417 réponses à ce sujet

[Blastback]

Ooooookay....

[SirGladiator]

I think for all the speculation as to why modders are better bug-fixers than the 'professionals', maybe its because they care more, maybe its because they're less burdened by stupid regulations, whatever it is, the bottom line is they really get the job done right. Therefore it seems to me a wise policy to give at least some of them, maybe a half dozen to a dozen or so, an early copy of the game (after the regular bug-fixers have done their work, of course), and the toolkit they want so badly, and basicly tell them 'fix this for us', and then just sit back and see what they come up with. Its really amazing the kind of stuff those guys can do, just the stuff they fixed that was related to Morrigan alone, in the main game, made a world of difference. I can't even count the total number of things those guys have fixed, its just unreal. So even if they aren't 'really' more talented than the so-called professional bug-fixers (although I'd have to say they certainly seem to be) for whatever reason they certainly do a much better job, so I'd say they should definitely be utilized as a major resource for making sure that DA2 is as bug-free as possible.

[MadLaughter]

Just because people make criticisms from an armchair doesn't mean they are wrong. THAT's a generalization. A hypocritical one, considering you're accusing us of making generalizations.



There are a few inescapable truths:

-DAO and DAO:A were and are too buggy with no fix in sight.

-The development cycle for DA2 is incredibly short, compared to what Bioware seems to be used to and compared to most big budget games.

-Short development cycles are positively correlated with worse games.

-Development cycles are determined in most cases by the publisher.

[AlanC9]

MadLaughter wrote...

There are a few inescapable truths:
-DAO and DAO:A were and are too buggy with no fix in sight.

This can't be any kind of truth, inescapable or otherwise. "Too buggy" is a subjective value judgment.

-The development cycle for DA2 is incredibly short, compared to what Bioware seems to be used to and compared to most big budget games.
-Short development cycles are positively correlated with worse games.  

Could you put up some data to support these?

[JigPig]

Could you put up some data to support these?

I wouldn't hold my breath if I was you.

[ErichHartmann]

MadLaughter wrote...
-Short development cycles are positively correlated with worse games.

Duke Nukem Forever should be the greatest game ever with a 13 year development cycle.  Bring on 2011! 

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 09 septembre 2010 - 04:35 .

[Altima Darkspells]

And, really, the people who suffer the most from bugs are the console people, since the consoles--and I think the Xbox 360 specifically--are extremely finicky about patching games.  So, more often than not, what they get out of the box is what they're stuck with.

MadLaughter wrote...

Just because people make criticisms from an armchair doesn't mean they are wrong. THAT's a generalization. A hypocritical one, considering you're accusing us of making generalizations.

There are a few inescapable truths:
-DAO and DAO:A were and are too buggy with no fix in sight.
-The development cycle for DA2 is incredibly short, compared to what Bioware seems to be used to and compared to most big budget games.
-Short development cycles are positively correlated with worse games.
-Development cycles are determined in most cases by the publisher.

I just hope EA isn't falling into their old routine of releasing (or leeching, in the case of DA) a great game then pumping out a slew of absolutely crap sequels that eventually sinks the studio.

[JigPig]

Altima Darkspells wrote...

And, really, the people who suffer the most from bugs are the console people, since the consoles--and I think the Xbox 360 specifically--are extremely finicky about patching games.  So, more often than not, what they get out of the box is what they're stuck with.

Nope, generally PC games suffer a vast majority more bugs than their console counterparts simply because of the millions upon millions of combinations of hardware, drivers, operating systems, patch versions.

Modifié par JigPig, 09 septembre 2010 - 04:44 .

[TheMadCat]

MadLaughter wrote...

Just because people make criticisms from an armchair doesn't mean they are wrong. THAT's a generalization. A hypocritical one, considering you're accusing us of making generalizations.

Eh, more often then not though they are wrong, especially if you have zero experience in the respective field. Nothing wrong with speculating, I mean I'm guilty as hell of that. So long as it's based on reasonable facts then it's a legit thought to throw out. If Mr. Woo is worried about there being a case of saying it over and over until it eventually seems true all they have to do is come on and so you're wrong. Hell that would actually be good for the boards, deflate some of the egos around here such as mine.

There are a few inescapable truths:
-DAO and DAO:A were and are too buggy with no fix in sight.

1.03 was a mess and haven't played a game of Origins since, never bought Awakening or any DLC because of it. From a technical standpoint Origins and Awakening do seem to be in shoddy shape which is a mind blower given the fact they had an extra 6 months or do to polish it up. But keep in mind Origins was in development for 6 years or so so that kind of negates the "rushed" reasoning.

-The development cycle for DA2 is incredibly short, compared to what Bioware seems to be used to and compared to most big budget games.

Honestly that's impossible to claim, none of us can pinpoint exactly when development started for DA2. Could have been after Awakening was launched, along side Awakening, hell could have been started before Origins was even launched. In this day and age publishers looking to push a franchise hard don't wait around to see if the inital product is an actual success. Time is money, and the longer they take to give the green light the longer that franchise sits on the wayside and that equals less dollars in the long run. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if there was already a development team getting DA2 started before Origins was actually out. 

-Short development cycles are positively correlated with worse games.

Popular myth that really has no basis for truth, to many variable involved to really connect the dots here. Keep in mind BioWare is a large studio with several hundred employees backed by a publisher with nearly $6 billion is assessts. They have the ability to get whatever manpower is needed to get this product in a quality state within a short amount of time.

-Development cycles are determined in most cases by the publisher.

All the time actually in cases where the publisher owns the studio in question, as is the instance here. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 09 septembre 2010 - 05:00 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Altima Darkspells wrote...

I just hope EA isn't falling into their old routine of releasing (or leeching, in the case of DA) a great game then pumping out a slew of absolutely crap sequels that eventually sinks the studio.

What studios are you referring to?

The only ones I can connect with that are the fall of Westwood, Origin, Looking Glass, and Bullfrog  However none of that was the cause of the downfall for each studio.  Origin had the disasterous Ultima 9 which wasn't pumped out quickly and Westwood had the failure of their MMO Earth and Beyond plus the poor timing of Renegade.  Looking Glass and Bullfrog don't fit this either.

Hell, DICE hasn't gone under and they to an extent do fit a "slew of sequels".  None for which I would say would be crap.

[Onyx Jaguar]

JigPig wrote...

Altima Darkspells wrote...

And, really, the people who suffer the most from bugs are the console people, since the consoles--and I think the Xbox 360 specifically--are extremely finicky about patching games.  So, more often than not, what they get out of the box is what they're stuck with.

Nope, generally PC games suffer a vast majority more bugs than their console counterparts simply because of the millions upon millions of combinations of hardware, drivers, operating systems, patch versions.

Plus historically speaking Console Developers would rarely release a game that would be "buggy" as back in the day it wouldn't pass Sony or Nintendo's approval system.  Microsoft is a bit worse about this however with the advent of the Xbox and to an extent the 360.  Now that you can patch games developers are getting lazier at release, which is BS.  

[JigPig]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

JigPig wrote...

Altima Darkspells wrote...

And, really, the people who suffer the most from bugs are the console people, since the consoles--and I think the Xbox 360 specifically--are extremely finicky about patching games.  So, more often than not, what they get out of the box is what they're stuck with.

Nope, generally PC games suffer a vast majority more bugs than their console counterparts simply because of the millions upon millions of combinations of hardware, drivers, operating systems, patch versions.

Plus historically speaking Console Developers would rarely release a game that would be "buggy" as back in the day it wouldn't pass Sony or Nintendo's approval system.  Microsoft is a bit worse about this however with the advent of the Xbox and to an extent the 360.  Now that you can patch games developers are getting lazier at release, which is BS.  

Still, some patches are better than none.

Recently developers have began completely dropping support on launch, no patches, no tech support. How's that for the 21st century.

[Clover Rider]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

JigPig wrote...

Altima Darkspells wrote...

And, really, the people who suffer the most from bugs are the console people, since the consoles--and I think the Xbox 360 specifically--are extremely finicky about patching games.  So, more often than not, what they get out of the box is what they're stuck with.

Nope, generally PC games suffer a vast majority more bugs than their console counterparts simply because of the millions upon millions of combinations of hardware, drivers, operating systems, patch versions.

Plus historically speaking Console Developers would rarely release a game that would be "buggy" as back in the day it wouldn't pass Sony or Nintendo's approval system.  Microsoft is a bit worse about this however with the advent of the Xbox and to an extent the 360.  Now that you can patch games developers are getting lazier at release, which is BS.  

Boy you have to try hard to find bugs in Mario games .

[ashwind]

Bugs... nothing spoils the game more than bugs. Bioware must do something about it instead of rushing to meet some silly deadline set by money hungry business people (EA?) otherwise this may prove to be the downfall of Bioware games.



Crashes during boss fights, scripts not triggering, broken quest, etc etc. When I played Awakening and encounter that stupid bug that caused me all my equipment; well my best equipments... ARRRR the frustration. I am forced to take time off to read the Wiki for solution (found out about other *bugs* that I should be aware off) and then reload from a much earlier save to "bypass/fix" those bugs.



Bioware would lose much respect IF DA2 comes with all those bugs in DA1. It doesnt matter how much effort you put into the game (-personal feeling- not much since Origins), the bugs will overshadow all your best efforts and those who suffer will remember them better than goodies; such is human nature.

[NKKKK]

Stanley, you have to agree that the DA bugs while not "game-breaking" were quite horrible. Witch Hunt being the latest example.



We are simply worried that you're gonna repeat the same mistake again.

[Faz432]

Put it this way, if they don't release the updated toolset I'm not sure if I'll get this game.



.....or at least not for a few months after release.

Modifié par Faz432, 09 septembre 2010 - 09:10 .

[Lord Gremlin]

Well, I have PS3 version and I can't say there are gamebreaking bugs. I never had any huge bugs people are reporting - like the ones with wrong king/queen.



However game is full of minor annoying bugs, like Jowan's quest, Shale never appearing on coronation, Vellana's quest never triggering in Awakening. Dexterity bug also annoying, and crossbows... BTW crossbows are my favorite weapon in such games, so that was depressing.

Well, also PS3 version is by far not on par with other PS3 games. In 2007 games of such quality have been considered bad ports. I know that 360 version is even worse, sadly.

I am concerned with short development time of DA2, but I've seen PS3 demo - it runs better than DAO on PS3.



In a way I'm glad that DA2 will come out soon, I'm not getting any younger after all.

[LucianTansey]

Stanley Woo wrote...

LucianTansey wrote...

"they have no choice but to rush, EA is keeping bioware on a tight leash"

Thats Bioware's fault, not ours, why should the gameplay for the gamer suffer as a result? If it wasnt for us there would be no Grey Wardens!

Actually, you've got it a little backwards. If it wasn't for us, there'd be no Grey Wardens. And I'd think twice about spouting off on what you think you know about the internal business decisions of companies you're not a part of. Speculation is all well and good, but far too many people think they know how businesses work when they've only been on the consumer side of things.

Actually I meant "EA's" not "Bioware's", so I apologise Mr Woo.

And yes your right, I dont know about the internal business decisions. But were the bugs a business decision?

[21121313]

I didn't know about many of the bugs until i came here to be honest, and they really never did distract from my enjoyment of the game.

I only have had one freeze(in awakening) the whole time i have played it on my PS3.

When it starts to look laggy, i just delete and re-install all the data, and boom!...issues fixed. Time consuming since i don't have a mega fast internet connection anymore, but worth the time to make the game run better.

The more advanced gaming gets, the more we are going to have to expect the possibility of imperfections due to the overwhelming amount of data being dealt with.

Of, and of course the fact that some people will never be happy no matter what.....

[LucianTansey]

21121313 wrote...



Of, and of course the fact that some people will never be happy no matter what.....

Yeah that too!

[ankuu]

I personally didn't notice any bugs in DAO or Awakening, and trust me i played 5 times Origins and 3 times Awakening. The game was moving really good (including the transition to other places) and i had the graphics set on high. And my computer is far from being a rocket (Intel Core 2 Duo, Nvidia GT 9600 and only 2 GB of ram).



I know some people had problems but i didn't really...as for Witch Hunt i was only of the "lucky" bugged persons. That really ruined the end of my game her yelling i betrayed her but i trust Bioware will repair that. And i trust they will release another great game.

[Danjaru]

Just look at some of the DLC's and Awakening, and this game coming out this soon. There will be bugs, plenty of them. It will be immersion breaking but I doubt that they'll be game breaking. Worst case, buy it a month later when it's patched up nicely.

[Lord Gremlin]

Danjaru wrote...

Just look at some of the DLC's and Awakening, and this game coming out this soon. There will be bugs, plenty of them. It will be immersion breaking but I doubt that they'll be game breaking. Worst case, buy it a month later when it's patched up nicely.

Too bad Dragon Age is crack in game form, you just need more and can't wait...

[Blastback]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Danjaru wrote...

Just look at some of the DLC's and Awakening, and this game coming out this soon. There will be bugs, plenty of them. It will be immersion breaking but I doubt that they'll be game breaking. Worst case, buy it a month later when it's patched up nicely.

Too bad Dragon Age is crack in game form, you just need more and can't wait...

Pretty much, I needs mah fix!  Gimme a hit of that enchantment!

[Stanley Woo]

SirGladiator wrote...
I think for all the speculation as to why modders are better bug-fixers than the 'professionals', maybe its because they care more, maybe its because they're less burdened by stupid regulations, whatever it is, the bottom line is they really get the job done right. Therefore it seems to me a wise policy to give at least some of them, maybe a half dozen to a dozen or so, an early copy of the game (after the regular bug-fixers have done their work, of course), and the toolkit they want so badly, and basicly tell them 'fix this for us', and then just sit back and see what they come up with.

I don't think that's a wise policy at all. just because some modders enjoy playing with the toolset after a game's release does not mean they would all enjoy being told to fix a game pre-release. Your science is bad here. As for the toolkit, unless it is intended for release tot he general public, it remains proprietary material, and companies are not in the habit of just giving away proprietary material in the hopes of maybe some intrepid modders would like to work as bug testers and technical designers for free.

Its really amazing the kind of stuff those guys can do, just the stuff they fixed that was related to Morrigan alone, in the main game, made a world of difference. I can't even count the total number of things those guys have fixed, its just unreal. So even if they aren't 'really' more talented than the so-called professional bug-fixers (although I'd have to say they certainly seem to be) for whatever reason they certainly do a much better job, so I'd say they should definitely be utilized as a major resource for making sure that DA2 is as bug-free as possible.

You didn't actually read my explanation of why modders might be able to fix game bugs faster or "better" than a game company, did you?