120 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

-Skorpious- wrote...

Plus, the Yahg's technology is nowhere near that of other galactic races, meaning, they have a greater chance of succumbing to the reapers mind-control (plus, they probably lack the technology to actually combat a reaper, let alone a fleet of them).

How do you reach  that conclusion?  From everything we've seen, if you're an organic, you're able to be indoctrinated, period.  It has nothing to do with how good or sophisticated the machines you build are. 

[RiouHotaru]

searanox wrote...
I'm not saying you can't expand lore, or that we can't have new races added to the existing ones, or new technology, or whatever.  The issue comes when it turns into a crutch for lazy storytelling.  As I said, BioWare set up the character of the Shadow Broker across two games, only to reveal him as a throwaway boss designed specifically to look cool and imposing while you riddled him with bullets.  There's nothing to him as a character at all - he's just another huge bug-eyed alien who you kill half a minute after meeting.

That said, the thermal clips thing was still just handled really poorly.  I'm not a fan of random, logic-breaking retcons for the sake of gameplay, because it can become a slippery slope.  Just look at Bethesda's utter rape and destruction of the entire Fallout canon to see what happens when a developer gets lazy and starts trying to justify everything with "but it's cool".  It's quite clear that Mass Effect is starting to head in that direction, considering its entire plot is built entirely on illogical revisions to the canon and railroading.

I for one don't think it was an ass-pull at all.  I was under the impression that the Shadow Broker HAD to be an AI to handle all the information, or that it wasn't a single person at all.  To find out differently was great.  The Shadow Broker originally had NO known species or gender tied to the identity, we were operating in a complete fog as far as he as the Shadow Broker was concerned.  The fact it's a new species they made is likely a showcase of things to come, NOT just a one-off.  As for killing him a minute after meeting him, think about WHY Liara was there to begin with.  She was there to kill him in the first place.  Regardless of who the SB was she'd have slaughtered him/her/it anyway.

As for the thermal clips.  I fail to see how it's a "logic-breaking retcon."  It's a clear example of where storyline and gameplay mechanics separate.  From a storyline view the change to thermal clips makes perfect sense.  It's a vast improvement in the technology.  Gameplay wise sure, it's likely not an "improvement" but I consider it a lot more fun than the spray and pray we had originally.  I fail to see how Mass Effect is "railroading" at anything.

[-Skorpious-]

didymos1120 wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...

Plus, the Yahg's technology is nowhere near that of other galactic races, meaning, they have a greater chance of succumbing to the reapers mind-control (plus, they probably lack the technology to actually combat a reaper, let alone a fleet of them).

How do you reach  that conclusion?  From everything we've seen, if you're an organic, you're able to be indoctrinated, period.  It has nothing to do with how good or sophisticated the machines you build are. 

I imagine its hard to fight a reaper with 20th century tech and survive. Shepard, the Citadel Fleet, the Alliance - they were able to fight Sovereign and (undenialably) escape indoctrination that would have followed if the reaper would have succeeded. The reason? Their tech was advanced enough to pierce the shields/armor of a reaper.

The Yahg, despite their overwhelming strength and girth, simply do not posess the technology required to combat an invading reaper. Hell, they can't even leave their own planet with their current technology. In short, the Yahg are screwed if the reapers decide they are worth invading.

[Sidewinder_617]

who said the yahg doesn't already help the reapers?

[didymos1120]

-Skorpious- wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...

Plus, the Yahg's technology is nowhere near that of other galactic races, meaning, they have a greater chance of succumbing to the reapers mind-control (plus, they probably lack the technology to actually combat a reaper, let alone a fleet of them).

How do you reach  that conclusion?  From everything we've seen, if you're an organic, you're able to be indoctrinated, period.  It has nothing to do with how good or sophisticated the machines you build are. 

I imagine its hard to fight a reaper with 20th century tech and survive. Shepard, the Citadel Fleet, the Alliance - they were able to fight Sovereign and (undenialably) escape indoctrination that would have followed if the reaper would have succeeded. The reason? Their tech was advanced enough to pierce the shields/armor of a reaper.

The Yahg, despite their overwhelming strength and girth, simply do not posess the technology required to combat an invading reaper. Hell, they can't even leave their own planet with their current technology. In short, the Yahg are screwed if the reapers decide they are worth invading.

All of which completely fails to address how lower tech gear makes you more vulnerable to indoctrination in and of itself.  I wasn't asking how lower tech gear makes you more vulnerable to getting your ass kicked the old-fashioned way, and thus unable to avoid exposure to it in the short-term.  That's obvious (and also a bit of cheap semantic trick).

Modifié par didymos1120, 09 septembre 2010 - 11:06 .

[didymos1120]

Sidewinder_617 wrote...

who said the yahg doesn't already help the reapers?

That's irrelevant:  there's no evidence to say they are, which is what matters.

[Ferocious7]

Infiltrator678 wrote...

was it just me or was the yahg the same creature as the statue from Donovan Hock's vault from stealing memory?

Didn't bother to read if anyone answered yet this but just in case, no.  That was an Ogre from Dragon Age: Origins  lol  (there was also a comment made by Kasumi in regards to meeting one of those in a dark alley when you viewed it).

[adriano_c]

When they were shoving the silhouette, I thought it was going to be some sort of steroid-popping salarian. Then it ends up being some sort of garbled amalgam of salarian, batarian, krogan and vorcha. Somewhat disappointing.

[Jonathan Shepard]

searanox wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Um no, cause that would have been cliche, same with revealing it was Liara's father (another interesting topic here)

There's nothing wrong with cliches and tropes so long as they are executed well.  BioWare spent years setting up the Shadow Broker and they took possibly the dumbest and most baffling route possible.

Oh, please. It's a huge galaxy. It didn't have to be anyone Shepard or any of his squad mates knew. I think it was just fine having him be something we hadn't seen before. Why? Because very few of us expected it, and I don't think ANYONE expected him to be a species we hadn't seen. Sure, he was more of a brute than I would've liked him to be, but I still believe that making the Shadow Broker anyone we knew would've been even more of an ass-pull. Sure, it would've been nice and familiar, but it just wouldn't make sense.

[KainrycKarr]

I liked it, and didn't like it. I wanted a conspiracy type thing, but at the same time it was pretty cool to see something new, because I like seeing new species. Hopefully the Yahg will end up more in-depth than the cartoon-esque Vorcha.

[EmperorKaveje]

searanox wrote...

The yahg are pretty neat, design wise, but their background is positively anemic compared to the other races.  They have potential to find a meaningful place in the story but I really don't see them becoming a staple like some of the other races.

Regarding the Shadow Broker, it's very obvious that BioWare had no real idea who he/she even was until they got around to making the DLC.  I was genuinely surprised to find that the Shadow Broker wasn't an established character, but rather... a big ugly alien who you fight in a boss battle.  Really?  Is that the best they could do?  It's a total ass-pull, and while the Shadow Broker doesn't have to be an established character, the way it was done feels random, lazy, and incoherent.  Certainly someone suggested better ideas.  They must have.

I think this really is endemic of a problem with Mass Effect 2 and the direction the series is going as a whole.  I'll just come out and say it, the new writers they have for the series are okay when it comes to dialogue, and awful when it comes to producing coherent stories.  Everything in Mass Effect 2 feels like it was made up along the way, and we're expected to excuse characters with poor motivations, illogical events, and stupid decisions in the name of big explosions.  I was hoping Lair of the Shadow Broker would be something that moved in the right direction this way, but nope.  The individual elements are fine, but the way they come together is just sloppy, and in a relatively small DLC add-on, that's pretty inexcusable.

I respect you for saying what you think unlike a lot of mass effect fans who defend every decsion "EA"(formerly Bioware) makes.

Me Personally,I liked the DLC -I think it was the BEST DLC yet.

[didymos1120]

adriano_c wrote...

When they were shoving the silhouette, I thought it was going to be some sort of steroid-popping salarian. Then it ends up being some sort of garbled amalgam of salarian, batarian, krogan and vorcha. Somewhat disappointing.

OK, Salarian due to the Broker being a super quick study (though not quite as quick, and without the lifespan issue).  Batarian because of the eight eyes, I suppose (which is a really shallow sort of similarity, especially since Batty's only have the four.  As well complain asari, turians and salarians all have just the two).  Krogan for being big, physically aggressive, and strong (none of which are patented by the Krogan.  Humans and turians are also quite physically aggressive when they feel like it, for instance).  Vorcha because of.....um, what makes the yahg particularly like the vorcha?  Other than two arms, two legs, and a head with a mouth and some eyes, that is. 

[Eradyn]

I had no problem with the yahg shadow broker. I thought he was a very interesting character; refined and cultured, but also looking and sounding very "brutish." Ultimately, I thought he made for an awesome "ambassador" of his species, although I do now worry about the implications in ME3 should the reapers get a hold on them (as another brought up).



Only complaint is that the fight against him is standard fare. Vasir was a breath of fresh air; while ultimately the fight with the Spectre is still involving dodging and pumping enough lead into a body, she charged around which did make it different in that respect. The yahg just had a lot of health and protection while he lumbered around.

[Heavensrun]

I thought the Yahg was cool, and I'm -glad- the SB wasn't somebody we know. The identity of the SB is supposed to be completely unknown. That would be way too difficult for any of the high-profile people Shep knows (like the councilors, etc) and it would just be absurdly unlikely if Shep just happened to bump into the Shadow Broker in some mundane secret identity. Instead, it was something we've never seen, and that made for a pretty cool reveal, IMPO.



I -do- think that adding more of his species to the series would diminish the moment, tho.

[TRISTAN WERBE]

Heavensrun wrote...

I thought the Yahg was cool, and I'm -glad- the SB wasn't somebody we know. The identity of the SB is supposed to be completely unknown. That would be way too difficult for any of the high-profile people Shep knows (like the councilors, etc) and it would just be absurdly unlikely if Shep just happened to bump into the Shadow Broker in some mundane secret identity. Instead, it was something we've never seen, and that made for a pretty cool reveal, IMPO.

I -do- think that adding more of his species to the series would diminish the moment, tho.

well they already added vorcha,collectors,and dreel. now the yahg suprise me more bioware

[Legbiter]

The yahg was a pleasant surprise. I was certain the SB was an A.I.

[JG The Gamer]

I originally thought it was a krogan wearing a mask until I got a good look at its face. While vicious, the yahg are depicted to be a quick adapting species in regards to mentality.



The arrogance of the Shadow Broker just astounded me to no end, until I saw how capable he was of defending himself from three attackers.



And again, he was the Shadow Broker, a figure shrouded multiple times in mystery as to the identity. It could have been another Reaper for all we knew. So the fact it's a new species can slide just fine.

[Mudzr]

I liked the twist. Yes I think a bit of forshadowing would have gone a long way (the species could have just been mentioned off-handily), and I would have prefered the yahg to be really small and scrawny, but what he represents still stands- the shadow broker was not one of the "major" species or even one of the great individuals we have heard of/ seen before, he was a species deemed unimportant by the rest of the galaxy, a species they tried to ignore, and then he rose so high that he was able to completly control their world.

Also guys, if the shadow broker was someone we already met, how would have that been possible since i'm pretty sure the SB spends nearly all of his time on the ship. I don't think he'd have the chance to just skip down to the bar and hang out there untill Shepard arrived. Also i'm a little relieved that the SB turned out not to be liara's dad or another human.

On top of this- we get yet another new species (I suspect the yahg has the backstory that the vorcha once had).

[PWENER]

searanox wrote...

The yahg are pretty neat, design wise, but their background is positively anemic compared to the other races.  They have potential to find a meaningful place in the story but I really don't see them becoming a staple like some of the other races.

Regarding the Shadow Broker, it's very obvious that BioWare had no real idea who he/she even was until they got around to making the DLC.  I was genuinely surprised to find that the Shadow Broker wasn't an established character, but rather... a big ugly alien who you fight in a boss battle.  Really?  Is that the best they could do?  It's a total ass-pull, and while the Shadow Broker doesn't have to be an established character, the way it was done feels random, lazy, and incoherent.  Certainly someone suggested better ideas.  They must have.

I think this really is endemic of a problem with Mass Effect 2 and the direction the series is going as a whole.  I'll just come out and say it, the new writers they have for the series are okay when it comes to dialogue, and awful when it comes to producing coherent stories.  Everything in Mass Effect 2 feels like it was made up along the way, and we're expected to excuse characters with poor motivations, illogical events, and stupid decisions in the name of big explosions.  I was hoping Lair of the Shadow Broker would be something that moved in the right direction this way, but nope.  The individual elements are fine, but the way they come together is just sloppy, and in a relatively small DLC add-on, that's pretty inexcusable.

Has anyone quoted this moron yet?

The "Shadow Broker" is a title, not someone. Plus, the other suggested ideas were Feron, random alien races and Conrad Verner, seriouzly? That idiot? You fail in your attempt to insult BW and should kill yourself.

[Rodney Chongo]

I think Bioware dropping hints that the SB is more than one person left them an out. How do we know that Liara didn't just replace A Shadow Broker rather than THE Shadow Broker?

[NKKKK]

Read the consoles.

[didymos1120]

Rodney Chongo wrote...

I think Bioware dropping hints that the SB is more than one person left them an out. How do we know that Liara didn't just replace A Shadow Broker rather than THE Shadow Broker?

We know because the dossier on the Shadow Broker tells us that's exactly what she did.  The Yahg killed the previous one, who may or may not have been the very first.

[Tokion]

"Yahg, the newest council species on the Citadel"



Udina: THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!



Make it happen Bioware!

[Eternal Density]

Eradyn wrote...

Only complaint is that the fight against him is standard fare. Vasir was a breath of fresh air; while ultimately the fight with the Spectre is still involving dodging and pumping enough lead into a body, she charged around which did make it different in that respect. The yahg just had a lot of health and protection while he lumbered around.

I thought the yahg fight was not so standard, what with the shooting+melee and the red shield thingy.
As for Vasir, I played a Vanguard so double the Biotic Charge is double the fun. But I'll agree that pretty much every fight is dodging and pumping lead into things, not a lot that can be done about that. Though on the outside of the ship, tactical use of lightning made for some less standard gameplay.

[Xivai]

Pathetic, we need some real aliens in here.



"The Xivai are long creatures, the females growing up to about ten feet long and the males growing to about eight feet long. Despite their length, Xivai are not bulky creatures. The majority of their body weight is muscle, tendon, cartilage, and chitinous exoskeleton. The Xivai are unique in that they possess both an endoskeleton and an exoskeleton, the former being composed out of collagen and cartilage and the latter being composed out of keratin and chitin. The Xivai also constantly generate a thick layer of mucus, which retains heat and protects the Xivai from temperature extremes. The mucus also sets and hardens after several days of inactivity, forming a hard black substance not unlike the Xivai’s exoskeleton.



The Xivai have ten limbs; three pairs of tentacles and two pairs of fin-arms/legs. Their fin-arms are their primary means of manipulation, and they have two forearms diverging from the same joint on each fin-arm. Their hands consist of three claw-fingers and a fourth shorter claw serving as a thumb. Membranes in between their digits can expand to help them swim, or contract to help them manipulate fine objects. Their fin-legs have the same diverging, and they have two shins for each knee. Their feet are rigid fins, the digits unable to move separately and the membrane-fin unable to contract. The three pairs of tentacles growing out of the Xivai’s backs each have five grasping digits, though they are clumsy compared to the fin-hands of the Xivai.



The Xivai, lacking the ability to smell, see, or hear, and with only a rudimentary sense of taste, use touch and electrolocation as their main senses. At the depths at which they live in the ocean, there is little to no light to see by. Instead, a lateral line running down the length of their bodies contains thousands of extremely sensitive electroreceptors, similar to the Ampullae of Lorenzi found in Earth’s sharks and rays. Xivai generate their own electric field, allowing them to detect and ‘see’ the nervous systems of other organisms. Their electroreception capabilities are so sensitive that they can detect misfires of neurons and other subtle changes in the physiology of their prey, allowing them to find the weakest prey and the most vulnerable points on its body. Electroplaques stored alongside the electroreceptors also allow the Xivai to generate powerful charges of electricity, which can be discharged through the tentacles with enough power to stun or outright kill most organisms smaller than the Xivai. The electroplaques can also generate smaller electric signals, which are the primary method of communication among the Xivai. This discharging of signals allows Xivai to communicate thoughts directly to each other, with nothing lost in translation or understanding. Electric eels on Earth communicate via the same mechanism.



The Xivai are among the highest ranks of the food chain. They are preyed on occasionally, though only by the most desperate and hungry of creatures. Xivai have a circular mouth, lined with long dagger-like teeth set in a muscular ring. The ring can contract to push in the teeth, which allows Xivai to grab and swallow large chunks of meat without any sort of chewing or processing. Female Xivai, the larger and physically dominant members of the species, have a long horn set directly above their mouth. The horn is slightly venomous, though the venom sac is a vestigial organ and its potency is often negligible. Older females tend to have spiky offshoots on their horn, growing out where the horn has been chipped or cracked. On their long whip-like tails, Xivai have six long needle-like spines, which can cause deep gashes when accompanied by a powerful flick of the tail. Like the horn, these spines are connected to a vestigial venom sac.



The Xivai have developed a menagerie of symbiotic relationships dating back far into their evolutionary history, different and specific to Xivai of each region. Still, there are two symbionts that all Xivai carry, dating back to a time before they diverged. The primary symbionts are deep-sea pycnogonids dubbed the Carcharii, or in the singular, Carcharas. They are swarming organisms who live in vast, loosely-connected hive-swarms accompanying large groups of Xivai. At any given time, a Xivai usually has ten or twenty Carcharii on it, ranging from lengths of a couple inches to a maximum (and rare) length of three feet. The Carcharii live and sleep within various nooks and crannies in the Xivai’s exoskeleton feeding off of detritus and parasites, though they may venture off the Xivai’s body and seek out small prey or a carcass of their own. The Carcharii are not just passive body-cleaners, though. When the Xivai go on a hunt, the Carcharii serve a large role. They have a strong sense of taste, and can detect blood from hundreds of metres away. Communicating to their hosts via a series of electric pulses, the Carcharii can direct Xivai hunting parties toward prey. When the prey is reached, the Carcharii will help to subdue it, swarming onto it en masse and biting it. The biting mass, injecting small doses of sedative with cnidocyte-laced radulas, are a major role in the containment of the prey. When the prey is dead, the Carcharii are the first on the corpse, eating soft flesh like eyeballs and fat.



The second symbiont plays a more passive role. A colony-forming bacteria resides in chimney-like structures found on the Xivai’s backs, growing and breeding in the natural cavities formed by the Xivai’s body. In addition to the shelter, porous flesh within the area secretes out a chemical feed for the bacterial autotrophs. In return for the shelter and food, the bacteria can secrete a hallucinogenic chemical when stimulated by electrical pulses from the Xivai’s body. The Xivai themselves are immune to the psychoactive effects of the chemical, but it is of great use in subduing prey. Often in a long battle, the water will be thick with the transparent substance, the effects becoming increasingly stronger until the prey or enemy is dead.



The Xivai – Social Life & Reproduction



The Xivai are creatures with a eusocial society in which the majority of the population are sexually sterile and there is one major breeding female, the Queen. The Queen is massive, easily two to four times larger than even the largest female of her colony. Her colossal proportions are made even larger by a massive bloated ovipositor emerging out of her rear. The ovipositor, a grotesque muscled sphincter, is used for laying eggs, it’s slimy bulk revealing the shadows of eggs yet unlaid within. The Queen’s chamber is usually the largest in the colony’s territory, its width and length strewn with eggs. The rate at which eggs are laid depends entirely on the Queen’s diet and the amount of incoming nutrients. She can put out an egg at least once a week even near starvation, but when food is plentiful, over a dozen eggs can be laid in a week. The Queen lives far longer than an ordinary Xiva, her natural lifespan being around 180 years, a bit over double an ordinary lifespan.



Xivai exhibit strong sexual dimorphism, despite the fact that they are all sterile, except for the queen. Males are less dominant than females, both physically and psychologically. They lack the long horns that females have, and never grow as long or large. There is no King to rival the Queen in their society. Instead, once a year, several Xivai males with the most useful genes will suddenly develop sexual organs and mate with the Queen. Their bloodline will be assimilated into the Xivai gene pool for all of eternity. It is a great honour to be able to mate with the Queen, despite their death - at the Queen’s own teeth and claws, no less – immediately after.



The Xivai – Cultural Behaviours



The Xivai, like all races, differ greatly in their mindsets and social philosophies, though all have a similar frame in which they perceive the world. The Xivai are social predators by instinct, living in colonies in which one individual, the Queen, holds the lifeblood of the entire colony. The Queen’s importance is engraved into their psyche, for without her the colony is doomed, it’s genetic legacy dead. Though a murdered Queen can be replaced, it is starting from a near blank slate, for the replacement Queen’s gene pool is inherently imperfect. A true Queen can only be born from the womb of another pureblood Queen in the final years of her long life. Only then will the carefully maintained gene pool be passed on intact. The loss of a Queen is the most mortal blow that can be delivered to any Xivai society. Once a pureblood line is lost, it can never be recovered. Purebloods date back from before cultural memory, aeons before the first complex thoughts began running in the minds of the Xivai. The cultural stigma of purity – in blood, genetics, and other things is a hugely dominant trend, ingrained into their instincts. The culture’s focus on purity makes it prone to harshly enforced religions with inquisitions and zealots.



The natural predatory instincts of the Xivai reflect themselves in Xivai society by aggressive, impulsive actions. Uncivilized Xivai colonies are brutal, cannibalistic opportunist societies where one Xivai has as much to fear from its neighbour as it does from a hungry Mawhound. Such are their natural tendencies. Civilized Xivai societies have a wide range of cultural philosophies, though all stem from the brutal opportunistic mind patterns of the species as a whole. This does not necessarily mean that all of them are militaristic fascist killers, only that they seek to benefit themselves before others, morality be damned. This is also true of humans, though technology has allowed us to invent a façade of morality before our instinctual souls. The Xivai, a permanently aquatic species, does not have the luxury of fire and the technological paths it opens. Their tools, the environment. Their technology, the organisms living with them.



Origins and Influence on the Xivai



The Xivai are the offspring of one of the many Spore-inspired voting games that sprung up all over the Internet like STDs on hookers. Inspired by the wave of Spore games beginning on the Spore GameFAQs boards, I started a small thread in The Elder Scrolls Community Discussion forums. A loyal following soon grew around it, and after several months of strong participation, a new rule against forum games saw that the game, now dubbed Genesis, moved to its own forums. As individual forums do, it stagnated there. Sure, its loyal following continued there, but it didn’t move as fast or as much as it used to, but it maintained a small community of voters. Over time, even those began dropping out. I got lazy and busy, and updates came rarely. To this day less then 10 people visit those forums. Still, it had a run lasting longer than a year, which is a lot more than most Spore games can say. It finished its cell and creature stage as well, having given birth to a sapient species in the form of the Xivai.



The Xivai have been influenced by several different sources, though they are entirely original. H.R. Giger has served as a large influence on the physical design, though not necessarily on the actual Xivai. I used a childhood Aliens toy to design the exoskeleton of the Xivai, which is where the Gigerian influence is most powerful. H.P. Lovecraft also served as a large influence on the mind and social life of the Xivai, though that was mostly my part, not the voters. I’m a huge Lovecraft fan, and the Mythos has inspired me a lot."