203 réponses à ce sujet

[Khuutra]

This is the weirdest debate in a long time - and don't misunderstand me, I love "who would beat up who" arguments. I do. It's ust that there's so little material on which to compare them.

Here is what we know:

1. All feats for the characters in question occur within the games.

2. None of the characters ever actually pit their biotic abilities against each othr, except for Morinth vs. Samara and a chair-throw from Jack that Miranda biotically dodges.

3. Jack is the only character who has a power-based "feat" that we see wherein she is going all-out. All other feats of power tend to either occur in gameplay or involve people not going all-out.

4. Universal cooldowns make canonical sense, since biotics have to concentrate on one thingn at a time and canonically, no biotic (even a Reaper-empowered Grayson or Harbinger) is able to throw out two powers at the same time, though very powerful ones can throw them out in rapid succession.

Do we agree on these points? I hope we do. All of them are true, so there's no point in arguing over them.

I'm going to address character-specific points her in the order that I think of them.

A. Samara, Jack, and Morinth have the same amount of trouble holding up the field and use the same amount of force at the end of the field run in the Collector Base. There is no apparent power difference in this sequence.

B. Miranda, Thane, and Jacob all lose control of the field at roughly the same time. There is no apparent power difference in this sequence.

C. Kaidan notes that as an L2 (and a powerful one), his biotic abilities spike considerably higher than any L3 who isn't Commander Shepard.

D. We know from Ascension that Singularity is among the most advanced of all biotic techniques and is almost impossible to pull off unless the user is enormously powerful. Most biotics - even asari - can't form a combat-capable biotic Singularity. The fact that Liara can makes her much more powerful than the average asari commando.

E. There is no notable difference in strength between Samara and Morinth in 2185.

F. Samara single-handedly slaughtered an entire village full of biotics who were out to kill her, which would have included their asari commando militia.

G. Jack is capable of exerting enough biotic force in short bursts to rip through steel walls and tear apart YMIR mechs.

H. We have no particular gauge by which to measure Wrex's biotic strength, except what he can do in gameplay (lift a geth colossus into the air) and what is generally expected of krogan biotics - where they exist they tend to be extremely powerful, as with Skarr, who threw a 4-ton APC through the air with his mind. Part of what makes battlemasters so terrifying is that krogan seem to be as strong in biotics as they are in the arm - their combat focus enhances their biotic strength, rather than taking away from it.

I. Wrex and his asari friend tore apart a space station and killed hundreds if not thousands of mercs, slavers, and assorted batarian terrorists - not because they meant to, but by accident while fighting each other.

So, what does all of this mean?

It doesn't mean anything.

All that matters is that Liara can use Singularity, Samara Morinth and Jack can hold up the bubble while your other ME2 squadmates can't, Kaidan is probably the most powerful combat-effective biotic the Alliance has, and Wrex will mess you up.

And if it came down to it, Shepard could kill any of them. So there.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

GodWood wrote...
Well then what is important to you is wrong.

That's a good attitude to have...

GodWood wrote...Gameplay is designed to be fun for the player to play, its not a true representation of the games lore and the abilities of the characters.

And cut scenes were meant to entertain and look pretty/flashy. Your point?

GodWood wrote...
@ everyone else, Liara is not that strong a biotic.

Sure, but just because you say so. 

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 09 septembre 2010 - 01:02 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Samara and Jack are supposed to be top tier biotics, but Liara is probably a little more effective in actual combat after LoTSB.

[sinosleep]

Khuutra wrote...

D. We know from Ascension that Singularity is among the most advanced of all biotic techniques and is almost impossible to pull off unless the user is enormously powerful. Most biotics - even asari - can't form a combat-capable biotic Singularity. The fact that Liara can makes her much more powerful than the average asari commando.

I KNEW that was mentioned someone where but couldn't peg it. I was going to mention her having access to singularity when I was talking about her cutscenes and the comic but I couldn't remember where it was specified that singularity to a high class biotic to cast.

[Kai Hohiro]

Khuutra wrote...

So, what does all of this mean?

It doesn't mean anything.

All that matters is that Liara can use Singularity, Samara Morinth and Jack can hold up the bubble while your other ME2 squadmates can't, Kaidan is probably the most powerful combat-effective biotic the Alliance has, and Wrex will mess you up.

And if it came down to it, Shepard could kill any of them. So there.

Good stuff what you wrote up there

Some people in this thread remind me of kids arguing about powerlevels in Dragonballs or whatever.

There is no powermeter in Mass Effect that tells you someone has "what over 9000?!" biotic power. We have many points that hint at how powerful in biotics a character is, but little that is precise.

Sure the scene with the biotic barrior during the suicide mission does tell us that Jack/Samara/Morinth are more powerful biotic wise than the other ME2 biotics. But other than that we don't have any facts that are 100% conclusive where the rest of the cast ranks.

(but I personally could get behind the idea that the NPC cooldown timers are a decent indicator)

Modifié par Kai Hohiro, 09 septembre 2010 - 01:36 .

[RGFrog]

Great post, Khuutra!

Modifié par RGFrog, 09 septembre 2010 - 04:07 .

[Collider]

The thing with some of them is that it's power vs. skill or brain vs. brawn.

For example I'm not sure if Samara's biotics are more powerful than Jack's - but Jack has the advantage of being *the* most powerful human biotic. But Samara is obviously more experienced.

[RGFrog]

The implant things are a bit confusing. L2's are powerful, and there is documentation that they are more powerful but less stable than L3's. L5X/L5N, though? There's no comparison there. One can assume they are more powerful than whatever Jack has originally since she suggests and provides specs for her own upgrade (was she the only one implanted with a ziff socket or something?). So, is it a safe assumption that biotic shep, already having the L5's is more powerful than Jack from the start?

Personally, I think Kaiden could defeat Jack any day. As could Wrex, Liara, Samara/Morinth, and even Miranda. But that's because she's an out of control rage machine. Anyone with biotic combat experience could easily hide behind one of the millions of crates in the ME universe that are immune to all forms of damage--heck, put Shep. in armor made from the crates and he'd be invincible--and wait for her to wear herself out. A pull and a throw and she'd be floating to her death down an abyss.

The point being that raw power, while useful, isn't everything.

Now, when humans can learn to do that jump from 10 stories and biotic-float to a soft landing, then the reapers will know fear

Modifié par RGFrog, 09 septembre 2010 - 04:08 .

[UrNoseKnows]

Collider wrote...

The thing with some of them is that it's power vs. skill or brain vs. brawn.
For example I'm not sure if Samara's biotics are more powerful than Jack's - but Jack has the advantage of being *the* most powerful human biotic. But Samara is obviously more experienced.

They should have allowed Samara and Jack duke it out on Illium when Jack's line about stealing and Samara would stop her came up

[PsyrenY]

yorkj86 wrote...

Whatever else Jack had done to her at Teltin makes her extremely powerful, beyond just biotic implants. I do think her biotics are stronger than Shepard's.

I agree - but how much stronger is still debatable. Jack's LM actually shows you how much WASN'T done to her at Teltin. Sure they tortured/screwed with her, but they saved the truly dangerous/traumatic stuff for the other kids, so they wouldn't accidentally lose her.

I maintain that Shepard's trauma (should he become an Adept) has the potential to compare with Jack's. The fact that Adept Shep can also make a Singularity - an ability available to no other squadmate in EITHER game, save Liara - and could do so with L3 implants which are supposedly weaker than L2s, is telling.

Even Kaidan and Miranda, who have far above human average biotic strength (due to L2s and genetic tailoring respectively) appear unable to make a singularity. Take that with a grain of salt of course; after all, by the game mechanics Jack can't make one either. (She certainly has the juice to do so, at least.)

[Spectre_907]

RGFrog wrote...

The implant things are a bit confusing. L2's are powerful, and there is documentation that they are more powerful but less stable than L3's. L5X/L5N, though? There's no comparison there. One can assume they are more powerful than whatever Jack has originally since she suggests and provides specs for her own upgrade (was she the only one implanted with a ziff socket or something?). So, is it a safe assumption that biotic shep, already having the L5's is more powerful than Jack from the start?

I think L5x/n implants are just specialized L5 implants for Cerberus adepts or vanguards and allow for them to use their specialties more efficiently or make them more streamlined. L5x's are specifically designed to create singularities and L5n's allow for the biotic to phase through objects, augment speed, and propell their bodies with a force greater than that of a biotic throw.

Some L2's are only as powerful as L1's and some more than L3's. My guess is that the distribution of L2 biotics is more skewed than that of the L3's with your outliers at the ends (like Shepard or Kaidan).

L4 implants give a 10-15% increase in biotic ability in 90% of the biotics with such implants compared to L3s. The distribution of biotic ability for L5s would be either greater than or equal to the output of an L4. I would think that L4 was a prototype for the L5.

Experiments with Jack were done before Ascension was put into place so I'm pretty sure she was an L3. She would be too old to be an L2. Jack comes across schematics for an L5x upgrade to her implant (which is the upgrade you get from her) which would give her the same ability to create a singularity as Shepard. But Shepard could create one as an L3 which I assume Jack can not do. Assuming Jack could not create singularities, Shepard as an adept would be more gifted as a biotic than Jack but Jack's experimentation and retrofit let her create more powerful mass effect fields than Shepard. As a vanguard, my guess is that they are evenly matched in terms of power with Jack having a slight edge with her retrofit.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 09 septembre 2010 - 08:54 .

[GodWood]

[quote]V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
[quote]GodWood wrote...
Well then what is important to you is wrong.[/quote]

That's a good attitude to have...[/quote]
A completely valid one too, if someones opinion is wrong I'm allowed to say it is.
Eg)Someone says the world is flat, regardless of how they explain it they are wrong.

[quote]
[quote]GodWood wrote...Gameplay is designed to be fun for the player to play, its not a true representation of the games lore and the abilities of the characters.[/quote]
And cut scenes were meant to entertain and look pretty/flashy. Your point?[/quote]
And one could say the whole game purely designed to entertain which doesn't help anything.
We are discussing a games lore and which characters are the strongest based on it and the best way to figure this out is through what happens in cutscenes, dialogue etc.
Not gameplay as that'd mean since the year 2185 Shepard lost the ability to crouch when ever he wants.
[quote]GodWood wrote...
@ everyone else, Liara is not that strong a biotic.[/quote]
Sure, but just because you say so. [/quote]No because shes still a young (barely out of childhood), untrained asari scientist, sure she has natural potential but that doesn't mean shes stronger then Samara or Jack.

EDIT: quoting fail

Modifié par GodWood, 11 septembre 2010 - 05:17 .

[RGFrog]

Hmm... I wanna see Samara fight the Yahg (sp?)...

[Nooneyouknow13]

Kaidan also notes that Shepard is an L3 even if you're not playing a biotic class. I've had him say that to every single ME1 character I've made. That out of the way, the game tells you straight up that adept Shepard has an L5x, and Vangaurd Shep has an L5n on the class selection screen in ME2. Lazarus upgrades.



Liara is noted by everyone as being ridiculously powerful in elevator conversation in the first game, and she's not untrained. Liara is very driven to accomplish things for an Asari of her age, the rest of them are all off being strippers still, maybe transitioning to merc. Jack likely has more raw output than Shep, but she lacks discipline.

[Boombox]

This is how I'd rank them-



1. Samara- She's had a lot of experience and we're told people don't always survive Justicar training. From what we've seen she looks to be the strongest.



2. Morinth- She'd probaby outgrow Samara in strength but if she was stronger than Samara as she is now she wouldn't have been running for so long.



3. Jack- Easily the strongest Human Biotic but I don't think she'd be as strong as an experience Asari.



4. Liara- She's a strong biotic but still young. She doesn't seem to have had as much experience as the others, I think eventually she'll outgrow Jack tho'.



5. Kaidan- We havn't seen him do much but we're told that he's L2 implants spike higher than usual. Wrex was impressed with his biotic strength, he has a lot of battle experience so I think that says something.



6. Miranda- I think she'd be close to Kaidan but maybe not as much experience, we're told she stronger than the usual human biotic.



7. Wrex- Has a lot of battle experience but probably uses his brute strenght rather than biotics.



8. Jacob- We don't see him use biotics much, nobody talks about his ability so I can't imagin him being very strong.



9. Thane- We havn't seen him use his biotics much, he seems to rely on his other skills more so perhaps his biotic abilities aren't as good.

[AntiChri5]

1. Jack. She is described to you by someone who has more knowledge of your Biotic abilities then you as the most powerful human Biotic. She tears a space station apart in a temper tantrum. I list her above Samara simply because this is about sheer power. Jack is more powerful then Samara in the same way the Cain is more powerful then the Mattock. Yeah, one blast from the Cain could destroy a small moon, but if you had to pick between one or the other which would you go with?



2. Samara/Morinth. Obvious reasons for their power and skill. They reach a complete stalemate, and not even Morinth will claim to be a superior Biotic, stating she is "just as powerful".



3. Liara. Her power has been made fairly clear. She is good, but not great. She certainly will be though.



4. Shepard.



5. Wrex. Krogan dont **** around. He is a battlemaster, one of the most feared beings in the galaxy. Everything i have heard about Krogan Biotics suggests they are just as strong as a Krogans other aspects.



Kaidan or Miranda. Not enough information to tell. One is remarkable, the other designed for perfection.



Jacob.



Thane.

[JaegerBane]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
IMO, Warp ammo is just ammo - I just don't see even the most skilled biotic consciously enveloping every speeding bullet fired from their gun in a miniature Warp field.

Whether you 'see it' or not is irrelevant - in game, it's described as being a complex and difficult biotic ability, supported by the fact that it's exceptionally rare, even amongst Asari, despite it's obvious effectiveness and synergy with a biotic's bag of tricks.

It's a power that one would assume would be a no-brainer for an Asari commando or a biotic Spectre, yet is only wielded by Jack - logically, that implies they either don't have the ability to do it or lack expertise in it. Either way, it is both logically and stylistically an example of an advanced biotic ability.

This is supported by the fact that you can disable one's ability to use biotics by taking out their arms, which is described in an article in Thane's dossier on how he kills Asaris. It seems that you cannot generate Warp/ME fields just by thinking about it, and there is no arm movement when either Shepherd or his companions are firing Warp ammo.

I think you've misunderstood the article - you don't generate biotics using your arms or whatever, biotic fields are generated by firing specific nerves in the biotic's nervous system. For simplicity's sake, most biotics train themselves into using a physical mnemonic (such as a punching motion or a grabbing motion) using their arms to fire the correct nerve, but logically there doesn't seem to be anything stopping you from using something other than your arms to set off the right nerve.

I mean, Shepard and others can generate a Barrier with apparently no physical mnemonic required while there are several points where Samara clearly generates a biotic field apparently just by concentration - to the extent where it almost looks like a form of meditation. Using motions apparently makes it easier, but it doesn't sound like something required.

Jack could have a modified Shadowstrike (like Kasumi). Except that instead of cloaking behind an enemy, Jack can charge them, strike, and charge back. 

I agree that a modified Charge ability would have fit Jack a bit better than her current power set, which seems to have more in common with ME1's interpretation of a Vanguard.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 11 septembre 2010 - 01:08 .

[JaegerBane]

AntiChri5 wrote...

1. Jack. She is described to you by someone who has more knowledge of your Biotic abilities then you as the most powerful human Biotic. She tears a space station apart in a temper tantrum. I list her above Samara simply because this is about sheer power. Jack is more powerful then Samara in the same way the Cain is more powerful then the Mattock. Yeah, one blast from the Cain could destroy a small moon, but if you had to pick between one or the other which would you go with?

TIM isn't exactly the most reliable source of info. TIM didn't even draw the link between Garrus and Archangel, and his knowledge of what happened in Jack's project is sketchy by his own admission. And IIRC, all we hear about the space station is that Jack crashed it into a hanar moon - apparently out of delinquency. There isn't anything to suggest that this is any more than a commentary on her criminal behaviour. I mean, Adept shepard blew up Saren's base with a nuclear explosion. That doesn't mean he must have used his biotics to do it.

[AntiChri5]

Im not talking about that station, but the one you meet her on. She is angry so she tears it apart.

[Nooneyouknow13]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Im not talking about that station, but the one you meet her on. She is angry so she tears it apart.

Purgatory isn't a space station, it's a livestock transport ship. 

[RGFrog]

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

Kaidan also notes that Shepard is an L3 even if you're not playing a biotic class. I've had him say that to every single ME1 character I've made. That out of the way, the game tells you straight up that adept Shepard has an L5x, and Vangaurd Shep has an L5n on the class selection screen in ME2. Lazarus upgrades.

Liara is noted by everyone as being ridiculously powerful in elevator conversation in the first game, and she's not untrained. Liara is very driven to accomplish things for an Asari of her age, the rest of them are all off being strippers still, maybe transitioning to merc. Jack likely has more raw output than Shep, but she lacks discipline.

Sadly, everyone is forgetting tha Shep. is not the same Shep from ME1.

He's been completely rebuilt. That means anything Kaiden would have said about original Shep no longer applies. If he's noted as being L5 in ME2 that's what he is now. Not L3.

[RGFrog]

AntiChri5 wrote...

1. Jack. She is described to you by someone who has more knowledge of your Biotic abilities then you as the most powerful human Biotic. She tears a space station apart in a temper tantrum. I list her above Samara simply because this is about sheer power. Jack is more powerful then Samara in the same way the Cain is more powerful then the Mattock. Yeah, one blast from the Cain could destroy a small moon, but if you had to pick between one or the other which would you go with?

2. Samara/Morinth. Obvious reasons for their power and skill. They reach a complete stalemate, and not even Morinth will claim to be a superior Biotic, stating she is "just as powerful".

3. Liara. Her power has been made fairly clear. She is good, but not great. She certainly will be though.

4. Shepard.

5. Wrex. Krogan dont **** around. He is a battlemaster, one of the most feared beings in the galaxy. Everything i have heard about Krogan Biotics suggests they are just as strong as a Krogans other aspects.

Kaidan or Miranda. Not enough information to tell. One is remarkable, the other designed for perfection.

Jacob.

Thane.

For the most part I agree with you Anti, except for two points. A powerful biotic Assari will beat out a human any day. Just because Jack is noted as being the most powerful human does not itself imply humanity has reached the level of biotics an assari that specializes in them has. Assari can train their biotics, so, much like Jack somehow gets stronger as she's dieing, they get stronger the more they use/train them.

I'd also flip jacob and thane. Mainly because Jacob only has 1 biotic, pull. It's a defensive cast. Where Thane has two biotics, throw and warp. Defensive and offensive. Since nothing is really said about either's use, I'd think this would put thane before jacob.