417 réponses à ce sujet

[Maverick827]

I don't think fixing "major" bugs is even the most pressing issue; it's fixing the single-line typos and logic errors that result in useless talents, mis-modeled equipment, and mistakenly recognized plot choices that would take all of a day to fix.

The community has already pointed out and stably fixed many of these errors. There is no acceptable reason why BioWare has not yet echoed these fixes in official patches for the console.

[Tatinger]

Until they fix Awakening (the bugs in Origins and all the DLC material I never really had much of a problem with or, at the very least, could work around with minimum effort), I will continue to refer to them as Bio-I-Don't-Care. I will not be purchasing DA2 on release, as a result.

Modifié par Tatinger, 11 septembre 2010 - 01:38 .

[tishyw]

Anathemic wrote...

tishyw wrote...

Faz432 wrote...

Something from the stream keeps echoing in my mind, and that's when David Gaider said that they pretty much started work on DA2 just after DA:O was released. It's easy to forget that it's not even been 1 year since DA:O was released, which kinda just boggles my mind. How they've managed to concept, write, design and develop, plus whatever else they need to do in such a short amount of time?

As has been mentioned in other threads, Dragon Age was finished and ready for PC realease at the beginning of 2009, EA got them to hold the release so it could be ported to consoles and released on those at the same time as the PC.

Keeping that in mind, it's about a 2yr turn around, so not as short as it seems.

Correction: 1 year and 4 months... not even 2 years

Did you read my post?

From the begining of 2009 to the beginning of 2011 is 2 years, not 1 year and 4 months!

[Kileyan]

I love you guys Bioware, but I have to admit the response to bugs has changed dramatically since you went multiplatform. It is obvious no bug will ever be fixed unless it is pushed with a DLC or expansion. More often, bugs are just considered non game breaking and not worth the dollar to fix.



I miss the days, when post release, I could visit the NWN's forums 20 hours later, and find several devs giving us fixes asap. Hell they even posted for wishlists of quality of life fixes, that is unheard of today. To think dev's would add to a game, not just fix bugs.



I know it really isn't laziness on your parts, it is console cert procedures, and the inability to give PC's special favoritism and the PR backlashes that would follow.



With that in mind, player made mods usually fix the quality of life issues and bugs that aren't deemed worthy of fixes. I will be a little put off, if DA2 is released with no tools for players to fix the inevitable problems. I don't like waiting 3 months for a major DLC release, to get a patch to a game.

[Blastback]

Kileyan wrote...

I love you guys Bioware, but I have to admit the response to bugs has changed dramatically since you went multiplatform. It is obvious no bug will ever be fixed unless it is pushed with a DLC or expansion. More often, bugs are just considered non game breaking and not worth the dollar to fix.

I miss the days, when post release, I could visit the NWN's forums 20 hours later, and find several devs giving us fixes asap. Hell they even posted for wishlists of quality of life fixes, that is unheard of today. To think dev's would add to a game, not just fix bugs.

I know it really isn't laziness on your parts, it is console cert procedures, and the inability to give PC's special favoritism and the PR backlashes that would follow.

With that in mind, player made mods usually fix the quality of life issues and bugs that aren't deemed worthy of fixes. I will be a little put off, if DA2 is released with no tools for players to fix the inevitable problems. I don't like waiting 3 months for a major DLC release, to get a patch to a game.

Well, one solution that I've seen other players mention is to release a patch as free DLC for consoles.  That way they could fix more stuff at once.

[Kileyan]

Blastback wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

I love you guys Bioware, but I have to admit the response to bugs has changed dramatically since you went multiplatform. It is obvious no bug will ever be fixed unless it is pushed with a DLC or expansion. More often, bugs are just considered non game breaking and not worth the dollar to fix.

I miss the days, when post release, I could visit the NWN's forums 20 hours later, and find several devs giving us fixes asap. Hell they even posted for wishlists of quality of life fixes, that is unheard of today. To think dev's would add to a game, not just fix bugs.

I know it really isn't laziness on your parts, it is console cert procedures, and the inability to give PC's special favoritism and the PR backlashes that would follow.

With that in mind, player made mods usually fix the quality of life issues and bugs that aren't deemed worthy of fixes. I will be a little put off, if DA2 is released with no tools for players to fix the inevitable problems. I don't like waiting 3 months for a major DLC release, to get a patch to a game.

Well, one solution that I've seen other players mention is to release a patch as free DLC for consoles.  That way they could fix more stuff at once.

That seems obvious, but patches are always tied to money making releases. From that, I infer that any patch they push to consoles costs them big money, on top of their own in house dev time.. MS charges them for everytime they show up to attempt to get their content push past the Microsoft QA testers. Bioware doesn't want to go through all that, and pay for the priveledge, unless it is coinciding with a cashing making DLC or expansion. At least that is how I figure it, not really sure.

Modifié par Kileyan, 10 septembre 2010 - 02:31 .

[Blastback]

Kileyan wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

I love you guys Bioware, but I have to admit the response to bugs has changed dramatically since you went multiplatform. It is obvious no bug will ever be fixed unless it is pushed with a DLC or expansion. More often, bugs are just considered non game breaking and not worth the dollar to fix.

I miss the days, when post release, I could visit the NWN's forums 20 hours later, and find several devs giving us fixes asap. Hell they even posted for wishlists of quality of life fixes, that is unheard of today. To think dev's would add to a game, not just fix bugs.

I know it really isn't laziness on your parts, it is console cert procedures, and the inability to give PC's special favoritism and the PR backlashes that would follow.

With that in mind, player made mods usually fix the quality of life issues and bugs that aren't deemed worthy of fixes. I will be a little put off, if DA2 is released with no tools for players to fix the inevitable problems. I don't like waiting 3 months for a major DLC release, to get a patch to a game.

Well, one solution that I've seen other players mention is to release a patch as free DLC for consoles.  That way they could fix more stuff at once.

That seems obvious, but patches are always tied to money making releases. From that, I infer that any patch they push to consoles costs them big money, on top of their own in house dev time.. MS charges them for everytime they show up to attempt to get their content push past the Microsoft QA testers. Bioware doesn't want to go through all that, and pay for the priveledge, unless it is coinciding with a cashing making DLC or expansion. At least that is how I figure it, not really sure.

No offence, but I reeeaaaally hope you don't know what your talking about.

[Kileyan]

Blastback wrote...

No offence, but I reeeaaaally hope you don't know what your talking about.

Heh, no offense taken. I'm just guessing from Biowares own dev talk about the hell they go through for console certification. They can't just push a couple fixes here and there like the old days. They have to save it all up for one big push.....which is usually a cash making DLC.

I'm only guessing that the reason they don't peicemeal fix the PC game is favoritism complaints and consoles asking why they waiting a year for a fix, when the PC was fixed in 4 days by a dev working on his laptop on the train to work.

[Blastback]

Kileyan wrote...

Blastback wrote...

No offence, but I reeeaaaally hope you don't know what your talking about.

Heh, no offense taken. I'm just guessing from Biowares own dev talk about the hell they go through for console certification. They can't just push a couple fixes here and there like the old days. They have to save it all up for one big push.....which is usually a cash making DLC.

I'm only guessing that the reason they don't peicemeal fix the PC game is favoritism complaints and consoles asking why they waiting a year for a fix, when the PC was fixed in 4 days by a dev working on his laptop on the train to work.

Currently being a console gamer, I can understand the sentiment. 

[Marionetten]

MonkeyChief117 wrote...

-ME has famous voice actors (Battlestar Galactica cast, Seth Green) while i did't recognize anyone in DA.

Kate Mulgrew? Claudia Black? Steve Valentine? Simon Templeman? Steve Blum? 

... Tim Curry? Come on. Who the **** does not know of Tim Curry?

Modifié par Marionetten, 10 septembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[Kileyan]

Also Bioware has created a monster of their own making. There was a time, when they'd patch a game, and tell everyone your old saved games were void. In those days, people would just shrug, start over, and be happy.



Today, they are invested in their friggin character carrying over for 5 years. Hell they are invested in their character, even if that character isn't even playable in the next game.



It must be hell to patch up a game, change things, yet still keep all these save games compatible for half a decade in some cases. In the old days, they'd just say delete that old game, start over.........we fixed that dual wielding bug!

[FieryDove]

Kileyan wrote...

I love you guys Bioware, but I have to admit the response to bugs has changed dramatically since you went multiplatform. It is obvious no bug will ever be fixed unless it is pushed with a DLC or expansion. More often, bugs are just considered non game breaking and not worth the dollar to fix.

I miss the days, when post release, I could visit the NWN's forums 20 hours later, and find several devs giving us fixes asap. Hell they even posted for wishlists of quality of life fixes, that is unheard of today. To think dev's would add to a game, not just fix bugs.

I know it really isn't laziness on your parts, it is console cert procedures, and the inability to give PC's special favoritism and the PR backlashes that would follow.

With that in mind, player made mods usually fix the quality of life issues and bugs that aren't deemed worthy of fixes. I will be a little put off, if DA2 is released with no tools for players to fix the inevitable problems. I don't like waiting 3 months for a major DLC release, to get a patch to a game.

I agree 100%.

And for those console folks that don't know, MS/Sony are not the generous type, every update costs the developer/publisher money patch/dlc/whatever. Plus there is or at least used to be a tiny amount of updates allowed per title. Meaning...bugs? Too bad for the most part.

At this point da2 isn't something I'm keen on buying. I'd like to buy and play the rest of the dlc's for dao but need a patch for a patch for a patch. Ever since 1.03 it's all been downhill. I might as well burned $40 as in the current state awakening is unusable...No matter what the developers consider game-breaking bugs or not. If I can't play it its gamebreaking. (To me)

Bleh...I said months ago I wouldn't post here anymore but since I had to post about a bug that apparently surprised a dev that was supposed to be fixed in 1.04 wasn't ...well here I am.

Label me a troll and whiner again, I really am passed the point of caring anymore.

[The Tizminator]

DA2 being rushed..... Maybe.

DA2 Bugs.............. Most probably.



Doesn't bother me too much, as the main DA:O game was pretty much bug free for me. Just a few minor issues that didn't ruin one of the best games I've played on the Xbox 360.

On the other hand, some of the DLC was just a bug-ridden farce. Awakening could've been great, but lets be honest, it's almost become cliche to say it felt rushed.



However, what has been bothering me of late, after browsing several of the forums, is that some of the Bioware staff seem to enjoy leaving sarcastic & rude replies to CUSTOMERS with GENUINE concerns about the games & DLC.



While I believe that Bioware have every right to defend their products, we also have the same right to voice our concerns & issues with said products.

I know there are many trolls who just post nonsense & they deserve to be put in their place. However, I have read a few posts lately, where someone has voiced a legitimate concern only to be shot down in flames by someone with the "Bioware" picture under their name.

What separates this forum from the others, is that about 99.9% of the people on here have actually played the games through and will only post if they have a legitimate issue with something. I know it may sometimes come in the form of a rant, but this is usually out of frustration due to the many documented bugs associated with Dragon Age. With so many of these bugs & glitches appearing & not being completely fixed, is it wrong for people to assume that Bioware appear to be rushing things ?



So, to put someone down with a cheap insult because they have an issue with a game almost seems like arrogance.



While I do think it's great that the Bioware staff participate in the forums to address certain issues, I do find it a little infuriating, at times, to see them mock people who are having problems with a game or DLC.

If I did it in my line of work, I'd be out of a job. Simple.



Perhaps there should be a "Dragon Age - RANT" section on the forum. It might save people (like me) from doing it in here !!!

[Lord_Valandil]

Edit. After all, I have to agree with the poster below me.

Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 10 septembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[Kileyan]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

The Tizminator wrote...

DA2 being rushed..... Maybe.
DA2 Bugs.............. Most probably.

Doesn't bother me too much, as the main DA:O game was pretty much bug free for me. Just a few minor issues that didn't ruin one of the best games I've played on the Xbox 360.
On the other hand, some of the DLC was just a bug-ridden farce. Awakening could've been great, but lets be honest, it's almost become cliche to say it felt rushed.

However, what has been bothering me of late, after browsing several of the forums, is that some of the Bioware staff seem to enjoy leaving sarcastic & rude replies to CUSTOMERS with GENUINE concerns about the games & DLC.

While I believe that Bioware have every right to defend their products, we also have the same right to voice our concerns & issues with said products.
I know there are many trolls who just post nonsense & they deserve to be put in their place. However, I have read a few posts lately, where someone has voiced a legitimate concern only to be shot down in flames by someone with the "Bioware" picture under their name.
What separates this forum from the others, is that about 99.9% of the people on here have actually played the games through and will only post if they have a legitimate issue with something. I know it may sometimes come in the form of a rant, but this is usually out of frustration due to the many documented bugs associated with Dragon Age. With so many of these bugs & glitches appearing & not being completely fixed, is it wrong for people to assume that Bioware appear to be rushing things ?

So, to put someone down with a cheap insult because they have an issue with a game almost seems like arrogance.

While I do think it's great that the Bioware staff participate in the forums to address certain issues, I do find it a little infuriating, at times, to see them mock people who are having problems with a game or DLC.
If I did it in my line of work, I'd be out of a job. Simple.

Perhaps there should be a "Dragon Age - RANT" section on the forum. It might save people (like me) from doing it in here !!!

Indeed. And when they don't actually shot down people, they just ignore them.
I love Bioware games, Dragon Age: Origins is one of my favorite games of all time, and I really like this community, but certainly, I have to agree with you.
I do not seek to complain or whine, but it gets in my nerves to be ignored or being told that "There's no solution cuz it costs time and money". While I understand that it isn't free, and it isn't something that can be done in a minute, as costumers, we want a good product. Free of annoying bugs. The top has been reached with Witch Hunt, I guess, but one can still aim higher.

I like the fact that the Bioware staff is willing to talk candidly with fans. They aren't rude or condescending, they talk to forum posters like they are people. The only time they talk down to people is when they remind a forum poster that they are being an internet jerk, and hint that they treat forum conversations, like they were talking face to face with real people.

The alternative is Bioware shutting up completely and only talking to us via carefully parsed releases that go through commitees and marketing approval. I'd rather not see this happen.

[LucianTansey]

Stanley Woo wrote...

LucianTansey wrote...
Actually I meant "EA's" not "Bioware's", so I apologise Mr Woo.

And yes your right, I dont know about the internal business decisions. But were the bugs a business decision?

People here keep talking about a publisher "rushing out" a game despite a developer's wishes, so if something like that happened, then yes, that would be considered a business decision. not saying that's what happened here, just that there are any number of reasons you will find bugs in a released game. At some point, a developer has to drop his tools because some greater force--usually related to time or money--said "TIME!"

I do see your point on this, and I cant imagine how frustrating it for you guys to be told to 'down tools' at any set point out of your control. And I imagine its even more frustrating when people like me make assumptions without being armed with the facts.
I recon the only solution would be to give you guys, as programmers, more control over time constraints. Potentially and realistically I doubt they'd do that (as you said, "time and money"), but we  can hope!

[FedericoV]

Saibh wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

In my experience, DA:O for PC was a polished game that worked mostly flawlessly (considering its lenght and scope). Most bugs people talked about at the times were small things that many player would not even notice... if not for the Paragon of her kind Bug.

On the other hand, DA:A felt rushed and not polished at release. First time for Bioware. That does not make a trend off course: but Bioware have made a reputation about the level of polish in its game while DA:A felt like an Obsidian game... I mean, a fun game, with great ideas and so on, that lacked the level of polish of DA:O or ME2. Maybe because of time and resources: I understand everything, but still I payed DA:A some good euros and I expected more.

So, considering DA2's short dev cycle, I understand some of the worries here. I only ask Bioware to do the best and if the dev time it's not enough, I ask them to be honest with the fans and patch the game as soon as possible after release.

There are bugs, and then there are bugs. Okay kinds of story bugs are like Conrad always thinking Shepard took the Renegade route. Is it annoying? Yes. But it's a side-quest for a minor character and understandable.

However, all of the products the DA team has been releasing have been absolutely rife with bugs. I mean, seriously, did they never play a game with Anora as sole queen, or did they not care? What about Witch Hunt--the entire DLC revolved around the meeting with Morrigan, and, for the majority of players, it was bugged all to hell. They're not perfect gods, this is true, but these are gigantic, unmistakable bugs that are directly in the main plot and are unavoidable, have not been fixed, and don't look to have one, save perhaps Witch Hunt.

I generally fall squarely in the BioWare apologist arena, but this is something I have a hard time justifying.

I've not played Witch Hunt so I cannot comment. I hate bugs in DLC too, since they are so short, there is no justification for bugs (even small ones). What I was saying is that DA:O is one of the best polished RPG I've played, considering even its scope and lenght. While, DA:A felt not polished and really rushed in most aspects of the game. If time and resources do not allow Bioware to make a quality game, they should wait or do not publish the product at all, since they ask us good money for their game. Or at least come here and say: sorry, we will patch it asap. I still wonder if DA:A "naked in dungeon" bug was fixed.

Modifié par FedericoV, 10 septembre 2010 - 11:42 .

[Uzzy]

I've a feeling that the post-game support for Dragon Age rather suffered due to DA:2 'coming together' so quickly. With it's release date coming rather quickly, I imagine that they needed everyone working full time on DA2, leaving very few people working on the DLC and patches (see, for instance, the number of reused areas in the DLC).



So really, the post game support for DA2 depends on how quickly DA3 'comes together'.

[Tatinger]

FedericoV wrote...

I've not played Witch Hunt so I cannot comment. I hate bugs in DLC too, since they are so short, there is no justification for bugs (even small ones). What I was saying is that DA:O is one of the best polished RPG I've played, considering even its scope and lenght. While, DA:A felt not polished and really rushed in most aspects of the game. If time and resources do not allow Bioware to make a quality game, they should wait or do not publish the product at all, since they ask us good money for their game. Or at least come here and say: sorry, we will patch it asap. I still wonder if DA:A "naked in dungeon" bug was fixed.

Or, if they don't have the time, pass it off to somebody like Qwinn who has said that he would be willing to do a patch job, if properly motivated to do so.  The fact that consumers have to find and correct all the in-game bugged content is just inexcusable. 

[Vegielamb]

Wishpig wrote...

I get it. You cannot avoid bugs, especially with PC games (with systems you have pretty consitent tech to test... not so with PCs which range extremely).

Actually, Steam has been monitoring hardware for its user base and guess what they've found? What the industry considers average hardware is in fact average for most users. So it's not mysterious what sort hardware compatibility you need to develop bug free games (system setups are another issue altogether and probably more of an issue).

Modifié par Vegielamb, 10 septembre 2010 - 01:56 .

[Hellcat Maggie]

My problem with buggy game releases in general, and I am sure I am the minority, is that it seems unethical to rely on post release patches to fix your game.



I am speaking from the perspective of someone that grew up in an area where we could not get high speed internet. And while that percentage of the population has decreased significantly there are still a number of areas ( at least in Canada) where high speed is not available and therefore those gamers are stuck with whatever product they purchase off the shelves and are not subject to any patches thereafter.



Of course I realize this is a very small percentage of gamers, However being one of them for almost ten years has soured me to the growing trend of releasing buggy games. I hope that Bioware is able to Iron out their game and polish prior to release. There is nothing more satisfying than an overly polished game.



Things like bowstrings, cloaks and hair with physics are not a waste of resources as was stated in the DA: O release. I would rather wait another year for them to create a bug free game with polished features and carefully designed aesthetic choices such as these.

[AlanC9]

Hellcat Maggie wrote...
I am speaking from the perspective of someone that grew up in an area where we could not get high speed internet. And while that percentage of the population has decreased significantly there are still a number of areas ( at least in Canada) where high speed is not available and therefore those gamers are stuck with whatever product they purchase off the shelves and are not subject to any patches thereafter.

On 56K dialup I was able to patch DAO and download the DLCs. Unless those folks have prohibitive phone rates as well as no high-speed, they can do this too. How badly are they screwed?

Things like bowstrings, cloaks and hair with physics are not a waste of resources as was stated in the DA: O release. I would rather wait another year for them to create a bug free game with polished features and carefully designed aesthetic choices such as these.

I wouldn't. Honestly, from where I sit Bio's already spending too much time on that sort of thing.

[ErichHartmann]

I can't imagine any developer spending time on hair physics. Maybe a few years from now. Technology is moving too fast for them to ever catch up.

[FieryDove]

FedericoV wrote...

 I still wonder if DA:A "naked in dungeon" bug was fixed.

No...In fact that was the bug that made me come back and post about. I got the impression the Dev was surprised 1.04 didn't fix everything. sigh

http://social.biowar...-3206487-1.html