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[Saibh]

Dave of Canada wrote...

namedforthemoon wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Shianni? A fiesty drunk who is alone in her fight to make life better for her people?

Wha-?

She started drinking early for the wedding festivities, remember? In the City Elf origin?

That doesn't make somebody a drunk, though. I've known a lot of people who drink early.

You didn't catch all of the "Oh, look, surprise, surprise, Shianni's drinking again" references? She's not a drunk in the sense...I don't know Alistair will be/is, but in the "Wow, she likes her booze" kind.

[Dave of Canada]

Saibh wrote...

You didn't catch all of the "Oh, look, surprise, surprise, Shianni's drinking again" references? She's not a drunk in the sense...I don't know Alistair will be/is, but in the "Wow, she likes her booze" kind.

Oh. I did not see that.

/fail
/shame
/jumpoffcliff

[SirOccam]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Saibh wrote...

You didn't catch all of the "Oh, look, surprise, surprise, Shianni's drinking again" references? She's not a drunk in the sense...I don't know Alistair will be/is, but in the "Wow, she likes her booze" kind.

Oh. I did not see that.

/fail
/shame
/jumpoffcliff

Huh. I honestly did not notice those earlier. Probably because I'm always nice to Shianni! The only alcohol reference I remembered was when you go back to the alienage and she says she'll get a bottle of wine and you can catch up.

I just played through the CE origin again, though, and there they are. Still, to me--and yes this is just me making excuses and justifications and ignoring what's right there in front of me--it seemed like those were just ways of being an a-hole to her and her shrugging them off. She certainly didn't seem drunk...maybe...maybe...okay you're probably right.

[Riona45]

KLUME777 wrote...

Why does everyone hate Velana?

I don't.  Many of her actions were wrong, but that can be said about some other potential companions as well.  Her anger about what happened to her people is understandable.  Also, she softens up a bit if you're patient with her--I enjoyed giving her her "plot gift."

[Dave of Canada]

Riona45 wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Why does everyone hate Velana?

I don't.  Many of her actions were wrong, but that can be said about some other potential companions as well.  Her anger about what happened to her people is understandable.  Also, she softens up a bit if you're patient with her--I enjoyed giving her her "plot gift."

I gave it to her before she mentioned the stories. That's just plain badness overall.

"Why are you giving me a book?" 
I don't know, I thought you'd like it.
"Well, I don't but thanks anyways."

[Darthnemesis2]

Riona45 wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Why does everyone hate Velana?

I don't.  Many of her actions were wrong, but that can be said about some other potential companions as well.  Her anger about what happened to her people is understandable.  Also, she softens up a bit if you're patient with her--I enjoyed giving her her "plot gift."

I didn't either, but that's probably becuase my first time through the game I was a dalish elf and she's much less mean when you first meet her. I had already seen her other side when I encountered her as my human noble so I tolerated her b!tchyness knowning she would be less stupid later.

[Riona45]

monkeycamoran wrote...

You mean no one complained why fantasy always looks like a quasi-medieval, quasi-Renaissance with European-like peoples that somehow superficially resemble their real-world counterparts being the norm? Or that the entire world is set in fantasy England?

Well, actually fantasy doesn't always look like that that, it's just that this depiction is very popular.

[Riona45]

simfamSP wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

because they're people who evolved from pointy eared wolves/foxes...being all catlike.

why are humans evolved from monkies?

a monkey is just a really stupid, yet even more mischiveous tree-feline that likes to swing around in trees while being in the jungle, that's what humans are... pi jacks (even more easier to compute the calculation of pi into their brain for control, where as a super logical elf is Extremely Low Frequency with their superior bioelectric alpha/beta waves, and supreme intelligence)

Sorry but did you just call Monkey's stupid? Do you have experiance working with them? Because I can tell you first hand that they are very intelligent animals, scary intelligent.

Moreover, humans evolved from apes.

[Riona45]

Shadow_broker wrote...
I simply pointed out that Zarathrian was indeed Wise, caring, and compassionate IMO which you stated he was not.

She pointed out that he was not, because he wasn't.  He was not any of those things at the time the Warden meets him.

[Riona45]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Why does everyone hate Velana?

I don't.  Many of her actions were wrong, but that can be said about some other potential companions as well.  Her anger about what happened to her people is understandable.  Also, she softens up a bit if you're patient with her--I enjoyed giving her her "plot gift."

I gave it to her before she mentioned the stories. That's just plain badness overall.

"Why are you giving me a book?" 
I don't know, I thought you'd like it.
"Well, I don't but thanks anyways."

That's how the conversation goes?  LOL!

[Inquisitor Recon]

Why do elves have pointy ears? Why are dwarves shorter than humans, why is grass green, why do cars have break, why don't jaguars have wings?



These are questions you just don't ask. Your teacher may have told you once "there is no such thing as a stupid question" but he/she was horribly wrong.

[Sigma Tauri]

ReconTeam wrote...

Why do elves have pointy ears? Why are dwarves shorter than humans, why is grass green, why do cars have break, why don't jaguars have wings?

These are questions you just don't ask. Your teacher may have told you once "there is no such thing as a stupid question" but he/she was horribly wrong.

Right...

Because the answer to all of them is just because.

There are idiotic questions, especially when the answer is right in front of their face. Other than the jaguar with wings, the elves and dwarves anatomy questions are legitimate with answers that aren't necessarily found in ("common") sense.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 11 septembre 2010 - 01:20 .

[Saibh]

monkeycamoran wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Why do elves have pointy ears? Why are dwarves shorter than humans, why is grass green, why do cars have break, why don't jaguars have wings?

These are questions you just don't ask. Your teacher may have told you once "there is no such thing as a stupid question" but he/she was horribly wrong.

Right...

Because the answer to all of them is just because.

There are idiotic questions, especially when the answer is right in front of their face. Other than the jaguar with wings, the elves and dwarves anatomy questions are legitimate with answers that aren't necessarily found in ("common") sense.

They are archetypes associated with the race. There's your answer. A foundation of their conception, and non-negotiable when it comes to their species.

[Sigma Tauri]

Saibh wrote...

They are archetypes associated with the race. There's your answer. A foundation of their conception, and non-negotiable when it comes to their species.

I know your answer, and frankly I believe it's not as concrete as you may think. The choice of how an elf looks depends on the artist or author for a piece of work, being that elves are malleable as any fictional race. The fact that Dragon Age made elves have long ears suggest Bioware wanted them to be recognizable as elves being that they do have a common image imprinted in the public's mind. This also distinguishes them that even if they are humanoid, they are not human. However, if someone wants to make an elf in a more traditional folkloric appearance with normal ears and short stature, you can argue they're more akin to gnomes and dwarves more, that guy will still call it an elf.

I believe there's another way to call an elf than archetype. It's called deviation.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 11 septembre 2010 - 02:15 .

[Leonia]

Y'know, every time I read this thread title, I chuckle to myself. I have to remember hat it's a thread about discussing archetypes and cliches and not just someone not understanding the definition of "elf".

Modifié par leonia42, 11 septembre 2010 - 03:14 .

[Way to go]

Shadow_broker wrote...

 Elves were incredibly Cliche in DAO particularly the dalish, The only one who was honestly unpredictable was zevran, I want to be invested in their struggles and feel like insights from another race intresting rather than the Typical.

I use The Elf Ears as an Analog for their Cliche personality, Why do Elves always have pointy ears?
Keep Dalish out
Keep Velanna out
Keep Elven Archer squadmate out
Keep Elf who Rose up from the slums despite racial disadvantages OUT
All Cliches all pointy ears

Let's see some of these Rather
Bring Small ELf Warrior WITH Massive armor in!
bring old unatractive elf who is not wise or particularly insightful in!
Bring a squadmate who dosen't mention his/her elven heritage in every chat IN!

So how bout it Bioware, With hawke in the free marches can we write away from those Pointy eared elfs and into a new age of Elfs that care about something more than their Bow's,nature, and Long male Hair?

Way to go.

[Russalka]

I actually rather miss the serene and ageless elven figure. Perhaps a companion could be one?

[Saibh]

monkeycamoran wrote...

I know your answer, and frankly I believe it's not as concrete as you may think. The choice of how an elf looks depends on the artist or author for a piece of work, being that elves are malleable as any fictional race. The fact that Dragon Age made elves have long ears suggest Bioware wanted them to be recognizable as elves being that they do have a common image imprinted in the public's mind. This also distinguishes them that even if they are humanoid, they are not human. However, if someone wants to make an elf in a more traditional folkloric appearance with normal ears and short stature, you can argue they're more akin to gnomes and dwarves more, that guy will still call it an elf.

I believe there's another way to call an elf than archetype. It's called deviation.

No, those are two different creatures with the same name. People would forever be explaining that these elves are the Keebler-Santa kind, not the Tolkien-WoW kind. Regardless, I usually see short elves with pointed ears. Maybe long ago in folklore they didn't, but, hey, long ago in folklore Tolkien elves didn't exist. The closest you could get were the Sidhe.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I can call a dog a cat. And people will rage, and I will continue calling it a cat. But it's still a dog.



Variation is one thing - but if you go too far, you end up too far from the original concept to be even considered the same thing.

[Heimdall]

Russalka wrote...

I actually rather miss the serene and ageless elven figure. Perhaps a companion could be one?

One of the last immortal elf from Arlathan maybe?  That would be interesting.

[Sigma Tauri]

Saibh wrote...

monkeycamoran wrote...

I know your answer, and frankly I believe it's not as concrete as you may think. The choice of how an elf looks depends on the artist or author for a piece of work, being that elves are malleable as any fictional race. The fact that Dragon Age made elves have long ears suggest Bioware wanted them to be recognizable as elves being that they do have a common image imprinted in the public's mind. This also distinguishes them that even if they are humanoid, they are not human. However, if someone wants to make an elf in a more traditional folkloric appearance with normal ears and short stature, you can argue they're more akin to gnomes and dwarves more, that guy will still call it an elf.

I believe there's another way to call an elf than archetype. It's called deviation.

No, those are two different creatures with the same name. People would forever be explaining that these elves are the Keebler-Santa kind, not the Tolkien-WoW kind. Regardless, I usually see short elves with pointed ears. Maybe long ago in folklore they didn't, but, hey, long ago in folklore Tolkien elves didn't exist. The closest you could get were the Sidhe.

That's not my point. What I'm saying is that elves are fictional creatures. They're more subject to the whims and imagination of the author or artist. Elves are creatures of myth and folklore. They are not a biological species. The idea of an elf with pointy ears have become popularized as a result of fantasy, but it was because of deviating from an folkloric idea of elves. What does that suggest about fictional races? They are mutable, but those changes are subject to their role in a fantasy work.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 11 septembre 2010 - 09:07 .

[Heimdall]

They're not clones of Tolkein elves, that's all I need. Tolkein's were all six feet tall, ethereal and I seem to recall the Silmarillion mentioning leaf shaped ears. Aside from the ears the DA elves are nothing like them.

[Shadow_broker]

This thread has been alive for like a week now,

Obviously we're not going to reach a consenseus on the diffrence between archetype and sterotype

Let it die everyone

[Saibh]

monkeycamoran wrote...

Saibh wrote...

monkeycamoran wrote...

I know your answer, and frankly I believe it's not as concrete as you may think. The choice of how an elf looks depends on the artist or author for a piece of work, being that elves are malleable as any fictional race. The fact that Dragon Age made elves have long ears suggest Bioware wanted them to be recognizable as elves being that they do have a common image imprinted in the public's mind. This also distinguishes them that even if they are humanoid, they are not human. However, if someone wants to make an elf in a more traditional folkloric appearance with normal ears and short stature, you can argue they're more akin to gnomes and dwarves more, that guy will still call it an elf.

I believe there's another way to call an elf than archetype. It's called deviation.

No, those are two different creatures with the same name. People would forever be explaining that these elves are the Keebler-Santa kind, not the Tolkien-WoW kind. Regardless, I usually see short elves with pointed ears. Maybe long ago in folklore they didn't, but, hey, long ago in folklore Tolkien elves didn't exist. The closest you could get were the Sidhe.

That's not my point. What I'm saying is that elves are fictional creatures. They're more subject to the whims and imagination of the author or artist. Elves are creatures of myth and folklore. They are not a biological species. The idea of an elf with pointy ears have become popularized as a result of fantasy, but it was because of deviating from an folkloric idea of elves. What does that suggest about fictional races? They are mutable, but those changes are subject to their role in a fantasy work.

There is an accepted archetype now, and to seperate something fundamental with the elves completely--like pointed ears--would be to seperate them from what we call elves.

I think you're also missing the point where Tolkien just stamped the word "elf" on the species he made (with inspiration, of course), not that they were made over time and eventually evolved into the beings Tolkien used. Since their conception we've held several things true about them--whether Tolkien gave the elves sharp ears is a bit debatable, but, we, as a culture have taken that to be true.