203 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

Kaidan also notes that Shepard is an L3 even if you're not playing a biotic class. I've had him say that to every single ME1 character I've made. That out of the way, the game tells you straight up that adept Shepard has an L5x, and Vangaurd Shep has an L5n on the class selection screen in ME2. Lazarus upgrades.

Did you happen to give those characters biotic bonus talents? I only got it on my soldier when he had Lift as a bonus.

[Khuutra]

yorkj86 wrote...

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Im not talking about that station, but the one you meet her on. She is angry so she tears it apart.

Purgatory isn't a space station, it's a livestock transport ship. 

It's a "maximum security prison starship".  "Starship" describes a wide range of space-vessels, but you don't have to be specific to know that it's a very large ship.  You can see this from just walking around inside it.  If you listen to the voice over the intercom, you can hear that she's quickly blowing apart several levels and blocks.

This is kind of a false assumption.

You let loose every prisoner on the ship. Jack isn't necessarily the one who did most of the damage. There were thousands of criminals - undoubtedly a good handful of them biotics - who were tearing the place apart.

[RGFrog]

Oh, she does a fair amount of work. There's a vid of her doing some pretty amazing stuff in the Shadow Broker archives However, i'm not too sure how much "damage" she does as it would be fatally stupid to blast a hole to space. It's unlikely even she would survive long without oxygen or something to protect her bare skin from the cold.

[searanox]

I find pretty much all choices of party member within the same class to be purely cosmetic. So long as you build them in a complementary manner, there's no particular reason to value one over another except for aesthetic reasons.  I tend to vary my choices for the sake of variety.

Modifié par searanox, 12 septembre 2010 - 01:24 .

[Khuutra]

yorkj86 wrote...

Khuutra wrote...

This is kind of a false assumption.

You let loose every prisoner on the ship. Jack isn't necessarily the one who did most of the damage. There were thousands of criminals - undoubtedly a good handful of them biotics - who were tearing the place apart.

And yet, she's the prisoner the guards are most worried about, the one everyone is being ordered to be contained.  If anyone's doing the substantial damage, it's Jack.

Not... quite

"Well at least we can recapture Ja-OH MY GOD IT'S SHEPARD KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT"

An I'm not saying Jack isn't doing more damage than any other singl individual, but she wasn't the only one tearing that place apart. Pretending that she was is being disengenuous. She didn't come near the vast majority of the sectors that lost life support.

[Khuutra]

yorkj86 wrote...

Khuutra wrote...

Not... quite

"Well at least we can recapture Ja-OH MY GOD IT'S SHEPARD KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT"

An I'm not saying Jack isn't doing more damage than any other singl individual, but she wasn't the only one tearing that place apart. Pretending that she was is being disengenuous. She didn't come near the vast majority of the sectors that lost life support.

How can you tell?

A couple of ways.

1. You follow her on a direct path through areas where she's already been. You are hot on her trail the whole time. You never go through an area that doesn't have life support.

2. She isn't dead from being in an area with no life support.

There are hundreds or thouands of prisoners in that ship leading a riot of such violence that even Jack is just one more person inside of it. Jack does a lot of damage, but she's not the reason the Purgatory goes down in flames.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Jack is a famous criminal on the ship, reputation can overstate actual ability. Not to say she's weak, she is implied to be the strongest human biotic recorded. However, asari are natural biotics, Samara is going to be leading that pack with Morinth following close on her heels. Third would probably be Jack due to all the tinkering that has been done to her. Liara has the greatest potential but she's got centuries before she really gets there. Wrex likely beats her out, again, due to experience and specialized training in using his biotics. Kaiden is just an L2, but he's been fighting on equal footing as most of the biotics encountered, testament to both his determination and skill at using his power. Miranda was engineered for peak human potentials, but not above them, and training wasn't focused on them. Thane and Jacob.. I never really got why they were biotics in the first place but... eh. Adept, or even Vanguard, Shepard is tricky to place either way, plot armor boosts his/her standing a lot, enough to put her on even footing with most asari matrons with light support.



So my list would be:

Tier 1

Samara

Morinth

Jack

Wrex



Tier 2

Liara

Shepard

Miranda



Tier 3

Kaiden

Thane

Jacob

[godlike13]

Samara/Morinth

Liara

Jack

Wrex

Miranda

Kaiden

Thane

Jacob



Shepard varies

[adriano_c]

Jack

Samara/Morinth

Liara

Wrex

Miranda

Thane

Kaidan

Jacob

[Spectre_907]

RGFrog wrote...

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

Kaidan also notes that Shepard is an L3 even if you're not playing a biotic class. I've had him say that to every single ME1 character I've made. That out of the way, the game tells you straight up that adept Shepard has an L5x, and Vangaurd Shep has an L5n on the class selection screen in ME2. Lazarus upgrades.

Liara is noted by everyone as being ridiculously powerful in elevator conversation in the first game, and she's not untrained. Liara is very driven to accomplish things for an Asari of her age, the rest of them are all off being strippers still, maybe transitioning to merc. Jack likely has more raw output than Shep, but she lacks discipline.

Sadly, everyone is forgetting tha Shep. is not the same Shep from ME1.

He's been completely rebuilt. That means anything Kaiden would have said about original Shep no longer applies. If he's noted as being L5 in ME2 that's what he is now. Not L3.

Agree. But Jacob does mention that the Lazarus project was meant to bring back Shepard exactly as he/she was. Then Shepard states that he/she noticed several upgrades when talking to the Illusive Man (choose "Not bad" when TIM asks you how you are feeling). Shepard would have to be at or above his/her biotic abilities than he/she was as an L3. Also, as I said in my last post, an L4 yielded a 10-15 percent increase in biotic ability in 90% of the subjects implanted compared to that of an L3s. If an L5 is supposed to be the latest biotic implant (and supposedly the most powerful according to the wiki), an L5 would be either greater than or equal to that of an L4 in terms of increase in power. I believe Kaidan's claim to Shepard's biotic abilities is still a good indicator.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 12 septembre 2010 - 05:54 .

[Super ._. Shepard]

shepard is the best biotic has the best cooldown and most biotic powers

[Gokuthegrate]

Starts with:

Samara/Morinth

Liara

Wrex

Shep

Jack

Kaiden

Miranda

Thane

Jacob

[Elyvern]

RGFrog wrote...

For the most part I agree with you Anti, except for two points. A powerful biotic Assari will beat out a human any day. Just because Jack is noted as being the most powerful human does not itself imply humanity has reached the level of biotics an assari that specializes in them has. Assari can train their biotics, so, much like Jack somehow gets stronger as she's dieing, they get stronger the more they use/train them.

I'd also flip jacob and thane. Mainly because Jacob only has 1 biotic, pull. It's a defensive cast. Where Thane has two biotics, throw and warp. Defensive and offensive. Since nothing is really said about either's use, I'd think this would put thane before jacob.

You're forgetting Jacob has pull as well as barrier, on par defensively and offensively as Thane. I can never figure out why Jacob and Thane are biotics anyway. Possibly, Bioware needed to diversify the skillsets that all 12 squadmates have.

I'm also curious as to what kind of bio-amp Miranda is using. Jacob, by the virtue of his age, would probably be using L3s. But Miranda's birth year doesn't even coincide with the first documented accident on eezo exposure; ie. she shouldn't have biotic abilities in the first place. But my take is since she's older than Kaidan and Shepard, she should be using L2s, but she doesn't seem to suffer any side effects at all?

[RGFrog]

Who says she's using implants at all. She's a modified, built from the ground up, human. She's probably using biotics without an implant like an assari. I wouldn't put it past her father. Unless I'm wrong about the assari. Then I would say she's using an L666 implant. Cuz that body is built for nothing but sin.

[Nooneyouknow13]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

Kaidan also notes that Shepard is an L3 even if you're not playing a biotic class. I've had him say that to every single ME1 character I've made. That out of the way, the game tells you straight up that adept Shepard has an L5x, and Vangaurd Shep has an L5n on the class selection screen in ME2. Lazarus upgrades.

Did you happen to give those characters biotic bonus talents? I only got it on my soldier when he had Lift as a bonus.

Got told that as a Solider with Electronics, and an Infiltrator with Hacking. Honestly, it may just come up after Biotic bonus talents are unlcoked though, but having Shep's history have him as Biotic whether he's trained or not makes sense, especailly when adding bonus talents in.

[Nooneyouknow13]

Modifié par Nooneyouknow13, 14 septembre 2010 - 08:50 .

[Zan Mura]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Gameplay use of biotics and Story use of biotics are not the same thing, To imply Cooldowns are a factor of a characters biotic skill story wise is just not plausible

You continue to point out that gameplay and story are not the same thing, but what you should realise is that the story in ME isn't all-encompassing since it rarely takes any stand at all regardless of Shepard's personal abilities. There's a lot of compromise and untold information there. Also, the gameplay IS the story, as far as our experiences go. You can't just rule it out as completely irrelevant. There are numerous inconsistencies that prove it's not as simple as just slapping Jack as the most powerful biotic, or doing the same to anyone else for that matter.

In the suicide mission, Jack and Samara are both equally viable biotic specialists, both wearing out by the same amount. Legion and Tali are equally capable tech experts, when it seems pretty obvious Legion should be aeons ahead of Tali story-wise. The suicide mission events where Shepard lifts heavy objects (extremely heavy tbh, those heavy irony clangs and sounds are there for a reason) even Grunt can't get out from under, or the LotSB where even an adept Shepard can beat the crap out of the Shadow Broker with her bare hands, are all compromises that still have some significance. Shepard is cybernetically enhanced, obviously implied to be considerably more powerful than a normal human being, yet still there are inconsistencies considering Grunt's insanely superior genes and battle-knowledge and how that still plays out in the story.

The point I'm getting at here is that there is no one truth here which would enable anyone to set a definite and perfect order to the powers of these characters. This all is ultimately just a matter of opinion, some of those opinions are based on more information than others, but they are only opinions nonetheless. You cannot take one part of the story as fact, and outrule another one as "balance for the sake of gameplay" or "not enough time to make two different scenes for soldier & adept Shepards who may or may not have upgraded". Even if you were right, you've no idea and more importantly no authority to decide where the line is drawn between compromises in budget, and actual story-related fact.

In my eyes, I would place Jack, Samara and Liara as the top 3, in that order. Shepard would be somewhere in the shared 3:rd or 4:th place, but replace with skill, versatility and tactical awareness what the others possess in pure power. Also her military training even as an adept grants her better overall combat abilities which complement her biotics. But even though I agree that story-wise Shepard isn't among the most formidable biotics in the galaxy, gameplay-wise she most certainly does belong there. And if someone wants to play their Shepard as a biotic God, none of us have any right or any proof of any kind to deny them that. The point being that the story simply does NOT limit this possibility. It never has any opinions on Shepard's own powers, whatever they may be.

There's ultimately nothing to outrule the possibility that Shepard could be among the strongest in the galaxy in whatever profession he or she has taken. She has N7 training, Spectre training, training from the very best specialists the galaxy has to offer (the Advanced abilities from loyal teammates), all the knowledge and experience from the Prothean beacons and mind melding with a Thorian-bound Asari, and the best implants and upgrades even money can't buy from Cerberus and beyond. She is a truly, TRULY exceptional individual. A one of a kind. Something many people seem to forget by ruling her out as a simple playable leader type character with your basic protagonist's extra arsenal. It's just that her abilities, reputation and influence as a leader are more important than her power as an individual combatant. Which may blind people to her personal combat power, even story-wise.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 14 septembre 2010 - 09:40 .

[swk3000]

Reading through the first and last page, I would like to make a note: An upgrade to the Biotic Amps doesn't necessarily mean more power. For example, L3 Amps are actually *weaker* than the L2 Amps. However, they're considered an upgrade because they are far more stable than the L2's. They don't get as much power, but there are no horrific side effects (such as insanity) to go along with it. The L5x and L5n implants may simply be a version that gives all the power of the L2 Amps, but without any of the side effects.



Also, those who are pointing out that Jack can take out a Space Station: So what? Jack is nothing more than a Berserker. She's plenty powerful when she's mad, but she has no idea how to do anything other than keep hitting things until they're dead. Part of being 'powerful' is knowing how to use that power. Without that ability to keep your head in combat, Jack is going to screw up. What if her Biotic Slam-thing had missed one of the mechs watching her when she woke up? She probably would have ended up dead from either a rocked or a chain-gun to the back, and then this entire discussion would be moot.



Power is important, but so is knowing how to use that power. To me, that means that Jack is actually in the lower tiers, not the upper ones.

[tonnactus]

Shadow_broker wrote...




Jack is most powerful biotic bar none

Not ,its aria then...
Destroying a pretorian and a harbinger drone just with biotics...

[JaegerBane]

swk3000 wrote...

Reading through the first and last page, I would like to make a note: An upgrade to the Biotic Amps doesn't necessarily mean more power. For example, L3 Amps are actually *weaker* than the L2 Amps. However, they're considered an upgrade because they are far more stable than the L2's. They don't get as much power, but there are no horrific side effects (such as insanity) to go along with it. The L5x and L5n implants may simply be a version that gives all the power of the L2 Amps, but without any of the side effects.

I would imagine it would be unlikely for an organisation like Cerberus to go for less-powerful-but-safer options. They seem to be the guys who pay any price for sheer power.

[RGFrog]

Shep. is not human. He's bio-synthetic. Pretty much all of him was destroyed in the vacuum and near absolute zero temps of space... not to mention burning up on reentry, which may or may not have happened.

He's been upgraded. Perhaps the only thing that's the same are his measurements. Cerb. wouldn't have spent billions recreating him, then put in the weakest biotics (if that's the course choose). They have the data from jack. They have the data from Miranda. They have the data from Teltin (spelling?). They have data from assari and krogan. That's what they do.

I think they would have incorporated whatever was the absolute best into Sheppard barring only the things that would have changed his persona. He was brought back to deal with a race that had unknown power. Cerberus wouldn't have sent any regular off the rack Sheppard when they had a chance to make sure he had everything he needed to get the job done.

Don't think he'll be the last, either. Cerb. worked out how to do it all on Shep. No doubt they will be building other super-humans

Shep. is in Tier 1 no matter what. He's tier 1 of whatever group you put him in. Cerb. wouldn't have spent any money if all they'd get is second best. They'd merely take that money and buy whatever was the best.