing on hard & sometimes i make my party hold while I fight 4-6 or even 7 guys with my warrior alone. I've been doing it since lv13 b/c some fights are jsut that easy.

[Dragon Age1103]

just_frank wrote...

Thoramis wrote...

well oblivions difficulty could be set higher which with my level 22 character was a challenge every now nd again. but i think the difficulty is fine on this game even though there are some instances.

My comments about scaling ahve nothing to do with difficulty. I'm fine with the game that are bloody hard (not that I find DAO that ahrd at all on normal). I enjoy it. My point is about consistency within the narative structure of the world they've created. With scaling as it is now some things just make very little sense.

Also...  I understand that the Devs tried to settle some of that with the idea that level may be set when you enter an area/encounter. This somewhat worked in Fallout because you might enconter some mutants, get your ass kicked and run away to come back later.

The mechanic in this game doesnt work as well because of the way that radom encounters and sidequest areas are designed. They're discontinuous which means that the most likely result is that you enter (loading screen) start an encounter automatically, get killed (for the sake of example). Most likely thing to happen then, you re-load to before you went to that area which means that scaling was *not* set.

I just can't seee the big deal, what fun is a game if you win every single time. Sometimes u find a new enemy layout & the fact of the matter is, not everyone is equal. Some ppl will be better than you a lot better some a lot worse. I've ran into both plenty of times. I mean in the Deep Roads I completely screwed up my party configuration & died so many times for the first time it took me more than 4 times to win a fight after 67 hours of play but i overcame it. Random travels I have battles that kill my enire team b/c I wasn't ready for it reload & learn from the xp use a new tactic & win. Some traveling, side quest or back alley battle are so easy i don't even have to cast a healing spell or use a potion. So if you're saying its too hard or too easy or not enough of either i have to completely disagree. How long have u been playing?

[SilentOne83]

In my experience no game should have scaling, as almost every game I play now is too predictable and easy.

[allothernamesweretaken]

Where was this outrage over scaling with every other Bioware game?

[just_frank]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

I just can't seee the big deal, what fun is a game if you win every single time. Sometimes u find a new enemy layout & the fact of the matter is, not everyone is equal. Some ppl will be better than you a lot better some a lot worse. I've ran into both plenty of times. I mean in the Deep Roads I completely screwed up my party configuration & died so many times for the first time it took me more than 4 times to win a fight after 67 hours of play but i overcame it. Random travels I have battles that kill my enire team b/c I wasn't ready for it reload & learn from the xp use a new tactic & win. Some traveling, side quest or back alley battle are so easy i don't even have to cast a healing spell or use a potion. So if you're saying its too hard or too easy or not enough of either i have to completely disagree. How long have u been playing?

Keep reading my posts. I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying.
I've said nothing about the game being too hard overall. Again, I'm perfectly fine with the game's level of difficulty. I *do* think that some encounters are scaling so high that they stop making sense within the narrative (wolves and thugs). I *do* think that easy battles inserted once in a while would serve a helpful purpose in making the player feel like their characters actually grew. I *do* think that wolves and city rabble should serve that purpose.

allothernamesweretaken wrote...

Where was this outrage over scaling with every other Bioware game?

What does that have to do with anything?

[allothernamesweretaken]

just_frank wrote...

allothernamesweretaken wrote...

Where was this outrage over scaling with every other Bioware game?

What does that have to do with anything?

Every other Bioware game, except maybe Baldur's Game, has used a scaling system not unlike this.

There was no complaint threads about it then, so why is it all the sudden an issue that you can't plow your way through stuff without a second thought?

[Haexpane]

allothernamesweretaken wrote...

just_frank wrote...

allothernamesweretaken wrote...

Where was this outrage over scaling with every other Bioware game?

What does that have to do with anything?

Every other Bioware game, except maybe Baldur's Game, has used a scaling system not unlike this.

There was no complaint threads about it then, so why is it all the sudden an issue that you can't plow your way through stuff without a second thought?

Wow, time to tone down your flaming guy.

Scaling in RPGs is a very controversial topic, people in this thread have been nice enough to offer detailed analysis and suggestions for how it could be tweaked.

Stuff like "stop complaining" is tired, old and pointless... Baldurs Gate 2 is godly, and the standard bearer.   there is no "except BG"

[pscantland]

SheffSteel wrote...

It seems that the scaling algorithm looks like this:

(1) Encounter_level = Party_level
(2) if Encounter_level < Min_level then Encounter_level = Min_Level
(3) if Encounter_level > Max_level then Encounter_level = Max_Level
(4) CreateEncounter at Encounter_level

I really think it ought to look more like this:

(1) Encounter_level = Designed_level + ( Party_level - Designed_Level ) x 0.5
(2) if Encounter_level < Min_level then Encounter_level = Min_Level
(3) if Encounter_level > Max_level then Encounter_level = Max_Level
(4) CreateEncounter at Encounter_level

So if the designer intended a boss to be level 14 and a level 10 party attacks, the boss will be level 12, but if the party was level 20 the boss would be level 17. This allows the player to feel that they're making progress and the rest of the world isn't always keeping up with them, because for every two levels you increase, the bad guys only go up by one. You might not even need to freeze the encounter level with this scheme.

And that would have been a VERY good system !

Hope somebody at Bioware is reading this...

[allothernamesweretaken]

Haexpane wrote...

allothernamesweretaken wrote...

just_frank wrote...

allothernamesweretaken wrote...

Where was this outrage over scaling with every other Bioware game?

What does that have to do with anything?

Every other Bioware game, except maybe Baldur's Game, has used a scaling system not unlike this.

There was no complaint threads about it then, so why is it all the sudden an issue that you can't plow your way through stuff without a second thought?

Wow, time to tone down your flaming guy.

Scaling in RPGs is a very controversial topic, people in this thread have been nice enough to offer detailed analysis and suggestions for how it could be tweaked.

Stuff like "stop complaining" is tired, old and pointless... Baldurs Gate 2 is godly, and the standard bearer.   there is no "except BG"

1)What flaming?

2)When did I to say stop complaining?

3)Yes, BG2 is a classic. I merely can't remember whether or not it used a level scaling system.

This allows the player to feel that they're making progress and the
rest of the world isn't always keeping up with them, because for every
two levels you increase, the bad guys only go up by one. You might not
even need to freeze the encounter level with this scheme.

...And the game would gradually get easier, rather than harder

Modifié par allothernamesweretaken, 11 novembre 2009 - 11:40 .

[Ascorius]

I dont like scaling. Its nice with a good challenge overall. But if I finish the game on lvl 17 and rushed through I should have had a harder time then if I finished it on 24 (because I took alot of sidequests). I dont mind some areas being extremely hard if you go to them right away, and others being easier later on because you took a high level route from the start, thats the players choice. Some scaling on important bosses is not that bad, but they should have a pretty strict floor and ceiling.



And like just_frank says, they should have at least implemented some mobs were you could power through. Its nice feeling powerful sometimes. That you truly have become a hero of the realms.

[Seeking112]

I agree with a lot of people that the scaling would have been ok except for-



Being able to kill a Dragon and then getting your *ss handed to you by a group of city thugs. That just seems.........unlikely....

[TheRealIncarnal]

You do have a great point about the thugs, I was wondering why they were so much powerful than anyone I've yet to run into in the army. You would have hoped that the elite in the army would be more powerful than a simple average street thug. I also have the same feeling regarding the Darkspawn, although I've reached a point where the average Oger I face gives me less trouble than a few Hurlocks.



Still, it's not where near as bad as it was in Oblivion, that was terrible, but there's not quite as much feeling of progress as I wish there was.

[Fishy]

The game's non linear.Unlike game like diablo 2 where you can go back to act 1 and wipe everything with whirlwing.

But it,s still funny that a bunch of thug still give me trouble  .. while wearing my big hammer of apocalypse and my dragon armor of doom while directly coming from the depth of Orzammar with the blood of hundred of ogre and much more i decapited .

While most of them would probably die in fear with only the stare of a revenant.

I still love the game .. and simply try to think otherwise.
But has you get more powerful in the game.the reaction of ppl change in your regard.

Modifié par Suprez30, 12 novembre 2009 - 01:04 .

[Fishy]

Anyway...

if you want to feel like a god .. use a GOD MODE hack
ROFL.

[just_frank]

allothernamesweretaken wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

This allows the player to feel that they're making progress and the
rest of the world isn't always keeping up with them, because for every
two levels you increase, the bad guys only go up by one. You might not
even need to freeze the encounter level with this scheme.

...And the game would gradually get easier, rather than harder

Agreed... and making the game easier isnt what I'm after.

Modifié par just_frank, 12 novembre 2009 - 01:44 .

[Dynamomark]

just_frank wrote...

Agreed... and making the game easier isnt what I'm after.

However, you put it, you are still "after" making certain encounters easier. That will in fact make the game easier, although it won't be as obvious. Making particular encounters easier, will make players less wary of them and more complacent. On the flip side, if you keep scaling as it is, people will be more afraid of such encounters and will be forced to think to make better characters and develop their skills as players. They will be forced to think more about what they are doing and invest more into such skills as survival or coercion, skills which could help them avoid such encounters.

I think currently it is a good scaling system because it compromises between an outright scaling of monsters' level to yours and non-scaling (i.e. scaling floors and ceiling, freezing monsters' levels once you visited their area). This system forces you not just focus on developing your character build, but also on developing your skill and intelligence as a player. I don't think that robs you of the sense of achievement in any way. To the contrary, defeating more challenging encounters embraces your feeling of achievement.

[Eidolonn]

I think the only creatures that should be scaled are dragons, lizardmen, and other reptiles.  Oh, and fish.

Modifié par Eidolonn, 12 novembre 2009 - 02:39 .

[SheffSteel]

Assuming that encounters are designed by someone who understands the levelling algorithm, that scheme doesn't necessarily make the game any easier. It just means that any given encounter is easier for higher level characters than for lower level characters, which sounds like a good idea to me - certainly better than having to poke your head round the door, wave at the nice monster, run away, and come back a couple of levels later, which is at best rather artificial.

[Aidunno]

This is what I have read from the "missing manual" webpage (not complete).

In Dragon Age: Origins, every area has a minimum and maximum level. If the player enters the area, the party's level is taken and compared to the area limits. If it is between the limits, the creatures in the areas scale to the party's level. If the party level is outside the limit, the creatures scale to the upper or lower bounds of the area limit, whatever appropriate.

Once this has happened, the game stores these values and they are never changed. Creatures in Dragon Age: Origins, once encountered, will never change their existing level, to allow the player to come back to an area later and overcome previously impossible challenges, therefore having getting sense of accomplishment.

In simple terms, there are three types of areas.

    * Areas that are really easy (such as maybe a cave filled with rats).
    * Areas that feel 'just right'.
    * Areas that feel very dangerous'

Gating Encounters

In many places there are 'gating encounters' at the start of many areas to allow the player to get a sense of how dangerous the area is. In theory, a player having trouble or being defeated a number of times in an areas should trigger a 'maybe I should come back later' reaction from them (it does in MMOs, doesn't it?), in practice, well, there are too few games to that give you the freedom of doing this, so many non veteran RPG players are not trained for this mechanic.

The High Dragon is a great example for that. Nobody needs to fight him right there, yet there are dozens of posts on the forums of people that think they are stuck because there is a dragon sleeping nearby on the rock…


Creature Type Limits

Nothing is more damaging to players experience that noticing that the same rats he fought at level 1 have magically grown alongside him.

Dragon Age uses 'creature type limits' to prevent creatures from behaving that way. Like area scaling, creature type scaling has limits up and down.

    *  A normal Rat will always be a rat and never exceed level 1 or 2, even if the player is level 20.
    *  A Revenant will never be a weak pushover if encountered early in the game.

[MarshalVaako]

How does scaling affecti the game difficulty? If your playing on nightmare does it still use the same scaling mechanics?

[Delcar]

Eidolonn wrote...

I think the only creatures that should be scaled are dragons, lizardmen, and other reptiles.  Oh, and fish.

lol