106 réponses à ce sujet

[Orogun01]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Grahamers.. rogues can be just as tough as warriors, to be honest. They can wear the same armor, they can pump stats into constitution.. IMO, it's kind of stupid. Rogues get lots of skills warriors don't but warriors don't really have anything rogues would need... all of the warrior talents are for tanking..

Rogues skills benefit from Dex and cunning, if you spend points trying to make your Rogue into a tank then you are left with neither a good rogue nor a good tank. Rogues deal damage trough backstabbing or from a distance with bows, they are not meant to be front line warriors. Also Rogues don't have a two handed sword nor a shield talent tree, so what were the many skills you are talking about? To put it simply training a rogue on a warrior build makes no sense.

[Direbrute]

Kebrahl wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Depends. My strength is 42 and dexterity 37.. cunning 21. With items, my dex is about 52, though.. and Strength 47 or something.

I'm assuming you have the dex fix?

What is this dex fix you talk about?

I think maybe he was talking about: http://dragonage.gul...rity_hotfix_101

Modifié par Direbrute, 11 novembre 2009 - 05:27 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

Orogun01 wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Grahamers.. rogues can be just as tough as warriors, to be honest. They can wear the same armor, they can pump stats into constitution.. IMO, it's kind of stupid. Rogues get lots of skills warriors don't but warriors don't really have anything rogues would need... all of the warrior talents are for tanking..

Rogues skills benefit from Dex and cunning, if you spend points trying to make your Rogue into a tank then you are left with neither a good rogue nor a good tank. Rogues deal damage trough backstabbing or from a distance with bows, they are not meant to be front line warriors. Also Rogues don't have a two handed sword nor a shield talent tree, so what were the many skills you are talking about? To put it simply training a rogue on a warrior build makes no sense.

You can be a tank and a good damage dealer. You can just not spend any points in Cunning, dump those into Con instead. Then get a 25% evasion Rogue talent and you're one heck of a tank. Rogues deal damage just like warriors do - BUT they have an ace in their sleeve - the back and face stabbing. Rogues in DA:O can be front line fighters.. in fact, they excel there. Rogues don't have two handed sword nor shield talent trees, yes.. 2H is a waste, it honestly is just bad. Dual wielding does everything much, much better. Shield talents are good for tanking, yes.. but the Rogue's 25% evasion outweights the shield talents or they are at least equal. Plus the rogue will deal more damage because he's dual wielding.

[CrillanK]

I think one part of the the problem is people that aren't controlling the rogue think they suck. I always play a rogue in games and I can tell you he's awesome in combat. I've noticed the mages kind of suck unless I control them so it's the opposite side of the argument. When I'm meleeing behind the enemy, the health drops like a rock. Until I attack, the enemies slowly die.



Part of being a rogue is knowing and using all of the abilities correctly. They're easily the most fun class to play with all of their abilities for combat and non-combat.

[EzFlyer]

my rogue is already becoming an absolute beast. i will agree that at first it's tougher, but that's both because your char hasn't developed yet and you, yourself, haven't figured out how best to use him/her.



as you get armor for your tank & better weapons & talents for your rogue, they both become great at what they do. add in some support from mages & no, having a rogue in your party does not suck. he's by far my biggest dps.

[Ed Mckman]

Rogues got the shaft. You have one choice, backstabbing, if you dont like that, then quit because the bow is useless.

[dragoaskani]

Direbrute your link just takes us to nonsense page. Though its possible that its acting up because the forum server is being overloaded today and is acting all kinds of weird.

[Ultrazennn]

In my opinion, a cunning/lethality rogue is the best build in the game to play as a main.  Cunning does quite a few things for you, especially as a main character.

As far as damage output goes, mines a monster on single targets, wouldn't be without one in the party.

[Tsaritsyn]

I haven't felt at all like my rogue is underpowered.  On the contrary, he does great damage and is at least as survivable as anyone in the party save Alastair with the best armor and all the shield talents.

The rogue has worked well for me.  I frequently will find and disarm traps before the group enters and attacks the group of enemies in a room, and for that matter you can start a stealthed rogue right next to the enemy mage and take him out before he can do any damage.  The combination of Lethality and the various stunning talents (or poisons) put mages down very quickly

Perhaps another thing worth mentioning is I haven't seen the AI do well where it comes to positioning AI-controlled rogues.  You can pretty much avoid taking direct control of the party's tank 95% of the time if you have done a decent job of organizing their tactics choices.  Since you have to be controlling the rogue to make sure (s)he is behind the enemy or opening locked chests anyway, there's almost a convenience argument to be made in favor of the class over the Warrior (which I will be playing next).  Though I expect players of Mages, which have still more things to do with their time, make the same argument about both melee classes.

[Chihaya]

 bows are NOT useless, try backstabing a high dragon (in hard mode) and you will see my point.
and im not saying that archer skills are usefull ofc but in boss fights you must let the tank to do the dirty job.
for example when i was fighting the brood mother, my rogue was way back with the healer and mage (at the stone so the tentacles cant reach you) she was defending the mages from the horde- then bow and hit the boss and the tank just hittin the ****** ignoring everything else.

[TanithAeyrs]

I have enjoyed playing my rogue so far. My current party is Alistair, Wynne and Zevran and it seems to work pretty well. Rogues do require a little more understanding of how to use them but they are deadly either dual wielding or with a bow. Don't forget to poison your weapons. I use Wynne primarily to heal and buff but I do have her use earthquake to set up for big mobs of enemies. Alistair tanks, of course and Zevran and my rogue do the major damage. Used Sten for a while with Alistair and Morrigan but my character did not like him and she was more effective in battle ( I am usually better at rogue tactics than warrior DPS tactics).

[Haexpane]

I am using Zev w/ poisons.. but isn't DEX still broken?

[rlnoe]

genecor wrote...

OP should mean overpowered if my WoW speak still serves me well

Edit:

P.S. WoW is World of Warcraft in case anyone asks:innocent:

In forum speak it can also refer to the person that started the thread, the Original Poster.

[Ogiwan]

I'm currently going the Elven Ranger archetype, and I have to admit I'm somewhat disappointed by what looks like lukewarm performance by the bow. Sure, the debuff shots are cool and all, but I'm not sure to what degree they're actually effective.



Also, I'm distraught that the slow-mo kills are for melee only.

[Irift001]

I think rogue are pretty gimp myself. The biggest problem is their stat spread. Warriors can easyly put every single point into Str with out and care in the world, AND never fail a intim challange. Mages can easyly put every point into magic with out a care in the wolrd and never fail a mental resis check on top of that. Mind you, they may want to put some points in a secondary stat (some will power or con) but this isn't so with a rogue. First off the only way you'll do decent dammge is dual wielding swords, this requires a large amount of str ( mid 40s) just to equip them, a large amount of dex (mid 30s) to get the talents. Then you'll also have to put some points into will power so you don't run totaly out of stam after 2 attacks. Oh, then guess what if you actually want to be a rogue (open locks disarm traps) you'll neede a HUGE amount of points into Cunn (Upper 60s to do the late game locks/traps) Rogues simply have their stats far to spread out.

[MikeIsGood]

They absolutely do not suck. I was worried about continuing with one given all of the talk about how they've been nerfed and bugged, but I went with it anyways because it made the most sense with the party I want to use (Alistair, Shale, Morrigan/Wynne). Coup de Grace, Momentum, Lethality (as well as some trusty poison) have all led to some huge amounts of damage. And I'm glad that daggers didn't scare me off and lead me to make him a STR rogue like some were suggesting after learning of the nerfing. Daggers + Momentum = never stop attacking.

[Orogun01]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Orogun01 wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Grahamers.. rogues can be just as tough as warriors, to be honest. They can wear the same armor, they can pump stats into constitution.. IMO, it's kind of stupid. Rogues get lots of skills warriors don't but warriors don't really have anything rogues would need... all of the warrior talents are for tanking..

Rogues skills benefit from Dex and cunning, if you spend points trying to make your Rogue into a tank then you are left with neither a good rogue nor a good tank. Rogues deal damage trough backstabbing or from a distance with bows, they are not meant to be front line warriors. Also Rogues don't have a two handed sword nor a shield talent tree, so what were the many skills you are talking about? To put it simply training a rogue on a warrior build makes no sense.

You can be a tank and a good damage dealer. You can just not spend any points in Cunning, dump those into Con instead. Then get a 25% evasion Rogue talent and you're one heck of a tank. Rogues deal damage just like warriors do - BUT they have an ace in their sleeve - the back and face stabbing. Rogues in DA:O can be front line fighters.. in fact, they excel there. Rogues don't have two handed sword nor shield talent trees, yes.. 2H is a waste, it honestly is just bad. Dual wielding does everything much, much better. Shield talents are good for tanking, yes.. but the Rogue's 25% evasion outweights the shield talents or they are at least equal. Plus the rogue will deal more damage because he's dual wielding.

I really don't see it as useful since Rogues don't have the Warrior skill tree that's is specifically made for tanking. They will have a hard time making enemies come to them, besides this does away with their backstab since they will be tanking. More over the build you propose relies to much on evasion, you would need to spend points on str, dex, and con to come up with a good rogue/tank that deals decent amounts of damage. The rogue class wasn't meant to be played as a tank, I don't see anything good coming up from trying to make it so.

[Ryazan]

I've heard they're very, very good at chain stunning. Therefore, you can attack without fear of counter. I know this is in ideal situations, but if you have a good tank, no problem.

[Kwonne]

Against a dragon, you better not try Backstabbing!

[rlnoe]

I plan on playing all 3 classes saving the rogue for last, although it's killing me to leave all of those locked chests behind. I'm wondering if anyone here is planning (or already has) to skip the specializations to be able to get stealth and lockpicking? I'm planning on taking 2 chains in the dual wield school, both dexterity chains in the rogue school, the lockpick chain and at least the first of the stealth chain. Does this sound viable or will I end up gimping myself?

[Direbrute]

dragoaskani wrote...

Direbrute your link just takes us to nonsense page. Though its possible that its acting up because the forum server is being overloaded today and is acting all kinds of weird.

Yeah, I noticed it didn't work so I edited it with the actual link. For some reason the Edit took about 30 minutes to stick. Grr.

Anyway, here's the link for anyone that's interested.

http://dragonage.gul...rity_hotfix_101

Here's what it does: (this change affects NPC combatants as well, so enemy archers are now much more powerful as well)


Experimental hot fix for the following issues:


Daggers now get the shared damage bonus from Dexterity and Strength as intended, not just Strength alone.
Ranged Weapon hit rate increased.
Bow range has been increased by 10m
on all ranged weapons (not staff), reducing the penalties for ranged
shots in most most combat scenarios.
All bows and crossbows now grant a +5 inherit Attack bonus. Note that this bonus is shown on the weapon, it does not factor into the characters Attack displayed score on the character sheet.
[/list] Short bow being useless.
Short bows now get full attribute bonus from Dexterity instead of shared from Strength. This makes them a natural choice for Dexterity focused character builds.
Base Armor Penetration for Shortbows has been increased by 1.
[/list] Ranged weapon damage has been increased:
Damage range on all ranged weapons has been increase from 150% to 160%.
Critical chance bonus on all ranged weapons has been increased by 4%.
Damage bonus from attributes has been increased from 100% to 100/105% for bows and 110% for crossbows.
[/list]

[Haexpane]

Irift001 wrote...

I think rogue are pretty gimp myself. The biggest problem is their stat spread. Warriors can easyly put every single point into Str with out and care in the world, AND never fail a intim challange. Mages can easyly put every point into magic with out a care in the wolrd and never fail a mental resis check on top of that. Mind you, they may want to put some points in a secondary stat (some will power or con) but this isn't so with a rogue.

First off the only way you'll do decent dammge is dual wielding swords, this requires a large amount of str ( mid 40s) just to equip them, a large amount of dex (mid 30s) to get the talents. Then you'll also have to put some points into will power so you don't run totaly out of stam after 2 attacks. Oh, then guess what if you actually want to be a rogue (open locks disarm traps) you'll neede a HUGE amount of points into Cunn (Upper 60s to do the late game locks/traps) Rogues simply have their stats far to spread out.

Key points, every level for the comp rogue I have to debate what to take, for the tank it's obvious... for the mage, it's obvious.. for the rogue it's like "hmm let me see what Gear I have and skills and oh, maybe i need..."

That's kinda cool, but since not all classes need to do that, it's unbalanced... heavily

[Irift001]

Exactly, you basicly have to choose between being decent in combat or doing real rogue stuff

[Inarai]

Scyles wrote...

The warrior starts with a +5 attack bonus over the rogue. Since nearly all weapons are a 50/50 Str/Dex split with regards to attribute bonus to attack, this means that it would take a full 10 stat points just for the rogue to match the warrior's accuracy.

Rogues also gain only a .2 damage bonus per level, while warriors gain a .4. This sucks for rogues.

Actually, that's called balance.  Rogues manipulate the field of combat to their advantage, scoring backstabs and similar that skyrocket their damage in a way that warriors just can't.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Orogun01 wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Orogun01 wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Grahamers.. rogues can be just as tough as warriors, to be honest. They can wear the same armor, they can pump stats into constitution.. IMO, it's kind of stupid. Rogues get lots of skills warriors don't but warriors don't really have anything rogues would need... all of the warrior talents are for tanking..

Rogues skills benefit from Dex and cunning, if you spend points trying to make your Rogue into a tank then you are left with neither a good rogue nor a good tank. Rogues deal damage trough backstabbing or from a distance with bows, they are not meant to be front line warriors. Also Rogues don't have a two handed sword nor a shield talent tree, so what were the many skills you are talking about? To put it simply training a rogue on a warrior build makes no sense.

You can be a tank and a good damage dealer. You can just not spend any points in Cunning, dump those into Con instead. Then get a 25% evasion Rogue talent and you're one heck of a tank. Rogues deal damage just like warriors do - BUT they have an ace in their sleeve - the back and face stabbing. Rogues in DA:O can be front line fighters.. in fact, they excel there. Rogues don't have two handed sword nor shield talent trees, yes.. 2H is a waste, it honestly is just bad. Dual wielding does everything much, much better. Shield talents are good for tanking, yes.. but the Rogue's 25% evasion outweights the shield talents or they are at least equal. Plus the rogue will deal more damage because he's dual wielding.

I really don't see it as useful since Rogues don't have the Warrior skill tree that's is specifically made for tanking. They will have a hard time making enemies come to them, besides this does away with their backstab since they will be tanking. More over the build you propose relies to much on evasion, you would need to spend points on str, dex, and con to come up with a good rogue/tank that deals decent amounts of damage. The rogue class wasn't meant to be played as a tank, I don't see anything good coming up from trying to make it so.

All you need to do is go into the battles first.. AKA just controlling your character. And not have any "Threathen" etc abilities on on other characters. Voila, you're focused. No, you'll still backstab a lot... just get Coup De Grace. It doesn't rely too much on evasion, evasion is just good extra. And if you actually bothered to read my post, I actually said you'd spend points on str, dex and con. Which is perfectly fine.

The rogue would make the best tank as I see it. Good tanking and still very good damage.