84 réponses à ce sujet

[just_frank]

Dynamomark wrote...

just_frank wrote...

Agreed... and making the game easier isnt what I'm after.

However, you put it, you are still "after" making certain encounters easier. That will in fact make the game easier, although it won't be as obvious. Making particular encounters easier, will make players less wary of them and more complacent. On the flip side, if you keep scaling as it is, people will be more afraid of such encounters and will be forced to think to make better characters and develop their skills as players. They will be forced to think more about what they are doing and invest more into such skills as survival or coercion, skills which could help them avoid such encounters.

I think currently it is a good scaling system because it compromises between an outright scaling of monsters' level to yours and non-scaling (i.e. scaling floors and ceiling, freezing monsters' levels once you visited their area). This system forces you not just focus on developing your character build, but also on developing your skill and intelligence as a player. I don't think that robs you of the sense of achievement in any way. To the contrary, defeating more challenging encounters embraces your feeling of achievement.

Although technically I must concede that you're correct. I really dont believe that the effect would make the game significantly easier. In fact, I could argue that since easier encounters give less XP and arguably worse random loot It made the game harder from a progression perspective.

Would it be better in your mind if a few (just a few) pretty easy encounters were added rather than the current encounters modified?

Modifié par just_frank, 12 novembre 2009 - 03:05 .

[Dynamomark]

MarshalVaako wrote...

How does scaling affecti the game difficulty? If your playing on nightmare does it still use the same scaling mechanics?

Scaling remains the same. They change other things for difficulty levels.

[Dynamomark]

just_frank wrote...

Would it be better in your mind if a few (just a few) pretty easy encounters were added rather than the current encounters modified?

I suppose beating on weak fools for fun couldn't hurt

[thekrog]

I think without scaling, the game would quickly become boring and much less challenging. I also don't believe it is a 1:1 ratio. Bandits (encounters in general) are probably 1:.8 while bosses are 1:2. Some of the bosses are much more difficult than a whole screen full of Bandits/Darkspawn/ect. If you want to beat up on weak mobs, change to easy mod, but it will take most of the challenge away.

[Ascorius]

I actually think that scaling has a reverse effect in many cases, players will never really be afraid of an encounter, since they will be scaled to their level. I think some encounters like high dragon etc, should be near impossible on lower levels. Not having scaling doesnt really make the game easier. Lets say that brecil forest was set to lvl 12-13. But that you went straight there after lotheren and managed to beat it anyways, the rest of the encounters would be a bit easier since you would prolly would have gotten alot of xp from brecil, but it wouldnt actually have been a cakewalk (a player would have understood that he went to a high level area by fighting the mobs). Its better to give the player a choice to follow normal progression or fight the hard fights at the start. Sidequests and such are meant to make things easier because of extra xp. Personally scaling ruins alot of the immersion for me. Im not arguing that things are too hard the way they are, neither am I arguing that its not interesting with challenging fights. I just think that some fights should be impossible and some should be a cakewalk, thats more realisitic/normal right? The way it is now a dragon is easier than a pack of whatevers, because the dragon just takes time, but doesnt require much tactics.

Dont you guys remember bg1/2, wasnt that alot better?. And dont say that its more linear, because bg2 wasnt. You had several long dungeoncrawls from the start and you could choose between them.

And by the way, I hate the "if you want to beat up easy mobs turn it on easy" argument. Maybe I rather want to fight some monsters that are nearly impossible for my current level, some that are meant for eight levels higher. Arguments like that makes me think that you arent reading the arguments against scaling in this thread.

Modifié par Ascorius, 12 novembre 2009 - 04:07 .

[Dynamomark]

Ascorius wrote...

I actually think that scaling has a reverse effect in many cases, players will never really be afraid of an encounter, since they will be scaled to their level. I think some encounters like high dragon etc, should be near impossible on lower levels. Not having scaling doesnt really make the game easier. Lets say that brecil forest was set to lvl 12-13. But that you went straight there after lotheren and managed to beat it anyways, the rest of the encounters would be a bit easier since you would prolly would have gotten alot of xp from brecil, but it wouldnt actually have been a cakewalk (a player would have understood that he went to a high level area by fighting the mobs). Its better to give the player a choice to follow normal progression or fight the hard fights at the start. Sidequests and such are meant to make things easier because of extra xp. Personally scaling ruins alot of the immersion for me. Im not arguing that things are too hard the way they are, neither am I arguing that its not interesting with challenging fights. I just think that some fights should be impossible and some should be a cakewalk, thats more realisitic/normal right? The way it is now a dragon is easier than a pack of whatevers, because the dragon just takes time, but doesnt require much tactics.

Dont you guys remember bg1/2, wasnt that alot better?. And dont say that its more linear, because bg2 wasnt. You had several long dungeoncrawls from the start and you could choose between them.

And by the way, I hate the "if you want to beat up easy mobs turn it on easy" argument. Maybe I rather want to fight some monsters that are nearly impossible for my current level, some that are meant for eight levels higher. Arguments like that makes me think that you arent reading the arguments against scaling in this thread.

I can see the merit in your argument. However, I think it's a good thing that each area is bound to a range of levels rather than to one specific level. If you come to an area that scales itself between levels 10 and 12, that area could still be impossible for you if you are level 3. By the way, Baldur's gate 2 did have some scaling, as in the watcher's tower where you would get different monsters depending on your level.

Also, not everything is scaled. As Georg Zoeller has mentioned: "Encounters that include bosses and lieutenants are always hand designed." So the game is not scaled to that extent. I don't think I would've liked it myself if bosses were scaled to my level.

And the fact that you could get wiped by a pack of wolves on the way home from killing the dragon (I am still laughing at some of the earlier posts in this thread) just points out how unpredictable this game could be, and I think it's a good thing.

[just_frank]

Dynamomark wrote...

Also, not everything is scaled. As Georg Zoeller has mentioned: "Encounters that include bosses and lieutenants are always hand designed." So the game is not scaled to that extent. I don't think I would've liked it myself if bosses were scaled to my level.

And the fact that you could get wiped by a pack of wolves on the way home from killing the dragon (I am still laughing at some of the earlier posts in this thread) just points out how unpredictable this game could be, and I think it's a good thing.

First... as I understood it without looking at the encounter designs in the toolset (not yert installed) this means that they set the chalenge level and encouter sizes manually, but some form of scaling is still present.

Second, I still think the issue with the wolves is valid. I'd give the issue a rest if it was rabid blightwolves like those that a master ranger can summon. I still argue that the scaling could use more variability, and that this variability is conspicuously missing at the low end. Either way, you find it funny, I find it wonky.

I've spent some time at higher levels (18ish right now) and I've begun to exceed the ceiling of the level cap in some of the main quest encounters. The effect is that the quantity of creatured is increased to compensate which is fine. At this point I expect the fully scaling random encounters will be really tough which is fine.

I think what I've begun to understand is that there's a huge chunk of the game (I'll ballpark it at 75%) where your characters are fully entrenched between the floor and celing of most of the encounters' challenge level, and I'm pretty sure that's where most of the issue lies. For that part of the game the variability of what you encounter is pretty low, almost to the point where the challenge level is so consistent that it's almost monotonous. That there's a problem.

[rilzic]

just_frank wrote...

First I should start by saying that I'm not a fan of creature scaling. It ruined oblivion for me (along with random loot), though they made it somewhat well enough in fallout.

The point is this.

There are some parts of the game, such as side quests and random encounters, where the scaling ceilings should be set more aggressively low. Otherwise, you end up breaking the sense of "getting stronger" that an RPG of this scope should provide.

Questions...
How can/should this be fixed?
Should it be modded or officiallyt patched?

Blah...  Still loving the game otherwise, just feel like I could be loving it more.

BTW I think they got the random loot tables and special loot placement just about right.

I disagree.

It sucked in oblivion because morrowind and the other TES games had already defined those games, whereas a BG spiritual successor, they have always had scaling.  I admit it could use a little more variation, I do have a sense of getting stronger though. For one i can kill dragons now, two the normal thugs and darkspwn are easy to kill now while they weren't  when i was under level 10. For example i don't have to pull one or two from a room so i don't get wiped anymore i can generally charge in am kill everything. It's just my opinion but i see TES as a bit more exploration and BG/DA as more RPG although both have strong aspects of exploration and RPG.

I just don't think you can make as strong a arguement about level scaling in this game as we did in TES4, I mean none or little level scaling was a huge part or marrowind, you just can't say the same for BG/DA.

The way in which they group the open world aspect of bioware games makes level scaling a bit more important then the more open world of obilvion. What i mean is that in oblivion the quests where all orver the place and frequently took you to other cities or the middile of nowhere. DA and bioware games are much more compartmentalized, where it makes much more sense to make sure that in a specific compartment all the content is on the same level or in a choose your own path type game scaled to or near to your level. 

[Kolaris8472]

Completely agree with the original point. Did the Sacred Ashes quest early on, saw the Dragon, decided to test out the enemy scaling by fighting it anyway (was only level ~11), was a close fight but it should not have been winnable at that stage.



Then later I'm getting slaughtered by back-alley bandits in Denerim. Level scaling is, in all forms, a terrible mistake.

[Haexpane]

Yes, monotonous is the answer. Even basic thugs are just as tough as big demons, it's silly and annoying. Many thugs actually have more HPs or better armor and take longer to kill.



Basic RPG tropes tell us



Rats outside the city = n00b fodder

Undead yard trash outside a castle/dungeon = tougher than rats, but only a tease as to what is to come

The deeper you go, the tougher mobs should get inside a dungeon, fortress etc... this is not the case.



The first blood mage you meet is as powerful as the last inside a fort/hideout except for the 1 named or elite. That's not how it should be.



The whole fun of dungeon diving is getting warmed up, then hitting the hard parts. Especially with RTWP you get a flow going and things build, more and more frantic/hard.



DAO sadly is missing this. There is no build up, every encounter is exactly the same in terms of challenge.



At least for me so far (at the Urn part of the main quest) level 12

[SheffSteel]

I agree that unpredictability is good (and that ambushes should be hard!)

I worry that uniform scaling reduces unpredictability.

[EmperorGruumm]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but I think the game doesn't even scale that much- I think the main problem people have is with leveling up. It's not a traditional RPG where in ten levels you are 10x stronger. One level nets you small bonuses and it will take ten levels or so before you are that much better.



The game is grittier than most games, just because you killed a dragon doesn't mean that a wolf can't kill you. Defeating a dragon is a marvel of skill, but it doesn't mean your character is ripping lamp-posts in half or can take a sword slash to the neck. No matter your level you are still mortal- no character because invincible in the game- it isn't Dragon Ball Z and it's not Dungeons and Dragons.

[Seeking112]

"And the fact that you could get wiped by a pack of wolves on the way home from killing the dragon (I am still laughing at some of the earlier posts in this thread) just points out how unpredictable this game could be, and I think it's a good thing."



I disagree on this point. I could understand coming home after a tough dragon fight and getting ambushed and crushed by werwolves/direwolves/demon wolves,etc; That have been laying in wait for a party to destroy.



But we are talking about normal wolves that should not have 500 hp each because you happen to be level 12. If your going to scale, that's fine, but make the enemies make sense. If you were lower levels, wolves are fine. Maybe mid levels, a party of bandits, higher levels minor wyrms,whatever.



But walking in a dark alley of a city and having thugs wipe out a party. C'mon, if they are that powerful they could take over the whole city. They hide from level 3 city guards but can hand your a** to you when your characters are level 13? Those thugs better be led by a high lich, or demonic lord but no, their the same thugs you would meet at level 3 that have scaled with/past you.



I think I am more upset that they scaled creatures that just wouldn't be that powerful than the actual scaling itself.

[Seeking112]

"And the fact that you could get wiped by a pack of wolves on the way home from killing the dragon (I am still laughing at some of the earlier posts in this thread) just points out how unpredictable this game could be, and I think it's a good thing."



I disagree on this point. I could understand coming home after a tough dragon fight and getting ambushed and crushed by werwolves/direwolves/demon wolves,etc; That have been laying in wait for a party to destroy.



But we are talking about normal wolves that should not have 500 hp each because you happen to be level 12. If your going to scale, that's fine, but make the enemies make sense. If you were lower levels, wolves are fine. Maybe mid levels, a party of bandits, higher levels minor wyrms,whatever.



But walking in a dark alley of a city and having thugs wipe out a party. C'mon, if they are that powerful they could take over the whole city. They hide from level 3 city guards but can hand your a** to you when your characters are level 13? Those thugs better be led by a high lich, or demonic lord but no, their the same thugs you would meet at level 3 that have scaled with/past you.



I think I am more upset that they scaled creatures that just wouldn't be that powerful than the actual scaling itself.

[Seeking112]

"And the fact that you could get wiped by a pack of wolves on the way home from killing the dragon (I am still laughing at some of the earlier posts in this thread) just points out how unpredictable this game could be, and I think it's a good thing."



I disagree on this point. I could understand coming home after a tough dragon fight and getting ambushed and crushed by werwolves/direwolves/demon wolves,etc; That have been laying in wait for a party to destroy.



But we are talking about normal wolves that should not have 500 hp each because you happen to be level 12. If your going to scale, that's fine, but make the enemies make sense. If you were lower levels, wolves are fine. Maybe mid levels, a party of bandits, higher levels minor wyrms,whatever.



But walking in a dark alley of a city and having thugs wipe out a party. C'mon, if they are that powerful they could take over the whole city. They hide from level 3 city guards but can hand your a** to you when your characters are level 13? Those thugs better be led by a high lich, or demonic lord but no, their the same thugs you would meet at level 3 that have scaled with/past you.



I think I am more upset that they scaled creatures that just wouldn't be that powerful than the actual scaling itself.

[Seeking112]

I hate this computer, sorry about the triple post.

[rebump]

Didn't read the entire thread but I also find issue with scaling MOBs. I don't think leaving everything at set levels is the answer either as that could get boring.

I think it would be great if given areas were tied to a set of MOB levels but the twist would be a random roll where a small percentage would result in an equal encounter (i.e. 1:1) and an even smaller percentage in a harder encounter.

Say a 2d10 (aka 1d100) roll before each encounter in an area:
- 1 to 80 -> the original MOB(s) level range for the area
- 81 to 95 -> a equal MOB(s) encounter
- 95 to 99 -> a harder than expected MOB(s) encounter
- 100 -> elite/name MOB encounter (although "named" would likely be more rare...maybe 1d200 roll...heh heh...200 sided die...would like to see that thing roll...literally)

With that scenario, you could use the area to level appropriately but then breeze through it after you advanced past it yet still be surprised once in a while.

They could do the same with loot or base the loot off the MOB(s) encountered.

I just don't like the monotony of fixed level encounters in an area. Everquest II did things pretty well but not exactly like I suggest above.

Modifié par rebump, 12 novembre 2009 - 09:12 .

[Uriah Jeep]

Yes, this game would be much more interesting and compelling if i could walk all over the opponents...?

[just_frank]

Uriah Jeep wrote...

Yes, this game would be much more interesting and compelling if i could walk all over the opponents...?

Way to flamboyantly miss the point champ!
No one here is arguing that they want that.

Modifié par just_frank, 12 novembre 2009 - 09:29 .

[Dynamomark]

SheffSteel and EmperorGrumm, I agree 100 percent.

Seeking112, I have no problem with wolves having 500 HP. If I and the wolves were both 4 levels lower, they would've had 450 HP, that wouldn't have made much difference. Not in this game. Those who are annoyed by wolves, should simply learn to avoid them.

I do not see anything wrong with thugs being afraid of city guards. If you compare to real life, there are plenty of gangs which have the resources to take over a town. Yet they are not doing that, at least not overtly. Have you ever wondered why?

Rebump, I do like your idea about random level rolls very much. Bioware should think about it.

Just_frank, could rebump's idea be what you were looking for when you said "scaling could use more variability"?

Modifié par Dynamomark, 12 novembre 2009 - 11:35 .

[Obode]

I somewhat agree that creature scaling can be a problem, atleast if theres not enough big bosses that give you a challenge.. It would be great if they had a few areas which were not affected by scaling.

[Dam Wookie]

How about having the first wood, mine, town area as low level. The following deeper area is low-mid. and-so-on and-so-on



This way you likely choose to experience each area nearer the start of the game to play well balanced fights. However you could also have the choice of pushing on and risk getting wiped out for greater rewards. If you did you would also likely end up going to one of the other areas at higher level and having a little bit of fodder to make you feel powerful.



I would like to see a bit of statistics in random encounters. Say if you were low level. Each mob had an appearance probability of 25% very low level, 40% low, 25% mid, 7% high, 3% very high level. Then as you levelled up the probabities shifted upwards to become the reverse when you reached high level. At low levels you always had a small risk of being wiped out (or needing to run?? you low level woosies) and high levels you always had a small chance of completely owning the mobs (you bad as$ mofo). Yet at the same time you always had a largely scaled difficulty to your level.



You could even introduce this in a restricted way into the main areas. So if you entered say woods area 1 first the enemies were likely 1 level lower than the intended and if you entered mines area 1 last the enemies were likely 1 level higher than the intended.



Not scaling the enemies completely but scaling the probabilty of their appearance. It introduces a bit of danger, a greater sense of advancement and yet at the same time reduces the likelyhood of playing a demon slaying but puppy whipped grey warden.



I also always liked the idea of the best loot being in the deeper areas and the closer areas pilfered of items of value rather than the world revolving around you (I got a great sword coz I went their at high level).



I don't understand why the implementation of restricted intelligent scaling is such a difficulty for game developers.

[Ryndelas]

I'm going to bandwagon with those who dislike Denerim's bandits. Tough dungeon crawls are a great thing, especially when you can finally defeat a boss and get some sweet loot. I played Gothic a few years ago, and I liked the feeling of character progression: you start out as a scrawny little errand boy who gets his bum handed to him by all manner of forest wildlife, but gradually you get tougher, better with a blade, etc. You're not a demi-god by any means, and the game keeps challenging you, but you've learned a lot and are able to apply it. That sense of accomplishment is great, and keeps me playing as much as story progression. I get that feeling from DA, too, except for those bandits



I hit Denerim late on and yeah, thought it silly how the back alley bandits were my toughest fights yet. If they were a tried and true merc company, then I'd be more understanding and expect it to be quite tough, but some riffraff shouldn't be able to compare to large groups of possessed templars or a giant Uldred abomination and his underlings. Tough by the fact that it is an ambush and there are lots of them, yes, but not because each of them has higher attributes than an ogre and all their weapons are made of dragonbone. Only situation I really disliked the scaling, to be honest. Certainly doable, but in terms of story/character progression they seem out of place.



Didn't have problems with wolves, though. I kind of attributed their level scaling to them eating some blighted bunnies or something

[Sylvius the Mad]

I understand the point of scaling, but rather than scale based on what level the party (or PC) is, I'd suggest that narrative cohesion could be maintained better by scaling based on the status of the main plot.

So, if you've finished 8 central plot areas, you'll face tougher monsters than if you've only finished 4. However, those monsters should not get stronger just because you've done some non-plot sidequests; that seems like punishment. If I do sidequests and grow stronger, then my character should be more powerful relative to his opponents. Otherwise, what's the point of doing the sidequests? If they don't benefit my character in any way, he can't reasonably choose to do them.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 13 novembre 2009 - 01:08 .

[hannahb]

Dynamomark wrote...


Seeking112, I have no problem with wolves having 500 HP. If I and the wolves were both 4 levels lower, they would've had 450 HP, that wouldn't have made much difference. Not in this game. Those who are annoyed by wolves, should simply learn to avoid them.

ummmm ... you cant transition while in combat .. so you are suggestion we kite the wolves around inside the combat instance until when?  We fall over from boredom or fatigue?

You can't avoid random encounters on the world map. Unless, maybe you get lucky and the wolves dont agro to you as soon as zone loads then you could step back out maybe.

TBPH, The real problem is the Level Based System itself.  It is obviously fundamentally flawed and thus the invention of Level Scaling is required to prop it up.  Level scaling is a mere patch-job workaround for a system that really doesn't work.  An attributes based skill system is probably a better alternative but we are so very addicted to that *ding* thing which comes with a level based system that we'll never accept a attributes/skill based system. 

I have to admit, I really like it when I hit that next level.  More health, skill points to spend, special abilities to acquire... all very good motivators to keep playing.