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[Shadow_broker]

 Elves were incredibly Cliche in DAO particularly the dalish, The only one who was honestly unpredictable was zevran, I want to be invested in their struggles and feel like insights from another race intresting rather than the Typical.

I use The Elf Ears as an Analog for their Cliche personality, Why do Elves always have pointy ears?
Keep Dalish out
Keep Velanna out
Keep Elven Archer squadmate out
Keep Elf who Rose up from the slums despite racial disadvantages OUT
All Cliches all pointy ears

Let's see some of these Rather
Bring Small ELf Warrior WITH Massive armor in!
bring old unatractive elf who is not wise or particularly insightful in!
Bring a squadmate who dosen't mention his/her elven heritage in every chat IN!

So how bout it Bioware, With hawke in the free marches can we write away from those Pointy eared elfs and into a new age of Elfs that care about something more than their Bow's,nature, and Long male Hair?

[Saibh]

It's a quality associated with the archetype, similar to dwarves being short.

Seriously, if they didn't have pointy ears they'd be short humans.

Also.

I have never once seen an elf have to "rise up from the slums despite racial disadvantages" in any other medium but DAO. The City Elves themselves were a massive subversion of the character archetypes.

I wouldn't say many of the elves came across as gentle tree-huggers--they were a species, with a history and a cultural identity, and yeah, that reflects back on their personality, but they didn't fall under the same tired stereotypes.

Modifié par Saibh, 09 septembre 2010 - 03:16 .

[Lord_Valandil]

Why do Dwarves always have beards?
Why do Wizards always use staffs?
Why do the Archdemon wants to destroy the world?

Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 09 septembre 2010 - 03:17 .

[Shadow_broker]

Saibh wrote...

It's a quality associated with the archetype, similar to dwarves being short.

Seriously, if they didn't have pointy ears they'd be short humans.

Also.

I have never once seen an elf have to "rise up from the slums despite racial disadvantages" in any other medium but DAO. The City Elves themselves were a massive subversion of the character archetypes.

I wouldn't say many of the elves came across as gentle tree-huggers--they were a species, with a history and a cultural identity, and yeah, that reflects back on their personality, but they didn't fall under the same tired stereotypes.

They Very much did, The Magic forest, The specialty in bows, and the non stop complaning was more sterotype than i could handle. Dwarves had Political corruption and ect....Made them unique from other dwarves in fantasy and kept me caring about their problems.

[Riona45]

The Dalish elves were in a magic forest all right...one they weren't very "in touch" with. If you tell Keeper Zathrian that you met the talking, poetry-spouting tree, he mentions that they've never seen that tree, only demonically possessed ones that try to kill people.

Modifié par Riona45, 09 septembre 2010 - 03:22 .

[Saibh]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Saibh wrote...

It's a quality associated with the archetype, similar to dwarves being short.

Seriously, if they didn't have pointy ears they'd be short humans.

Also.

I have never once seen an elf have to "rise up from the slums despite racial disadvantages" in any other medium but DAO. The City Elves themselves were a massive subversion of the character archetypes.

I wouldn't say many of the elves came across as gentle tree-huggers--they were a species, with a history and a cultural identity, and yeah, that reflects back on their personality, but they didn't fall under the same tired stereotypes.

They Very much did, The Magic forest, The specialty in bows, and the non stop complaning was more sterotype than i could handle. Dwarves had Political corruption and ect....Made them unique from other dwarves in fantasy and kept me caring about their problems.

These are archetypes associated with the race. The fact that they live in forests does not make them better people--take Zathrian, or that one bitter storyteller, who's nasty to everyone he meets, or Velanna, or the Tevinter elf who sells out her people, or any number of characters. Being an elf doesn't immediately loop them all into one personality.

Also, you had one elven companion, and he was a dual-wielder. I believe the Orzammar army all used axes, didn't they? They are archers because it's an archetype associated with them. The elves themselves weren't terribly fleshed out, but the City Elves were unique and unique with their problem.

[Shadow_broker]

Riona45 wrote...

The Dalish elves were in a magic forest all right...one they weren't very "in touch" with. If you tell Keeper Zathrian that you met the talking, poetry-spouting tree, he mentions that they've never seen that tree, only demonically possessed ones that try to kill people.

The Trees transforming into Humanoid shaped monsters didn't seem familiar to you?
Cliche is hard to avoid in fantasy but that was just a "Oh comeon" moment

[Yionel]

Shadow_broker wrote...

They Very much did, The Magic forest, The specialty in bows, and the non stop complaning was more sterotype than i could handle. Dwarves had Political corruption and ect....Made them unique from other dwarves in fantasy and kept me caring about their problems.

Depends on wich lore you base your prejudice..personally elves in DA were totally diffrent from the elves im used to since my archetype of an elf are the warhammer fantasy ones.....also i didint like the who politics corrupted dwarfs...they just acted like short humans really instead of stout and honor bound..again warhammer dwarfs is how i see dwarfs and most fantasy races.

[Riona45]

Saibh wrote...
The fact that they live in forests does not make them better people--take Zathrian, or that one bitter storyteller, who's nasty to everyone he meets...

Wow, is he a jerk even to Dalish PCs?

[Collider]

Because that's one of the things that sets elves apart

[Riona45]

Shadow_broker wrote...


The Trees transforming into Humanoid shaped monsters didn't seem familiar to you?
Cliche is hard to avoid in fantasy but that was just a "Oh comeon" moment

You either missed my point or you're "shifting the goalposts."

[lv12medic]

Well, I suppose Bioware could make Dwarves nature loving bow users, Humans into underground drunk miners, and elves can control the world and ignore everyone and everything until their lives depend on it.

[Saibh]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The Dalish elves were in a magic forest all right...one they weren't very "in touch" with. If you tell Keeper Zathrian that you met the talking, poetry-spouting tree, he mentions that they've never seen that tree, only demonically possessed ones that try to kill people.

The Trees transforming into Humanoid shaped monsters didn't seem familiar to you?
Cliche is hard to avoid in fantasy but that was just a "Oh comeon" moment

...Maybe you missed her point:

Zathrian is the oldest elf alive, and for being all "in touch" with nature, he's a blood mage that continuously endangers the lives of his people for his own selfish revenge--vengeance that isn't even on those who originally hurt him. For being "in touch" with nature, he doesn't even realize the Grand Oak exists or that it's a speaking, communing thing.

Honestly, if you dislike how DA uses archetypes to help weave their story, then go to a different game and different setting. They are using them to their advantage--quite well, I'll add.

[Shadow_broker]

Saibh wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Saibh wrote...

It's a quality associated with the archetype, similar to dwarves being short.

Seriously, if they didn't have pointy ears they'd be short humans.

Also.

I have never once seen an elf have to "rise up from the slums despite racial disadvantages" in any other medium but DAO. The City Elves themselves were a massive subversion of the character archetypes.

I wouldn't say many of the elves came across as gentle tree-huggers--they were a species, with a history and a cultural identity, and yeah, that reflects back on their personality, but they didn't fall under the same tired stereotypes.

They Very much did, The Magic forest, The specialty in bows, and the non stop complaning was more sterotype than i could handle. Dwarves had Political corruption and ect....Made them unique from other dwarves in fantasy and kept me caring about their problems.

These are archetypes associated with the race. The fact that they live in forests does not make them better people--take Zathrian, or that one bitter storyteller, who's nasty to everyone he meets, or Velanna, or the Tevinter elf who sells out her people, or any number of characters. Being an elf doesn't immediately loop them all into one personality.

Also, you had one elven companion, and he was a dual-wielder. I believe the Orzammar army all used axes, didn't they? They are archers because it's an archetype associated with them. The elves themselves weren't terribly fleshed out, but the City Elves were unique and unique with their problem.

Velanna was incredibly Clice, The worst of the bunch IMO
The Tevinter Mage was honsetly the only elf i can think of who didn't cry about being treated unfairly
and Didn't the Castless have the same problem as city elf of no rights?
Only diffrence is that castless got intresting by using crime to survive

[Giggles_Manically]

Because this man demands it from beyond the grave!

[Saibh]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Velanna was incredibly Clice, The worst of the bunch IMO
The Tevinter Mage was honsetly the only elf i can think of who didn't cry about being treated unfairly
and Didn't the Castless have the same problem as city elf of no rights?
Only diffrence is that castless got intresting by using crime to survive

A cliche of what? Elves that are continuously repressed by humans and become batsh*t serial killers? Yeah, I see those all the time.

Lanaya doesn't "cry out", Zevran doesn't "cry out", Iona, Erlina, or any number of elves. Some do, some don't.

If you want them to simply not mention that they're constantly repressed and unjustly treated as a person and as a culture, well, maybe you've never felt that yourself.

The casteless were a part of dwarven culture--they were the children of dwarves who were criminals. They weren't repressed in the way the elves were, as an entire culture. They were individuals being punished for their parents actions, repressed by their entire world. The surfacers are meaningless to them.

And they do complain, often. It just doesn't get them anywhere, except killed or beaten.

Modifié par Saibh, 09 septembre 2010 - 03:31 .

[lv12medic]

Riona45 wrote...

Saibh wrote...
The fact that they live in forests does not make them better people--take Zathrian, or that one bitter storyteller, who's nasty to everyone he meets...

Wow, is he a jerk even to Dalish PCs?

He's not so much a jerk to Dalish PC's, but he is a bit bitter that you are a grey warden which means you aren't a pure Dalish hoo-rah-rah patriot.

[Lord_Valandil]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Because this man demands it from beyond the grave!

Pretty much.
Tolkien has been the inspiration for many years.

[D.Kain]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Why do Dwarves always have beards?
Why do Wizards always use staffs?
Why do the Archdemon wants to destroy the world?

Some dwarves in DA didn't have a beard. 
Wizards don't always use staffs. ( I hate when they do. Love when they use magic gloves instead in other games )
Wheren't Archdemon's a tool of somebody, if I remember from speaking to the Architect?

[Saibh]

lv12medic wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Saibh wrote...
The fact that they live in forests does not make them better people--take Zathrian, or that one bitter storyteller, who's nasty to everyone he meets...

Wow, is he a jerk even to Dalish PCs?

He's not so much a jerk to Dalish PC's, but he is a bit bitter that you are a grey warden which means you aren't a pure Dalish hoo-rah-rah patriot.

No, he's an ass. "Oh, EXCUSE ME CHILD I didn't know that you had ANY RIGHT SPEAKING when we need and are asking for your help!"

He's just as much of a jerk to them, and acts bitter and holier-than-thou.

Modifié par Saibh, 09 septembre 2010 - 03:33 .

[Shadow_broker]

Saibh wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The Dalish elves were in a magic forest all right...one they weren't very "in touch" with. If you tell Keeper Zathrian that you met the talking, poetry-spouting tree, he mentions that they've never seen that tree, only demonically possessed ones that try to kill people.

The Trees transforming into Humanoid shaped monsters didn't seem familiar to you?
Cliche is hard to avoid in fantasy but that was just a "Oh comeon" moment

...Maybe you missed her point:

Zathrian is the oldest elf alive, and for being all "in touch" with nature, he's a blood mage that continuously endangers the lives of his people for his own selfish revenge--vengeance that isn't even on those who originally hurt him. For being "in touch" with nature, he doesn't even realize the Grand Oak exists or that it's a speaking, communing thing.

Honestly, if you dislike how DA uses archetypes to help weave their story, then go to a different game and different setting. They are using them to their advantage--quite well, I'll add.

Always Fun to hear "if your gonna call a game anything but perfect don't get it"
I critisize because i doubt anyone didn't feel the Cliches of the elf origins or the cliches upon recruiting the dalish.
They are not using the archetype "quite well" IMO, They used Dwarves and mages archetpyes great. Don't see why Elves got such a short end of the stick felt little to no creativity went into Each individual Elfs story beyond "I'm an elf and humans suck" with the excpetion of Zevran and the tevinter mage. Zathrian was very black and white, and didn't care for his subplot at all.

[andar91]

As stated by others, it's part of the archetype. Unless you had a very good reason for it, I wouldn't break with the image; if you did, why would you bother calling them elves?

[Lord_Valandil]

D.Kain wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Why do Dwarves always have beards?
Why do Wizards always use staffs?
Why do the Archdemon wants to destroy the world?

Some dwarves in DA didn't have a beard. 
Wizards don't always use staffs. ( I hate when they do. Love when they use magic gloves instead in other games )
Wheren't Archdemon's a tool of somebody, if I remember from speaking to the Architect?

I was just trying to point out that's kind of silly to ask why elves do have pointy ears. No offence intended, Shadow.

[Merci357]

Shadow_broker wrote...
I use The Elf Ears as an Analog for their Cliche personality, Why do Elves always have pointy ears?

The long and the short is, the pointy ears is about the only thing that differs between them and a rather slim human. That said, I'd apprechiate if elves (and just about any race, for that matter) would be as diverse as humans are, on an individual basis, and honestly, what is the common denominator between, let's say, Zevran, Ariane, Sketch and Velanna? Well, just the pointy ears. The are far fewer elves in the game, and it'll take more time until every possible trophe, cliche, stereotype is there.
Also, don't forget, people expect certain cliches to be there - you can (and should, imho) break with them every so often, but as a whole, I think the elves in DA are quite diverse so far.