113 réponses à ce sujet

[Lemonwizard]

So, these are kind of a staple of the Mass Effect forums. Arguments over whether the Paragon or Renegade decision of some mission is better, what's better in general between Paragons and Renegades, all that jazz. Now, I have seen and posted in enough topics of this nature to notice two trends that generally hold true.



1) Renegade fanboys tend to use poorly thought out logic that ignores many details to justify the renegade decision as correct, tunnel visioning on one aspect of the issue.

2) Paragon fanboys tend to completely eschew the very idea of logic and declare the paragon choice to be right simply on the basis that the game gives you blue happy points for doing it so it therefore MUST be right.


Now, I understand why Paragon fanboys do what they do. They're paragon fanboys! They want to be the knight in shining armor who solves every problem in the universe while giving candy to nearby children because it makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside. Naturally, any aspiring goody two-shoes will feel compelled to defend his choices as the morally upright and completely correct thing to do! It's what they want to be, and if somebody suggests that they're not being it that's a problem!



What I don't understand is why Renegades bother with these arguments. Justifying your actions seems really against the overall spirit and idea of playing a renegade in the first place. You're supposed to say "I need to stop the reapers, and anybody who tries to get in the way can go to hell". You don't care about what's right and wrong in small situations, you care about what's going to help you complete your mission, because stopping the reapers is more important than finding NPC 12's cat. That's what the whole point of a Renegade is in the first place! So why do you guys constantly engage in these discussions with Paragons trying to justify anything and everything Renegade Shepard does? It bleeds all the fun out of being a Renegade at all. If you're so worried about doing the right thing, why don't you go back to Paragon? You'd obviously be happier there.

[ki11joy ace]

my main playthrough is paragon, but saved the collector station, which was renegade. it sometimes depends on the situation. though i dont want this thread to become completely about the station choice. that was just an example.



my engineer is near perfectly balanced. kills people he dislikes. saves NPC 12's cat cuz he gets exp for it.



my renegade adapt is my "fail" shep. everyone died. killed every possible ally to him (rachni, wrex, council, etc) for the reaper fight.

[Dean_the_Young]

I like to consider myself neutral, so that I can look down my nose and mock both sides at will.

[Lemonwizard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I like to consider myself neutral, so that I can look down my nose and mock both sides at will.

See, I don't feel any particular need to be neutral to mock somebody, as just because someone has the same opinion as you doesn't necessarily mean they didn't reach their conclusion through stupid thinking.

[Cheese Elemental]

I usually get drawn into alignment arguments, but now I'm just getting tired of them. The amount of vitriol thrown around on this forum is ridiculous.

Why can't we all play nice here? Not even the Halo forums are this bad.

[Moondoggie]

I have two playthroughs that i have gone through with both games FemShep is a Paragon and MaleShep is a Renegade (he's just more comically goofy when he's being a bad ass FemShep sounds like a ****) so i guess i experience both sides of the coin. I have my original playthrough that's more neutral though she still makes more paragon decisions i guess i just went on feel for that one i'm heroic when i need it and a b*****d when the person deserves to die or be cut down to size.

[CaptainZaysh]

Hey Lem

It's for the same reason that Shandepared will argue the opposite position to Jaegerbane on practically any subject you can name.  They both have fundamentally different interpretations of how the universe works. They are not really arguing about whether it was right or wrong to kill the Rachni Queen, they are arguing about who has more correctly interpreted the nature of the universe.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 10 septembre 2010 - 02:52 .

[CaptainZaysh]

There's hope for most of them, Shand. "If you're a young Renegade, you have no heart. If you're an old Paragon, you have no brain."

[Lemonwizard]

Well, right and wrong don't actually exist anyway, so the only reason to feel bad about being heartless would come from the heart.





Don't have one? Problem solved!

[TomHark]

I've played both multiple times and I don't think either of them represents what you would want to see in a SPECTRE. Obviously an intimidating bigot like Renegade Shep would only appeal to a small number of people, but equally I don't think a guy who gives comfort hugs to complete strangers is going to scare off any would be terrorists. I also think that it is rather selfish for the only person who can save the galaxy to be risking his life to save everyone he meets. If he bites it while trying to save Joe Nobody then everyone else suffers in the long run. The neutral path is probably the closest thing to how I would want a SPECTRE to behave; trying to do the best thing for everyone while acknowledging that sacrifices will be necessary.

[Xilizhra]

TomHark wrote...

I've played both multiple times and I don't think either of them represents what you would want to see in a SPECTRE. Obviously an intimidating bigot like Renegade Shep would only appeal to a small number of people, but equally I don't think a guy who gives comfort hugs to complete strangers is going to scare off any would be terrorists. I also think that it is rather selfish for the only person who can save the galaxy to be risking his life to save everyone he meets. If he bites it while trying to save Joe Nobody then everyone else suffers in the long run. The neutral path is probably the closest thing to how I would want a SPECTRE to behave; trying to do the best thing for everyone while acknowledging that sacrifices will be necessary.

I think the only complete stranger Shepard hugs was the mother of the girl whose brain was microwaved by Morinth, and no one else saw that. Also, most of the assignments for Joe Nobody are very small and nonlethal, like moving packages around, or can be undertaken while you're doing something else, like grabbing the Kirosa family archive from the Dantius Towers.
(Plus, I don't think comfort hugs will do much to raise the confidence of the numerous terrorists that Shepard has gunned down.)

[Xilizhra]

Mine has renegade points mostly from the "Show me yours, tough guy" line in Afterlife and incinerating the Weyrloc clanspeaker before he can attack (and helping Liara). Though in my next playthrough, she's probably going to be headbutting Uvenk.

Shandepared wrote...

I find paragon to be selfish because
they are motivated primarily by what makes them feel good. They don't go
after Balak because they'd feel bad if innocents died in the process.
They don't kill the rachni queen because they'd feel bad being
responsible for finalizing the genocide of a species. They don't keep
the collector base because they'd feel guilty using technology that
killed so many people.

Paragon Shepard isn't thinking about the rest of the galaxy, only about him or herself.

Then you have Shepard preaching to Mordin, Tali, and Garrus.

Have I applauded your telepathic powers before? If not, allow me to do so here (even though my Shepard saved the rachni queen because the queen never killed anyone and Shepard's only information about the Rachni Wars was hearsay from over a thousand years ago, blew up the Collector base because increasing Cerberus' power would break the galaxy's cohesion against the Reaper threat by improving the power of a particularly aggressive human faction, and... well, I don't have Bring Down the Sky, so I'm not positive what she would do). Also, I could equally say that Renegade only does everything renagadey because he likes the blood, particularly that of nonhumans.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 10 septembre 2010 - 04:33 .

[Skyblade012]

Now I want an interrupt where Shepard guns down one merc, then turns to the other and gives him a hug, saying "There, there. He made a bad decision, it's not your fault."

[Xilizhra]

The thing is, I don't have that opinion. I'm quite sure that your renegade Shepard does everything renegade-y in good faith, even though it's dragging the galaxy down in my opinion; I respect that. I would, however, appreciate it if you stopped saying that the paragons aren't acting in good faith; we all have the same goal here, it's just that the Paragon way is, in my opinion, better.

[Xilizhra]

Only to the extent that technically, every action anyone ever takes is for the purpose of making them feel good. Paragonitude isn't inherently selfish; I'm rather good at self-knowledge, and I'm quite sure that my Shepard isn't a selfish person (except when it comes to Liara, for whom she'll cross far more lines than is typical for her).

[Xilizhra]

I don't have Bring Down the Sky, so I still can't comment on that. But calling the rachni queen a "biohazard" is going rather far; she's a sapient being who hasn't done anything to hurt anyone. A major feature of the Rachni Wars, stated in the Codex, was the total inability of the Council to communicate with them, so no one knew what their motives were. Considering that they're, y'know, sapient and all, it could have been through aggressive government policy that would no longer exist now because there's only one queen; it's not like we can know, and it's not for us to judge one member of a race because of millenium-old conflicts that included no one living today. Finally, having the gratitude of a race that powerful could be a major asset (and if ME2 is any indication, it is).

Now for the Council. It's a gamble, yes, but look at the battle. The geth fleet consisted solely of a ****load of dropships. The Destiny Ascension wasn't getting owned through superior firepower, precisely; it was being swarmed and couldn't use its main gun, because it wasn't meant to operate alone and Sovereign destroyed its support. Sending in the eight cruisers (not a huge amount, really) has two effects; not only does it save the Ascension and its ten thousand crew, but it takes out a bunch of dropships who might otherwise drop their loads on Shepard and company.

Oh, and Paragon Shepard does get the job done. With fewer casualties. Have you heard the military saying "If it's stupid but it works, it's not stupid?"