211 réponses à ce sujet

[Wishpig]

Zreon wrote...

Maconbar wrote...
...

In my mind the city elves were less an elven cliche and more resembled the medieval Jews of the ghettos in Europe.

The Dalish seemed more like certain Native American people or Gypsies.

That's the impression I got too. If I think of cliche elves there are two (highly subjective) images in my head:
1. A people of a declining and magical high culture which is way past its "golden age". These elves are proud and snobish and look down on other, lesser races. (High Elves)
2. A people of the mysterious and elusive kind, living hidden in forests, being one with nature and generally being more like nature spirits than anything else. ("Wood Elves", Fey)

I think neither of these fit the DA elves well. In fact, apart from the Witcher game, I haven't seen a lore where the elves are a beaten and defeated people, which are forced to live as either hardly tolerated servants for humans or as unwelcome nomads.
It feels everything but cliche to me.
Same applies for the other DA races. While they are physically like you expect them, their lore and history is quite different.

City Elves are not that cliche' *although they fit a cliche' role*

Dalish Elves are pretty cliche' they are incredibly similar to wood elves of many other franchises, like D&D's wood elves or everquest's wood elves. The only thing about Dalish Elves that I can't immediatly find a similiarity to another franchise is their nomadic nature (although D&D wood elves stem from a nomadic history). But their mind set, attitude towards humans, their look, none of that really stands out from many other fantasy franchises.

Another very important thing people seem to ignore when saying "oh Dragon Age's elves are so unique" is the fact that a very very very common theme in many fantasy franchises is Elves being a dying race and doomed civilization. Way I see it, city elves just jumped foward a bit in time to a very possible fate for these other elves.

A big problem with DA:O was how generic it all felt. In truth, only the dwarves and quanri really struck me as really standing out.

[foodstuffs]

Kritanakom wrote...

Maybe Arlathan will reveal stuff about the elves that will make them less cliche to you? Like they are all actually the third children of the maker that he had made on a small moon but who used their transmutation magic (like that which they used to make their walker guardians in Witch Hunt) to turn their moon into a SPACE GRASSHOPPER, which leapt from planet to planet until colliding with Thedas just north of the Anderfels, causing the flooding that would make the Free Marshes all marshy and creating a tidal wave that would hit the Qunari homeland, triggering the resource scarcity that made them such a warlike and stoic race!

It all makes sense!

I like it.

[Vegielamb]

Altima Darkspells wrote...

Saibh wrote...


Personally, I think the elves are an entire race of Mary Sues and I support these changes.

I myself find that humans are the general race of Mary Sues in fantasy and scifi settings.  Anything other races can do--even if it's a specialized ability--humans can pretty much always do better.  Humans are always the race that perseveres despite insurmountable odds.

Whenever the world/galaxy needs to be saved, it's a human (and more often than not, mostly humans) at the forefront, having to convince other races to put forth the minimal effort to save their own arses.

Elves, for example, may be beautiful and perfect, but only inasmuch as their own perfection highlights their failings and helps illustrate how much better humans are.  Their beauty is also marred by the fact that only the hero is worthy of such a trophy.

Dwarves are battle-hardened and honor bound, to show how strong humans are in combat, and how wonderfully they take their responsabilities.

So if elves are Mary Sues, what are humans, who can do everything elves can do but better?

^ This. Humans are so damn annoying. Yet another reason I'm not too excited about DA2. I see three cool races I want to play as and one I don't give a fig about. Guess which one I have to play?

[Vegielamb]

To answer the original question: Because elfs/elves are nature spirits associated most frequently with the alder tree in British lore. You may blame the Druids for this.

[Russalka]

Is it actually possible to write a story completely without any clichés?

[Gavinthelocust]

Russalka wrote...

Is it actually possible to write a story completely without any clichés?

Story is a cliche so it is impossible, not having a story is also cliche so no matter what your product is cliche. Complaining about things being cliche is pointless because everything in fiction is cliche now. Now enjoy your pointy ears and tree hugging god damn it.

[maxernst]

Elves cut their baby's ears to achieve the desired pointy shape. It's an ancient ritual, much like circumcision in many human societies.

[Thresh the Qunari]

that why I hate elves

[Leonia]

Thresh the Qunari wrote...

that why I hate elves

Not because they excel at poverty, right?

[Thresh the Qunari]

leonia42 wrote...

Thresh the Qunari wrote...

that why I hate elves

Not because they excel at poverty, right?

no because they are small,weak and are away whining about humans  did this to my people and that.                                               And they can not grow beards.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Because they would otherwise be human?

[addiction21]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Russalka wrote...

Is it actually possible to write a story completely without any clichés?

Story is a cliche so it is impossible, not having a story is also cliche so no matter what your product is cliche. Complaining about things being cliche is pointless because everything in fiction is cliche now. Now enjoy your pointy ears and tree hugging god damn it.

I will never enjoy tree hugging or trees in general. Smub bastards always hanging over my house dropping leaves and spinners (http://waynesword.pa...edu/plfeb99.htm first picture letter C) that clog my gutters, and the branches that come down in ice, wind, or snow storms that have caused some trouble.

So to get on the topic.  Cliche is in the context not the superficial. The only group of Elves that could be your sterotypical cliched elves we know of in the DAO universe would be the Dalish and even then that is debatable.

[marbatico]

weird thing is, i've never heard anybody complain about humans being cliche, whilst there the same in every fantasy world.

[SirShreK]

Russalka wrote...

Is it actually possible to write a story completely without any clichés?

Well...

Last time they did it big time they called it LOTR. Then they called it Robot/Foundation/Empire. After that they called it Harry Potter.

[SirOccam]

They could call Dwarves Elves and vice versa, but what would be the point? Like someone else said on Page 1, you could make all kinds of changes to them like take away the pointy ears, but then why bother calling them elves?

Making changes for no other purpose than to avoid a possible cliché is worse, in my opinion, than using a cliché.

When you say "elf," most people get a pretty good idea of what you're talking about. It's not a bad thing. Making changes to some of the trademarks of the race just makes the word meaningless. You could make a world where elves are covered in scales, have no ears at all, and have 6 legs and live underground. But is that being "original" or is that just "not an elf?" I would argue the latter. If you don't want pointy-eared humanoids with an affinity for nature, don't have elves in the story.

[foodstuffs]

Humans change from nation to nation (Ferelden vs Tevinter, Baldur's Gate vs Amn, LotR human nations, Star Wars human nations, etc). Even if you can find idiosyncrasies that link all the different humans together, ultimately they vary. Elves are almost always tree-huggers, dwarves are almost always "subterranean vikings".



I do not object to cliches, I object to the poor use of them.

[Russalka]

SirShreK wrote...

Well...

Last time they did it big time they called it LOTR. Then they called it Robot/Foundation/Empire. After that they called it Harry Potter.

The overall story may have not been cliché, but it may have consisted of quite a few of those.

[SirShreK]

Russalka wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Well...

Last time they did it big time they called it LOTR. Then they called it Robot/Foundation/Empire. After that they called it Harry Potter.

The overall story may have not been cliché, but it may have consisted of quite a few of those.

You mean humans being bipedal? Yup, lotsa cliches!

Modifié par SirShreK, 09 septembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[Saibh]

foodstuffs wrote...

Humans change from nation to nation (Ferelden vs Tevinter, Baldur's Gate vs Amn, LotR human nations, Star Wars human nations, etc). Even if you can find idiosyncrasies that link all the different humans together, ultimately they vary. Elves are almost always tree-huggers, dwarves are almost always "subterranean vikings".

I do not object to cliches, I object to the poor use of them.

The word cliche is negative by itself. If it's a cliche, it's bad. Good "cliches" are the subverted kind.

[Russalka]

SirShreK wrote...

You mean humans being bipedal? Yup, lotsa cliches!

That's my point. Everything can be a cliché. <_<

[saruman31]

Because of Tolkien.

[Saibh]

Russalka wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

You mean humans being bipedal? Yup, lotsa cliches!

That's my point. Everything can be a cliché. <_<

That's really not true. Sometimes, People Sit on Chairs.

[Sigma Tauri]

marbatico wrote...

weird thing is, i've never heard anybody complain about humans being cliche, whilst there the same in every fantasy world.

You mean no one complained why fantasy always looks like a quasi-medieval, quasi-Renaissance with European-like peoples that somehow superficially resemble their real-world counterparts being the norm? Or that the entire world is set in fantasy England?

[Face of Evil]

You know what's a cliché? Whiny fantasy fans that cry "LOTR rip-off" whenever any depiction of elves or dwarves is even remotely similar to their Middle Earth equivalents.



You can have elves that are ten metres tall, have antlers and ride around in clockwork mecha, but some people will still drag out the same tiresome complaint if their ears are kinda pointy.



It's not enough that Dragon Age's elves are quite different than the "standard fantasy elves," being a race that lost their immortality and civilization and are now reduced to either living in urban ghettos or wandering the countryside like gypsies. None of these differences matter so long as they have pointy ears, some of them use bows and they're found in close proximity to some trees, as though no one had ever lived in a forest before Tolkien's wood elves.

[Maconbar]

monkeycamoran wrote...

marbatico wrote...

weird thing is, i've never heard anybody complain about humans being cliche, whilst there the same in every fantasy world.

You mean no one complained why fantasy always looks like a quasi-medieval, quasi-Renaissance with European-like peoples that somehow superficially resemble their real-world counterparts being the norm? Or that the entire world is set in fantasy England?

That's not a cliche, its a trope.