266 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Ineffable Igor wrote...

What about a saarebas (mage) LI instead of a qunari or tal'vashoth? THAT would be cool, especially with a mage Hawke. To go from such oppression with regards to magic to complete freedom to use it to aid Hawke would be a very interesting element for a character, not to mention the upgrade from "defective tool" to personhood.

I approve of this idea. Especially considering that mage Hawke is an apostate. This will probably lead to some amusing dialogue.

...Dialogue? They, uh, can't speak. They have their tongues cut out. If he was seperated early enough to keep his tongue, then I imagine he's more Tal-Vashoth than ever a qunari.

You know, I think I'd like to see a Tal-Vashoth mage who believes in the Qun, but simply can't be with them because of the way he'd be treated. Similar to how you can be a devoted Christian but disagree with their stance on homosexuality, or something. It gives room for a qunari that acts like a qunari but has a reason to be on your side if there's a qunari invasion happening.

If a qunari invasion is a plot point for DA2, then it's hard to see why a real qunari would travel with you. I could only see a Tal-Vashoth--but, truth be told, I want to a qunari romance with qunari viewpoints, to a degree. I think what I described up above is ideal to this situation.

[Lord Gremlin]

Saibh wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Ineffable Igor wrote...

What about a saarebas (mage) LI instead of a qunari or tal'vashoth? THAT would be cool, especially with a mage Hawke. To go from such oppression with regards to magic to complete freedom to use it to aid Hawke would be a very interesting element for a character, not to mention the upgrade from "defective tool" to personhood.

I approve of this idea. Especially considering that mage Hawke is an apostate. This will probably lead to some amusing dialogue.

...Dialogue? They, uh, can't speak. They have their tongues cut out. If he was seperated early enough to keep his tongue, then I imagine he's more Tal-Vashoth than ever a qunari.

You know, I think I'd like to see a Tal-Vashoth mage who believes in the Qun, but simply can't be with them because of the way he'd be treated. Similar to how you can be a devoted Christian but disagree with their stance on homosexuality, or something. It gives room for a qunari that acts like a qunari but has a reason to be on your side if there's a qunari invasion happening.

If a qunari invasion is a plot point for DA2, then it's hard to see why a real qunari would travel with you. I could only see a Tal-Vashoth--but, truth be told, I want to a qunari romance with qunari viewpoints, to a degree. I think what I described up above is ideal to this situation.

It's not really clear if all qunari mages have their tongues cut out. I think there's reference to it, something like "should they be spotted performing forbidden magic their tongues are cut out". But the idea of Tal-Vashoth mage sounds appealing. Actually, status of an apostate is not much worse that one of qunari mage. Apostates are simply murdered by templars, with no other options or fair trial. It makes a lot of sense if mage Hawke and her Tal-Vashoth LI will both hate Qun and Chantry. Fits the plot well, I suppose. Chantry in ruin & Qunari invasion.

[Saibh]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

It's not really clear if all qunari mages have their tongues cut out. I think there's reference to it, something like "should they be spotted performing forbidden magic their tongues are cut out". But the idea of Tal-Vashoth mage sounds appealing. Actually, status of an apostate is not much worse that one of qunari mage. Apostates are simply murdered by templars, with no other options or fair trial. It makes a lot of sense if mage Hawke and her Tal-Vashoth LI will both hate Qun and Chantry. Fits the plot well, I suppose. Chantry in ruin & Qunari invasion.

No, I'm pretty sure it's a confirmed dev thing. It's to prevent them from being able to persuade other people should they become abominations. I'm sure also a way to de...qunarize them.

True, but I'd like a Tal-Vashoth mage that believes in the Qun, just for the uniqueness of it. It's easy to have one that hates them and what they stand for, and it's something that would occur naturally to a mage. I'd like to see someone conflicted by their beliefs versus their own personal well-being.

EDIT: Alright, just looked it up. They get their tongues cut out if they're ever seen preforming forbidden magic, which is any magic their handler doesn't order them to do, so it is conceivable. Still, from available view points qunari mages are treated so poorly that I don't think there'd be any rationality in them. They can't even stand straight from their backs being bent by chains all the time.

Modifié par Saibh, 12 septembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[Lord Gremlin]

Well, I agree that idea of a Tal-Vashoth mage who believes in the Qun is very interesting. Gosh, I hope developers will comment in this thread.

[Saibh]

Ineffable Igor wrote...

The bit about the tongues is not necessarily true.  The wiki says "Should [saarebas] ever be seen to perform forbidden magic, their tongues get
cut out to prevent a mage who has been possessed by a demon from
communicating and possibly corrupting someone else".  This and this post by Mary Kirby, seem to say that saarebas only lose their tongues if they perform magic without the expressed order of their handler.  Any well-behaved mage would still have a tongue.

Another interesting thing about a saarebas LI would be finding out how they feel about qunari culture.  They are treated as nothing but useful objects in qunari society, so I expect that they'd have a very different view of the Qun than many.  Would they be resentful or simply accepting of their lot in life?  A saarebas could very well hold to traditional qunari viewpoints rather than feeling bad about their situation.  That's kind of what the Qun is all about, accepting your role in society.  But they are "objects", so maybe they don't feel that anything about the Qun applies to them.  This would such a fascinating addition to this story, even if there's no romance involved.

Yes, I know, I edited the post.

Well, actually, I edited the reply to the reply of that post.

Modifié par Saibh, 12 septembre 2010 - 05:42 .

[Lord Gremlin]

Ineffable Igor wrote...

Another interesting thing about a saarebas LI would be finding out how they feel about qunari culture.  They are treated as nothing but useful objects in qunari society, so I expect that they'd have a very different view of the Qun than many.  Would they be resentful or simply accepting of their lot in life?  A saarebas could very well hold to traditional qunari viewpoints rather than feeling bad about their situation.  That's kind of what the Qun is all about, accepting your role in society.  But they are "objects", so maybe they don't feel that anything about the Qun applies to them.  This would such a fascinating addition to this story, even if there's no romance involved.

Well, we're talking about a saarebas who betrayed qunari, so I'd expect a lot of hate towards qunari, like: "I've been put on a leash and treated like dirt just because I was born such! Ah, sure it's f***ing easy to follow the Qun when you're an elite warrior, you get respect, you assigned to impregnate best women, you consume delicious food... Look, you have any idea how I've been fed? That old cheese and bread we had for dinner today, Hawke, was the tastiest meal in my whole f***ing life. Ah, sure, you're an apostate. You think your life was tough? Sleeping in a bad, eating normal food... You really have no idea how much worse mage's fate in the land of Qun. I feel bad for every saarebas we killed."
Something like this. Because if he accepts his role, he won't betray the Qun and join Hawke.

[Saibh]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Ineffable Igor wrote...

Another interesting thing about a saarebas LI would be finding out how they feel about qunari culture.  They are treated as nothing but useful objects in qunari society, so I expect that they'd have a very different view of the Qun than many.  Would they be resentful or simply accepting of their lot in life?  A saarebas could very well hold to traditional qunari viewpoints rather than feeling bad about their situation.  That's kind of what the Qun is all about, accepting your role in society.  But they are "objects", so maybe they don't feel that anything about the Qun applies to them.  This would such a fascinating addition to this story, even if there's no romance involved.

Well, we're talking about a saarebas who betrayed qunari, so I'd expect a lot of hate towards qunari, like: "I've been put on a leash and treated like dirt just because I was born such! Ah, sure it's f***ing easy to follow the Qun when you're an elite warrior, you get respect, you assigned to impregnate best women, you consume delicious food... Look, you have any idea how I've been fed? That old cheese and bread we had for dinner today, Hawke, was the tastiest meal in my whole f***ing life. Ah, sure, you're an apostate. You think your life was tough? Sleeping in a bad, eating normal food... You really have no idea how much worse mage's fate in the land of Qun. I feel bad for every saarebas we killed."
Something like this. Because if he accepts his role, he won't betray the Qun and join Hawke.

Honestly.

If he acted like that.

I'd hate his guts.

"Look how I was treated, I'm angry! You can't possibly understand the pain and hardship. You've never been through anything like this, and you never will so don't f***ing talk to me." I'd want to punch him in the face. Carth's whining is preferable to that.

I was talking about a Tal-Vashoth that follows the Qun but knows he can't be a part of them because they'd cut his tongue out, leash him, and possibly kill him. While the other qunari would consider him Tal-Vashoth, he sees the benefit in their doctine and believes their ways are superior, are correct. He's not fighting to destroy them, or punish them, but to morph a piece of their beliefs he doesn't find right.

I compared it to a devout Christian homosexual, and I think the comparison holds true: you can strongly believe in Jesus Christ and his teachings and be gay. While some of the people who lead the religion and other faithful couldn't rationalize your existence or your faith, you're not wrong. You can be a part of both, but maybe it wasn't entirely correct by your view.

Modifié par Saibh, 12 septembre 2010 - 06:03 .

[Lord Gremlin]

Saibh wrote...

Honestly.

If he acted like that.

I'd hate his guts.

"Look how I was treated, I'm angry! You can't possibly understand the pain and hardship. You've never been through anything like this, and you never will so don't f***ing talk to me." I'd want to punch him in the face. Carth's whining is preferable to that.

I was talking about a Tal-Vashoth that follows the Qun but knows he can't be a part of them because they'd cut his tongue out, leash him, and possibly kill him. While the other qunari would consider him Tal-Vashoth, he sees the benefit in their doctine and believes their ways are superior, are correct. He's not fighting to destroy them, or punish them, but to morph a piece of their beliefs he doesn't find right.

I compared it to a devout Christian homosexual, and I think the comparison holds true: you can strongly believe in Jesus Christ and his teachings and be gay. While some of the people who lead the religion and other faithful couldn't rationalize your existence or your faith, you're not wrong. You can be a part of both, but maybe it wasn't entirely correct by your view.

See? That's why I suggested that - Bioware has quite a history with whiny character you want to slap. Alistair for example.

"Tal-Vashoth that follows the Qun" sounds odd, really. The question is, however, what Qun actually says about mages. If Qun describes mages as disgusting things etc. etc. I just can't see how a mage can follow the Qun. Christian homosexual is a bad example. Christianity does not propose cutting tongues from homosexuals or killing them.

[Saibh]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

See? That's why I suggested that - Bioware has quite a history with whiny character you want to slap. Alistair for example.

"Tal-Vashoth that follows the Qun" sounds odd, really. The question is, however, what Qun actually says about mages. If Qun describes mages as disgusting things etc. etc. I just can't see how a mage can follow the Qun. Christian homosexual is a bad example. Christianity does not propose cutting tongues from homosexuals or killing them.

...Now they don't. At one point you were burned alive for it. I'm sure when homosexuality was a persecutable crime there were gay Christians. It's simply believing that some portions of the doctrine are right, and others were gotten wrong. They simply have an inability to protest and are otherwise helpless, due to the overwhelming power of the opposite side--that's why this guy might support Hawke.

The Qun word for mage literally mean "dangerous thing". They're not people, they're animals to them. I'm simply saying that a Tal-Vashoth might see the Qun and believe that he has the right to exist. Even the infirm are given a place in qunari society--they can't help being what they are. While caution should obviously be exercised with mages, it would be more akin to the Circle than dogs chained to a leash and muzzled.

[Lord Gremlin]

Saibh wrote...
 While caution should obviously be exercised with mages, it would be more akin to the Circle than dogs chained to a leash and muzzled.

So, Rite of Annulment has been performed how many times? 15 in 700 years or so? There is a codex in game, but I can't just instantly find it (PS3 version). It's not that different, really. Either like dogs on a leash (Qun) or simply murdered altogether at regular intervals (Chantry).
And since we're talking about LI, he also doesn't support Qun in terms of love and breeding, since he's expressing his feelings through sex.

Modifié par Lord Gremlin, 12 septembre 2010 - 06:31 .

[Saibh]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

So, Rite of Annulment has been performed how many times? 15 in 700 years or so? There is a codex in game, but I can't just instantly find it (PS3 version). It's not that different, really. Either like dogs on a leash (Qun) or simply murdered altogether at regular intervals (Chantry).
And since we're talking about LI, he also doesn't support Qun in terms of love and breeding, since he's expressing his feelings through sex.

The difference? Oh, I don't know, keeping your tongue, being allowed to live a life with friends and with relative freedom--certainly better than the casteless or City Elves live--being allowed to study and contribute to your world, to marry, to love. It's not perfect, but there are good, strong reasons why mages cannot go unchecked. Until they invent a better way to keep mages protected or figuring out who is a blood mage, there isn't a whole lot of choice. Surely improvements can be done, but I'm simply saying, if this Tal-Vashoth honestly is working for the betterment of his people, he'd be foolish to suddenly declare all mages free and exempt.

Remember, it was the mages themselves that agreed upon the Circles and became a part of them.

To be fair, the Rite of Annulment is not preformed on all magekind, but on the particular Circle they deem beyond repair. And, as I said, the system isn't perfect.

Absolutely any qunari LI discussed on this thread must have feelings for Hawke, whether they want to or not. That's a given. Maybe they don't want to love you, and feel guilty over deviating further from a doctrine they support. Maybe they take the Judge Frollo route and pretend that they're some sort of absolved exception. Who knows. Maybe he doesn't want to sleep with you.

[WolfShapedBullet]

I think the idea of having a Qunari companion, Mage or no, that has a sort of appreciation for bis peoples beliefs, but doesn't nescessarily agree with all of them is a great...focus? For the character! It adds a certain 'real' depth and grayness to a character other than the PC. I mean, for the most part the characters I've seen so far have an overall black or white belief system. Anything you did that could be deemed 'wrong' would have Alistair disapproving, same with Morrigan and being a 'good' PC. It's not to say that Alistair or Morrigan are lacking in personality, but I have yet to see a character that genuinely acknowledges two sides to a "coin". How thought provoking could it be to meet a Qunari companion who looks at parts of the Qun with appreciation and the other pieces with disapproval?

I think the one thing that could break such a dynamic character would be how to integrate it with the 'approval system'. It's been said as much that we can have hatemances and rivalries; so why not a Qunari who views certain actions taken by Hawke as unproductive (According to the Qun), but from his point as...himself, he sees why it's beneficial, thus resulting in what? QunariCompanion Approves +5 and Disapproves -1? could make for an awkward system. Or they could just as simply put disapproves/approves and then have dialogue as to why...IDK.

Great discussion and thoughts you guys! I particularly like the idea of further inspection of the Qunari Mage via a Qunari Mage companion! And obviously, as seen by my post, Saibh's Qunari viewpoint idea!

Saibh wrote...
Absolutely any qunari LI discussed on this thread must have feelings for Hawke, whether they want to or not. That's a given. Maybe they don't want to love you, and feel guilty over deviating further from a doctrine they support. Maybe they take the Judge Frollo route and pretend that they're some sort of absolved exception. Who knows. Maybe he doesn't want to sleep with you.

I think one of the best things about Garrus's romance in Mass Effect 2 was that, sure they flirted jokingly here and there and it got kind of serious, when they had those few hours just for them it wasn't about the SEX!
 
Romance=/=SEX and for that matter intimacy, the word alone, doesn't equal sex either! That's why they call it sexual intimacy, keyword sexual. Hawke and the Qunari can so much as profess a love for one another, but he can still refuse to share his tent because he feels guilty of what the Qun says mating is only for.  Good point Saibh!

Modifié par Oblivionous, 12 septembre 2010 - 07:58 .

[Lord Gremlin]

Saibh wrote...
Absolutely any qunari LI discussed on this thread must have feelings for Hawke, whether they want to or not. That's a given. Maybe they don't want to love you, and feel guilty over deviating further from a doctrine they support. Maybe they take the Judge Frollo route and pretend that they're some sort of absolved exception. Who knows. Maybe he doesn't want to sleep with you.

Well, in Origins Alistair and Leliana also don't want to sleep with PC at first. But eventually they give up. I smell an interesting emotional crisis with qunari LI.

[WolfShapedBullet]

[EDIT]

Modifié par Oblivionous, 12 septembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[CrookedAsylum]

I don't recall who said it, perhaps it was Anarya in another thread, but someone suggested that Sten was closer to the Warden than he ever would be to someone who ended up in his bed, simply due to the way the Qun is constructed.



I thought that was a very interesting way to look at it and, if true, would add a very deep and emotional relationship that I honestly haven't seen much of in many games. It struck me as very, "connection without words" because the words weren't necessary. And neither are some actions, if the connection was deep enough.

[Saibh]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

I don't recall who said it, perhaps it was Anarya in another thread, but someone suggested that Sten was closer to the Warden than he ever would be to someone who ended up in his bed, simply due to the way the Qun is constructed.

I thought that was a very interesting way to look at it and, if true, would add a very deep and emotional relationship that I honestly haven't seen much of in many games. It struck me as very, "connection without words" because the words weren't necessary. And neither are some actions, if the connection was deep enough.

I wouldn't romance Sten. He was my buddy, and my favorite companion outside of Alistair. I have confidence that if a qunari romance was ever possible, it'd be more than Sten slightly tilting the corner of his lips up and saying "You're like an amazing philospher. 'Gratz."

Since he isn't a romance, clearly his relationship with you won't have those overtones. But, I see what you mean: despite him never coming out and saying what he thinks of you, I certainly felt like I was his friend, more than any other companion--save perhaps Morrigan--in the game. Even Alistair seemed just a bit bland, what with his opening line to friends being "Something on your mind?" in the blandest, most placid tones possible.

[CrookedAsylum]

Saibh wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

I don't recall who said it, perhaps it was Anarya in another thread, but someone suggested that Sten was closer to the Warden than he ever would be to someone who ended up in his bed, simply due to the way the Qun is constructed.

I thought that was a very interesting way to look at it and, if true, would add a very deep and emotional relationship that I honestly haven't seen much of in many games. It struck me as very, "connection without words" because the words weren't necessary. And neither are some actions, if the connection was deep enough.

I wouldn't romance Sten. He was my buddy, and my favorite companion outside of Alistair. I have confidence that if a qunari romance was ever possible, it'd be more than Sten slightly tilting the corner of his lips up and saying "You're like an amazing philospher. 'Gratz."

Since he isn't a romance, clearly his relationship with you won't have those overtones. But, I see what you mean: despite him never coming out and saying what he thinks of you, I certainly felt like I was his friend, more than any other companion--save perhaps Morrigan--in the game. Even Alistair seemed just a bit bland, what with his opening line to friends being "Something on your mind?" in the blandest, most placid tones possible.

Hmm, that's the thing, though. From what little we know of the Qunari, there may be no possible romance as we wish to know it, and the closest-to is a half-quirked smile and a quiet compliment. If that was the case and there were overtones with it to make it obvious, I think it could be both deeply interesting and refreshing.

If it isn't, I'd be curious to see where it goes.

I agree with you on the friendship, though. Sten's felt the most genuine, probably because his was difficult to earn.

On a side note, I have found two pictures. One is of Sten club dancing with the most serious-of-serious expressions on his face, and another with him in S&M gear. Probably in reference to his teasing of Morrigan.

I vote for clubbing Qunari in leather chaps for DA2.

[Saibh]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Hmm, that's the thing, though. From what little we know of the Qunari, there may be no possible romance as we wish to know it, and the closest-to is a half-quirked smile and a quiet compliment. If that was the case and there were overtones with it to make it obvious, I think it could be both deeply interesting and refreshing.

If it isn't, I'd be curious to see where it goes.

I agree with you on the friendship, though. Sten's felt the most genuine, probably because his was difficult to earn.

On a side note, I have found two pictures. One is of Sten club dancing with the most serious-of-serious expressions on his face, and another with him in S&M gear. Probably in reference to his teasing of Morrigan.

I vote for clubbing Qunari in leather chaps for DA2.

That's why I was in favor with the Tal-Vashoth follower of the Qun mage earlier. It allows a medium of each world that doesn't precisely exclude parts that would make the romance work.

If it were a qunari follower of the Qun, I imagine he wouldn't be entirely pleased with feelings for a bas. Which is just draaama~ and boy do I love it. I've said elsewhere that it would be interesting to see how the romance pans out--does he choose you over his doctrine, over his people, over his way of life? Do you let him? Do you, or can you, force him to stay with your pleading? If you let him go, does he come back of his volition? Does he try to convert you--can he convert you? Does it ultimately end tragically (please no), with him being unable to accept who you are, or you being unable to accept him? Do his people reject him?

It goes on like that. I see much potential, which is why I support the idea.

[CrookedAsylum]

Oh, I'm all for micro-drama. It makes me giddy inside. Add in the Qunari invasion, Hawke's position of champion and nobility, and you have a gigantic, lovely mess.



And a saarebas would be lovely, if it was possible.