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[sinosleep]

Generally I like inferno ammo for the area effect aspect of it (panicking bystanders) instead of one to one freezing but I'll do the same run I did for the rambo vid with cryo and see what's what.

[Simbacca]

sinosleep wrote...

Generally I like inferno ammo for the area effect aspect of it (panicking bystanders) instead of one to one freezing but I'll do the same run I did for the rambo vid with cryo and see what's what.

It should work even better in your run since you were facing shielded and barriered organics while I was facing armored organics.  I mean really, as much as I tried to stack the odds in Inferno's favor with my enemy selections in that experiment, I was shocked to see I was clearly things just as fast.  Then again it makes sense stats wise.  Rev has x1.4 armor and 1.0x health.  Inferno attempts to shore up what it is already good at, Cryo speeds up what it's slowest at.

Modifié par Simbacca, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:38 .

[Kronner]

Simbacca wrote...

Glad to see my prodding work; surprised how quickly too!

Great videos guys, however I have a bit of a theory of how that could have been even more efficient.

Yesterday was my second time getting a chance to pay around with the Revenant so I ran a little experiment.  First I'll say my Soldier had Hardened AR, Inferno Ammo, Squad Cryo Ammo, Commando, and 1pt Slam.  The two missions for this experiment so far were Jack's loyalty and Grunt's loyalty, and it goes without saying this was on insanity. 

Some background first; the other day I noticed Inferno Ammo not really panicking enemies all that long.  I also noticed with the Rev's high RoF, once the targets got down to health the Inferno DoT never really gets a chance to tick.  I mean really, with a machine gun like the Rev, the targets always die before you would stop firing, but if you stop firing too soon, they won't stay panicked for more than a second before shooting at you again.  My hypothesis was that unless shooting at very highly armored targets (bosses, Scions, Harby, Gunships), it may be more efficient to use Cryo Ammo on the Rev!

To test, I set out to do both the above mentioned loyalty missions twice; once with Inferno on both the Rev and the Viper, the other with Squad Cryo on the Rev and Inferno on the Viper.  Intentionally I thought I had stacked this experiment in Inferno Ammo's favor, since both missions featured armored organic enemies (Varren, Klixen, Vorcha, Krogan).  Surprisingly what I discovered is that for both missions, I cleared the areas in about the same amount of time, if not a little faster(!), with Cryo Ammo on the Rev rather than Inferno!  In addition to similar run times, it is a fact that I spent far less time with my screen pulsating red during the Cryo runs than the Inferno runs! 

What ended up happening is this:  with Inferno ammo on the Rev, all four of those enemy types had their armor stripped off a little faster, however it took longer to get through their health (due to Inferno damage changing to DoT once hitting health instead of armor).  The DoT of Inferno never gets utilized to full effect anyway; when using the Rev one never stops shooting the meat grinder till nothing but shredder jiblets remain.  With Squad Cryo Ammo on the Rev, all four of those enemy types still had their armor stripped quickly (after all, the Rev does have x1.4 armor, x1.2 shields, x1.2 barriers, x1.0 health) but a hair slower in comparison nonetheless.  However, enemies died faster once they got to health, usually shattering once their health bar dropped only half way.  In addition to dying much faster, enemies stay frozen longer than they do panicking from fire, making it easier to switch targets when fighting multiple enemies once you see the first start to freeze. 

If only I was playing on the PC instead of the 360.  I could of made a video showcasing my findings much clearer and much easier than this mass of text... @sinosleep and kronner; I encourage both you to try the same runs again but with Cryo Ammo on the Rev to see if we can duplicate/verify my results.

Interesting
I used Inferno because I wanted to kill the Scions asap. Cryo would be much better against husks, that's for sure. I am gonna do two solo runs of the exterior part of Mordin's LM and see what is the difference.

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...

I've been inspired.

Badass.

[Simbacca]

Kronner wrote...
Interesting
I used Inferno because I wanted to kill the Scions asap. Cryo would be much better against husks, that's for sure. I am gonna do two solo runs of the exterior part of Mordin's LM and see what is the difference.

That's what I figured, as I said Inferno is still need for very heavily armored foes, luckily ammo powers have a 1.5 second cooldown so it's easy to switch.  Great to hear you'll try it; I look forward to hearing both of your experiences.

One other cool benefit:  a Shatter Rev Soldier is badass.  Since my Soldier looks like the Terminator (Arnold's face plus Renegade scars), the icy way to kill matches this cold-blooded machine

Modifié par Simbacca, 15 septembre 2010 - 05:09 .

[Kronner]

Simbacca wrote...

That's what I figured, as I said Inferno is still need for very heavily armored foes, luckily ammo powers have a 1.5 second cooldown so it's easy to switch.  Great to hear you'll try it; I look forward to hearing both of your experiences.

One other cool benefit:  a Shatter Rev Soldier is badass.  Since my Soldier looks like the Terminator (Arnold's face plus Renegade scars), the icy way to kill matches this cold-blooded machine

Uploaded 2 quick ones - Inferno and Cryo version. Not much of a difference, maybe it needed a different level. Rev has enough stopping power to kill a krogan no matter what ammo you have.

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

Simbacca wrote...

That's what I figured, as I said Inferno is still need for very heavily armored foes, luckily ammo powers have a 1.5 second cooldown so it's easy to switch.  Great to hear you'll try it; I look forward to hearing both of your experiences.

One other cool benefit:  a Shatter Rev Soldier is badass.  Since my Soldier looks like the Terminator (Arnold's face plus Renegade scars), the icy way to kill matches this cold-blooded machine

Uploaded 2 quick ones - Inferno and Cryo version. Not much of a difference, maybe it needed a different level. Rev has enough stopping power to kill a krogan no matter what ammo you have.

LOL @ the krogan at 1:34. He seemed to dive onto the floor and smash into bits

[OniGanon]

Tuchanka is full of enemies with low defense, high health and immunity to panic effects. Cryo working well in those conditions should be expected, especially when using rapid fire weaponry.

Modifié par OniGanon, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:31 .

[Simbacca]

Kronner wrote...

Uploaded 2 quick ones - Inferno and Cryo version. Not much of a difference, maybe it needed a different level. Rev has enough stopping power to kill a krogan no matter what ammo you have.

That's just it, they perform about the same, yet you took less damage while using Cryo.  That was exactly my experience as well.  What surprised me is that Inferno isn't much faster though one would have originally thought it would be clearly quicker being the enemies on my missions, and yours, were all armored organics.  Then if you take into account the fact that rank 1 Cryo Ammo would work on Rev Shep pretty much just as effectively as rank 4 Squad Cryo is... which is already comparable to rank 4 Inferno (so would certainly beat lower ranks of Incendiary)...

Now I just look forward to testing it out against a combination of shielded and barriered organics.  If any rank Cryo is comparable in kill speed to rank 4 Inferno against armored organics, then it must be faster against shielded / barriered organics.

...And this is all without testing the never used Improved Cryo Ammo.  If it's description holds true in that "...this ammunition freezes targets more frequently..." then it would be clearly faster as it would freeze and shatter enemies earlier in the bullet-storm!

Modifié par Simbacca, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:46 .

[ezrafetch]

Simbacca wrote...

That's just it, they perform about the same, yet you took less damage while using Cryo.

As OniGanon said, Tuchanka dudes don't panic from Inferno, so Kronner's tests, while still informative, carry a lot less power when you try to apply them to non-BP missions.  You'd expect the Cryo/Inferno difference to skew more towards Inferno on missions where fire-dancing actually kicks in, but that requires testing.

I'm not the biggest fan of Squad Cryo since I am a Widow-taker when it comes to Soldiering, but with the Revenant I don't see how running Inferno + Squad Cryo is not the best loadout for EVERY mission.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:46 .

[Simbacca]

ezrafetch wrote...

Simbacca wrote...

That's just it, they perform about the same, yet you took less damage while using Cryo.

As OniGanon said, Tuchanka dudes don't panic from Inferno, so Kronner's tests, while still informative, carry a lot less power when you try to apply them to non-BP missions.  You'd expect the Cryo/Inferno difference to skew more towards Inferno on missions where fire-dancing actually kicks in, but that requires testing.

I'm not the biggest fan of Squad Cryo since I am a Widow-taker when it comes to Soldiering, but with the Revenant I don't see how running Inferno + Squad Cryo is not the best loadout for EVERY mission.

That's exactly what I said the next test was, non-Blood Pack missions, which in all logic should skew even more in Cryo Ammo's favor since it would be against shielded and / or barriered organics instead of armored organics.  Inferno loses the slight defense stripping speed it had in these previous trial runs.

Not to mention the fact that we are now discussing how to find a mission where rank 4 Inferno will be clearly faster than even rank 1 Cryo on the Rev.  As I said in my last post, we haven't even tried comparing against the equally ranked Improved Cryo Ammo yet, which supposedly freezes faster (though that may only be worth it for solo runs, like Kronners last vids).

Modifié par Simbacca, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:56 .

[Kronner]

Yeah, I am probably gonna try Improved Cryo. Squad version did not freeze fast enough (did Garrus' LM) and Inferno was better - it was solo again to prevent any squad interference.

(btw Shock Trooper is purely for RP reasons, I know Commando would be better)

Modifié par Kronner, 15 septembre 2010 - 08:47 .

[OniGanon]

I think it's the high health that really matters. Not sure normal enemies have the health for Cryo to take effect on a weapon as rapid firing as the Revenant.

[RGFrog]

I would think that with the rev's high rate of auto fire, inferno would be better. Each shot is supposed to stack the inferno effects which should melt through armor and health pdq... It's 60% of weap over 3 seconds, meaning 20%/s... The rev is supposed to get off 11.6 rounds/s at a base damage of 21.3 per round. If every shot hits, that's 247.08 dps. that should be roughly 49.5 dps PER HIT per/s on armor... on health that should be an additional 568/s (again providing all 11.6 rounds hit).

This doesn't take into account modifiers or reductions for hardcore/insanity. But, it does show that with a rev, not much should still be coming at you for more than a second or two.

How long does it take from the initial shot to the shot or melee that shatters with cryo? Looking at Kroner's vid it's hard to tell with AR going off, but it seems about the same amount of time to kill with cryo as it does with inferno... Does that seem right?

[ezrafetch]

Also, keep in mind the AoE firedancing from Inferno. From Cryo, you have to personally point your Cryo CC-ness at each enemy for them to freeze, i.e.:

Three dudes, fire Inferno at them, you induce CC on all of them killing one of them ASAP, the others can't fire at you because they're also fire-dancing. Repeat the process and you can easily end up with a scenario where you take zero fire because they're all too busy firedancing.

Three dudes, fire Cryo at them, induce CC on one but you still gotta point and induce the freeze on the other two because Cryo lacks AoE. You're still taking fire until the last guy is frozen. Either you spend time freezing all three at once, meaning you're not killing them as fast (though they're good as dead), or you just lock down one, kill it, and move on and lockdown + kill the second and etc., which seems pretty slow.  Not (as) good.

The reason why Squad Cryo shines and Heavy Cryo doesn't is because with multiple squadmates, you get multiple instances of Cryo getting applied, hence allowing for better battlefield manipulation. Only one source of Cryo is ineffective because you can't spread it fast enough. Locking down one enemy with Cryo certainly seems lackluster when you can apply virtual lockdown on an AoE scale with Inferno.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 16 septembre 2010 - 12:48 .