211 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow_broker]

Saibh wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Velanna was incredibly Clice, The worst of the bunch IMO
The Tevinter Mage was honsetly the only elf i can think of who didn't cry about being treated unfairly
and Didn't the Castless have the same problem as city elf of no rights?
Only diffrence is that castless got intresting by using crime to survive

A cliche of what? Elves that are continuously repressed by humans and become batsh*t serial killers? Yeah, I see those all the time.

Lanaya doesn't "cry out", Zevran doesn't "cry out", Iona, Erlina, or any number of elves. Some do, some don't.

If you want them to simply not mention that they're constantly repressed and unjustly treated as a person and as a culture, well, maybe you've never felt that yourself.

The casteless were a part of dwarven culture--they were the children of dwarves who were criminals. They weren't repressed in the way the elves were, as an entire culture. They were individuals being punished for their parents actions, repressed by their entire world. The surfacers are meaningless to them.

And they do complain, often. It just doesn't get them anywhere, except killed or beaten.

City elves aren't a Elven Cliche, But a racial odds cliche and was the least intresting origin IMO, added no depth to elves as a race and still cared little to none for there problems.
I never complained about Zevran, I want more character to be unique like him and be thought of as more than an elf! He was an antivan Crow first that just happened to come from elven heritage.

[Saibh]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The Dalish elves were in a magic forest all right...one they weren't very "in touch" with. If you tell Keeper Zathrian that you met the talking, poetry-spouting tree, he mentions that they've never seen that tree, only demonically possessed ones that try to kill people.

The Trees transforming into Humanoid shaped monsters didn't seem familiar to you?
Cliche is hard to avoid in fantasy but that was just a "Oh comeon" moment

...Maybe you missed her point:

Zathrian is the oldest elf alive, and for being all "in touch" with nature, he's a blood mage that continuously endangers the lives of his people for his own selfish revenge--vengeance that isn't even on those who originally hurt him. For being "in touch" with nature, he doesn't even realize the Grand Oak exists or that it's a speaking, communing thing.

Honestly, if you dislike how DA uses archetypes to help weave their story, then go to a different game and different setting. They are using them to their advantage--quite well, I'll add.

Always Fun to hear "if your gonna call a game anything but perfect don't get it"

If you hate dialogue, why get this game?

If you hate character interactions, why get this game?

If you hate fantasy settings, why get this game?

If you hate fantasy archetypes, why get this game?

They are used. If you don't like it, and can't see that they're being used well and uniquely, well, stop playing.

[Shadow_broker]

andar91 wrote...

As stated by others, it's part of the archetype. Unless you had a very good reason for it, I wouldn't break with the image; if you did, why would you bother calling them elves?

Zevran "broke" the image, I saw him as more than a elf. I want to see more charaters that have problems that are unique to them as a person, not as a race.

[Riona45]

Saibh wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Velanna was incredibly Clice, The worst of the bunch IMO
The Tevinter Mage was honsetly the only elf i can think of who didn't cry about being treated unfairly
and Didn't the Castless have the same problem as city elf of no rights?
Only diffrence is that castless got intresting by using crime to survive

A cliche of what? Elves that are continuously repressed by humans and become batsh*t serial killers? Yeah, I see those all the time.

Lanaya doesn't "cry out", Zevran doesn't "cry out", Iona, Erlina, or any number of elves. Some do, some don't.

If you want them to simply not mention that they're constantly repressed and unjustly treated as a person and as a culture, well, maybe you've never felt that yourself.

I agree--it would be very jarring if the no elves you met expressed anger or resentment about their circumstances.  I would consider that to be bad writing.

[Riona45]

Saibh wrote...

lv12medic wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Saibh wrote...
The fact that they live in forests does not make them better people--take Zathrian, or that one bitter storyteller, who's nasty to everyone he meets...

Wow, is he a jerk even to Dalish PCs?

He's not so much a jerk to Dalish PC's, but he is a bit bitter that you are a grey warden which means you aren't a pure Dalish hoo-rah-rah patriot.

No, he's an ass. "Oh, EXCUSE ME CHILD I didn't know that you had ANY RIGHT SPEAKING when we need and are asking for your help!"

He's just as much of a jerk to them, and acts bitter and holier-than-thou.

Well, thank you both for enlightening me about that.

[thegreateski]

Does anyone find this thread completely silly? You could turn the Elves and Dwarfs into Humans (or vice versa) and the story would not change.

At all.

Just look at the Qunari, they represent the opposite of what I'm saying (large Humans turned into a different species).

Modifié par thegreateski, 09 septembre 2010 - 03:50 .

[Shadow_broker]

Saibh wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The Dalish elves were in a magic forest all right...one they weren't very "in touch" with. If you tell Keeper Zathrian that you met the talking, poetry-spouting tree, he mentions that they've never seen that tree, only demonically possessed ones that try to kill people.

The Trees transforming into Humanoid shaped monsters didn't seem familiar to you?
Cliche is hard to avoid in fantasy but that was just a "Oh comeon" moment

...Maybe you missed her point:

Zathrian is the oldest elf alive, and for being all "in touch" with nature, he's a blood mage that continuously endangers the lives of his people for his own selfish revenge--vengeance that isn't even on those who originally hurt him. For being "in touch" with nature, he doesn't even realize the Grand Oak exists or that it's a speaking, communing thing.

Honestly, if you dislike how DA uses archetypes to help weave their story, then go to a different game and different setting. They are using them to their advantage--quite well, I'll add.

Always Fun to hear "if your gonna call a game anything but perfect don't get it"

If you hate dialogue, why get this game?

If you hate character interactions, why get this game?

If you hate fantasy settings, why get this game?

If you hate fantasy archetypes, why get this game?

They are used. If you don't like it, and can't see that they're being used well and uniquely, well, stop playing.

I

I don't hate Dialagoue, So i got the game

I don't hate charachter interactions, So got the game

I don't hate the fantasy setting (already stated i enjoyed Dwarves and Mages quite a bit in DAO) So i got the game

and infact i never stated i hated any of those things also
I don't hate archetypes i like my dwarfs short and despite the title (as i did not mean it literally) I like elves ears pointy, I just think that one particular achetype can be more than it was in origins. Why is that so bad?

I have my opinion. And if you don't like opinions, Stop coming to a forum

I want DA2 to be more than DAO with a new art design, I don't wanna hear the same problems. I want Characters to live up to their potential, Why your attacking me instead of commenting on my ideas now is juevinille.

[BroBear Berbil]

The better to hear you with, naturally.

[D.Kain]

I think if there would be an elf mage(not dalish) companion, that character would be more than an elf.

[thegreateski]

Bring Small ELf Warrior WITH Massive armor in!

bring old unatractive elf who is not wise or particularly insightful in!

Bring a squadmate who dosen't mention his/her elven heritage in every chat IN!

1. The Warden. (warrior)

2. Zathrian

3. Zevran

[Shadow_broker]

Blasto the jelly wrote...

If elves are clice than why are humans always better than elves and dwarfs in every fantasy setting? dont u think thats clice?

What do you mean by Humans are better than elves and Dwarves?

[Maverick827]

Within the genre of fantasy fiction, it is important to have a few constants from which a reader can gain a certain bearing of the world.  This is important because it is impossible to cover every difference and every similarity, especially in a rhetorically pleasing manner (e.g. no info dumps).  Some of these constants we take for granted: gravity, nature, elements, etc.  Unless specifically stated otherwise, the reader can always infer that these exist in a fictional world as they do in our own.  

A little trick to writing fantasy fiction: anything done by an unfamiliar character that does not surprise, confuse, or shock a familiar character is a normal occurrence within the setting.  If a mage casting a spell in front of the protagonist does not elicit some unexpected response, then it is safe to assume that magic is very commonplace in this world.  Since the protagonist is the vessel through which the reader views the world, a skilled writer will know to use such a tactic to convey this information without having to explicitly say "...the mage cast a spell of fire, a feat of magic the seasoned warrior had seen many times in his adventures, .."

It is because of this that fantasy writers are easily able to append traditional elven features into their worlds.  One would expect, upon first seeing an elf, the protagonist to exclaim "my, what large ears you have!" and when he or she does not do this, then the reader knows that the elf he or she is dealing with is likely much similar to elves in previous works and not very new or extraordinary.  Because the reader is very familiar with these elves, he or she immediately understands that elves in this world don't have three arms or breath fire, or any other silly .  When quite literally everything else in the world does need to be specifically explained, these little narrative oasis are great to have on hand.

Tricked into an English minor, I've had to do a bit of writing work for my degree.  I once found myself reasoning with the reader why some sort of golden idol found by the protagonist was very valuable.  Obviously, I eventually realized how this was pointless, and that the reader would instinctively know that gold was valuable.  Yet in this world that he or she would know nothing about, I did not specifically tell them this fact and, thankfully, did not have to, because those lines were terrible no matter how well I could have written them.

[thegreateski]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Blasto the jelly wrote...

If elves are clice than why are humans always better than elves and dwarfs in every fantasy setting? dont u think thats clice?

What do you mean by Humans are better than elves and Dwarves?

The Elves are living in slums or wandering the land because they have no homeland and are continually discriminated against.

The Dwarfs are all about to die or be absorbed into Human culture.

The Humans are sitting pretty. Except for the whole Blight thing anyway.

[Saibh]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The Dalish elves were in a magic forest all right...one they weren't very "in touch" with. If you tell Keeper Zathrian that you met the talking, poetry-spouting tree, he mentions that they've never seen that tree, only demonically possessed ones that try to kill people.

The Trees transforming into Humanoid shaped monsters didn't seem familiar to you?
Cliche is hard to avoid in fantasy but that was just a "Oh comeon" moment

...Maybe you missed her point:

Zathrian is the oldest elf alive, and for being all "in touch" with nature, he's a blood mage that continuously endangers the lives of his people for his own selfish revenge--vengeance that isn't even on those who originally hurt him. For being "in touch" with nature, he doesn't even realize the Grand Oak exists or that it's a speaking, communing thing.

Honestly, if you dislike how DA uses archetypes to help weave their story, then go to a different game and different setting. They are using them to their advantage--quite well, I'll add.

Always Fun to hear "if your gonna call a game anything but perfect don't get it"

If you hate dialogue, why get this game?

If you hate character interactions, why get this game?

If you hate fantasy settings, why get this game?

If you hate fantasy archetypes, why get this game?

They are used. If you don't like it, and can't see that they're being used well and uniquely, well, stop playing.

I

I don't hate Dialagoue, So i got the game

I don't hate charachter interactions, So got the game

I don't hate the fantasy setting (already stated i enjoyed Dwarves and Mages quite a bit in DAO) So i got the game

and infact i never stated i hated any of those things also
I don't hate archetypes i like my dwarfs short and despite the title (as i did not mean it literally) I like elves ears pointy, I just think that one particular achetype can be more than it was in origins. Why is that so bad?

I have my opinion. And if you don't like opinions, Stop coming to a forum

I want DA2 to be more than DAO with a new art design, I don't wanna hear the same problems. I want Characters to live up to their potential, Why your attacking me instead of commenting on my ideas now is juevinille.

Quick! Look! The point! It's going over your hea--

Too late.

[Shadow_broker]

thegreateski wrote...

Bring Small ELf Warrior WITH Massive armor in!
bring old unatractive elf who is not wise or particularly insightful in!
Bring a squadmate who dosen't mention his/her elven heritage in every chat IN!

1. The Warden. (warrior)
2. Zathrian
3. Zevran

1. Warden has no set personality, Not an actual charater and is written by us the player, not bioware
2.Zathrian had to have some rather wise (yet arrogant) insights. He was the keeper(spiritual leader) afterall
3.I already stated that i enjoyed zevran and hope to see another character as unique as him

[andar91]

Shadow_broker wrote...

andar91 wrote...

As stated by others, it's part of the archetype. Unless you had a very good reason for it, I wouldn't break with the image; if you did, why would you bother calling them elves?

Zevran "broke" the image, I saw him as more than a elf. I want to see more charaters that have problems that are unique to them as a person, not as a race.

That's not what I meant by image; I just meant physical.  I would say that, though there are some similarities, Dragon Age's elves are different than other setting's versions.  Just the history and racism alone is interesting.

I don't see personality tied to race, but a character's (indeed, a person's) cultural and racial background can have an impact on how they see the world.  It's entirely on a case-by-case basis.  Morrigan, for example, was human, but she was raised in a highly unusual manner and as a result of that combined with her inherent personality traits, mainstream human culture was totally alien to her.  Remember when she was talking about not understand why everyone touched each other so much?  That's an example of a cultural/racial (imo) that helps flesh her out as a character.

[Shadow_broker]

Saibh wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The Dalish elves were in a magic forest all right...one they weren't very "in touch" with. If you tell Keeper Zathrian that you met the talking, poetry-spouting tree, he mentions that they've never seen that tree, only demonically possessed ones that try to kill people.

The Trees transforming into Humanoid shaped monsters didn't seem familiar to you?
Cliche is hard to avoid in fantasy but that was just a "Oh comeon" moment

...Maybe you missed her point:

Zathrian is the oldest elf alive, and for being all "in touch" with nature, he's a blood mage that continuously endangers the lives of his people for his own selfish revenge--vengeance that isn't even on those who originally hurt him. For being "in touch" with nature, he doesn't even realize the Grand Oak exists or that it's a speaking, communing thing.

Honestly, if you dislike how DA uses archetypes to help weave their story, then go to a different game and different setting. They are using them to their advantage--quite well, I'll add.

Always Fun to hear "if your gonna call a game anything but perfect don't get it"

If you hate dialogue, why get this game?

If you hate character interactions, why get this game?

If you hate fantasy settings, why get this game?

If you hate fantasy archetypes, why get this game?

They are used. If you don't like it, and can't see that they're being used well and uniquely, well, stop playing.

I

I don't hate Dialagoue, So i got the game

I don't hate charachter interactions, So got the game

I don't hate the fantasy setting (already stated i enjoyed Dwarves and Mages quite a bit in DAO) So i got the game

and infact i never stated i hated any of those things also
I don't hate archetypes i like my dwarfs short and despite the title (as i did not mean it literally) I like elves ears pointy, I just think that one particular achetype can be more than it was in origins. Why is that so bad?

I have my opinion. And if you don't like opinions, Stop coming to a forum

I want DA2 to be more than DAO with a new art design, I don't wanna hear the same problems. I want Characters to live up to their potential, Why your attacking me instead of commenting on my ideas now is juevinille.

Quick! Look! The point! It's going over your hea--

Too late.

Your point was if i don't like a single aspect of the game i should hold my tounge and never play it for that reason, No?
Your rude demaenor is not constructive, Please grow up and share your ideas rather than witty internet charm.

[thegreateski]

Shadow_broker wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Bring Small ELf Warrior WITH Massive armor in!
bring old unatractive elf who is not wise or particularly insightful in!
Bring a squadmate who dosen't mention his/her elven heritage in every chat IN!

1. The Warden. (warrior)
2. Zathrian
3. Zevran

1. Warden has no set personality, Not an actual charater and is written by us the player, not bioware
2.Zathrian had to have some rather wise (yet arrogant) insights. He was the keeper(spiritual leader) afterall
3.I already stated that i enjoyed zevran and hope to see another character as unique as him

You asked for an Elf that could wear massive armor. That's The Warden and a few mercenaries.
Zathrian is an arrogant douche. Tell me of these wonderful insights or I shall have you mauled by nugs. He was not their spiritual leader either, he simply was their leader and keeper of old Elven lore. More of a historian really.
Good. Why mention that last part as a complaint then? It makes no sense.

Modifié par thegreateski, 09 septembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[Lord_Valandil]

thegreateski wrote...
Zathrian is an arrogant douche. Tell me of these wonderful insights or I shall have you mauled by nug bombs.

Fixed.

[Saibh]

Blasto the jelly wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Blasto the jelly wrote...

If elves are clice than why are humans always better than elves and dwarfs in every fantasy setting? dont u think thats clice?

What do you mean by Humans are better than elves and Dwarves?

The Elves are living in slums or wandering the land because they have no homeland and are continually discriminated against.

The Dwarfs are all about to die or be absorbed into Human culture.

The Humans are sitting pretty. Except for the whole Blight thing anyway.

IN most fantasy settings humans are always the ones to arrive and save the day why not elves or dwafs?

Drizzt is a dark elf...

In any case, it's because we identify with humans. It's the same reason why, 90% of the time, the protagonist of a novel will share an ethnicity and country with the author.

Elves tend to be superior in most situations though. Like the Na'vi. Elves commune with nature, are ancient, beautiful, immortal, powerful, wise, and all-around better than humans. They're so perfect they'd make an insanely boring protagonist.

[ErichHartmann]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The Dalish elves were in a magic forest all right...one they weren't very "in touch" with. If you tell Keeper Zathrian that you met the talking, poetry-spouting tree, he mentions that they've never seen that tree, only demonically possessed ones that try to kill people.

The Trees transforming into Humanoid shaped monsters didn't seem familiar to you?
Cliche is hard to avoid in fantasy but that was just a "Oh comeon" moment

Cliche is hard to avoid period.  Far as I'm concerned the word is overused and has lost all meaning.

[thegreateski]

Blasto the jelly wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Blasto the jelly wrote...

If elves are clice than why are humans always better than elves and dwarfs in every fantasy setting? dont u think thats clice?

What do you mean by Humans are better than elves and Dwarves?

The Elves are living in slums or wandering the land because they have no homeland and are continually discriminated against.

The Dwarfs are all about to die or be absorbed into Human culture.

The Humans are sitting pretty. Except for the whole Blight thing anyway.

IN most fantasy settings humans are always the ones to arrive and save the day why not elves or dwarfs?

Indeed. Why not?

[Shadow_broker]

andar91 wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

andar91 wrote...

As stated by others, it's part of the archetype. Unless you had a very good reason for it, I wouldn't break with the image; if you did, why would you bother calling them elves?

Zevran "broke" the image, I saw him as more than a elf. I want to see more charaters that have problems that are unique to them as a person, not as a race.

That's not what I meant by image; I just meant physical.  I would say that, though there are some similarities, Dragon Age's elves are different than other setting's versions.  Just the history and racism alone is interesting.

I don't see personality tied to race, but a character's (indeed, a person's) cultural and racial background can have an impact on how they see the world.  It's entirely on a case-by-case basis.  Morrigan, for example, was human, but she was raised in a highly unusual manner and as a result of that combined with her inherent personality traits, mainstream human culture was totally alien to her.  Remember when she was talking about not understand why everyone touched each other so much?  That's an example of a cultural/racial (imo) that helps flesh her out as a character.

I'm not actually referring to Elves ears or any physical attribute 
I used ears as a analogy to describe the cliche'd way they acted in DAO when compared to other fantasy settings

Also I 100% agree and want a character like Zevran or morrigan who is a unique case and i would not group them under typical elf or human like how i felt with Velenna.