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[Reika]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Reika wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Yep the Devs have already said that they are not following the Achitect story line in a recent interview.

Thank the Maker. That storyline irritated me.

It would not have bugged me so much if he had actually shown up for more than two scenes and then after attacking you multiple times suddenly thought you were going to work with him.

Yeah, no kidding. I've always thought if the Architecht or one of his minions actually came up to talk peacefully the way the Messenger did, I would've been inclined to give him a chance to say his piece.

Modifié par Reika, 11 septembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Not enough time was given to develop the Architect at all in Awakeing.

Still would have killed him though.



A walking talking, piece of mutated disease whose plans all nut up dosent really give me warm and fuzzies.

[Reika]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Not enough time was given to develop the Architect at all in Awakeing.
Still would have killed him though.

A walking talking, piece of mutated disease whose plans all nut up dosent really give me warm and fuzzies.

Great description.

[Giggles_Manically]

Reika wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Not enough time was given to develop the Architect at all in Awakeing.
Still would have killed him though.

A walking talking, piece of mutated disease whose plans all nut up dosent really give me warm and fuzzies.

Great description.

What can I say I have a way with words.

Yah his plan sounds nice, but is has so many issues with it I just facepalm by the end.

[RavenousBear]

Am I the only one who thought that during the first encounter with the Architect that he was at one point a Grey Warden who failed to reach the Deep Roads for the Calling? I think that would have added more depth to the story than him being a fortunate darkspawn who was born to resist the songs of the Old Gods.

[Reika]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Reika wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Not enough time was given to develop the Architect at all in Awakeing.
Still would have killed him though.

A walking talking, piece of mutated disease whose plans all nut up dosent really give me warm and fuzzies.

Great description.

What can I say I have a way with words.

Yah his plan sounds nice, but is has so many issues with it I just facepalm by the end.

I think the biggest issue being his assumption (and we all know what that means  ) that the Awakened darkspawn would be reasonable...

[Brockololly]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Not enough time was given to develop the Architect at all in Awakeing.
Still would have killed him though.

A walking talking, piece of mutated disease whose plans all nut up dosent really give me warm and fuzzies.

They totally wasted the Architect in Awakening. If you've read the Calling he is at  least a bit more interesting there what with turning the Wardens into ghouls and all. BioWare seems to want to make these ambiguous villains like TIM or the Architect, yet their plans end up seeming so inept or dastardly that its hard not to dislike them to an extent.

[Giggles_Manically]

Brockololly wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Not enough time was given to develop the Architect at all in Awakeing.
Still would have killed him though.

A walking talking, piece of mutated disease whose plans all nut up dosent really give me warm and fuzzies.

They totally wasted the Architect in Awakening. If you've read the Calling he is at  least a bit more interesting there what with turning the Wardens into ghouls and all. BioWare seems to want to make these ambiguous villains like TIM or the Architect, yet their plans end up seeming so inept or dastardly that its hard not to dislike them to an extent.

Yeah Awakening and ME2 left the same thought for me.
"So I am to trust the former big bad,  even though they really dont inspire trust, and have a stupid plan?"
"Can you guess my answer? It starts with N and ends with O."
If you guessed NO, then you are right!

[TJPags]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The 'best' choice for the future of the Surface with the Architect has to be one made with emphasis going forward, not looking backward. What the Architect did in the past by mistake is far less important than what he aims to do in the future. If you decide on account of personal insult and harm, you can only be as shortsighted as Loghain was about the Orlesians.

It can't even be dismissed as 'Architect darkspawn Architect kill.' The Grey Wardens don't kill Darkspawn simply because they're darkspawn: the Grey Wardens kill Darkspawn because the bestial darkspawn are an undeterrable threat. If the Darkspawn aren't such a threat, don't have to be such a threat, then the Grey Wardens reason for being is in part resolved.

The Architect doesn't succede in sensible diplomatic actions, but he does try. Their ignorance and youth to the world, however, undermine his position, but ignorance of humanity is not a permanent state.


There are good reasons to kill the Architect. A lack of trust that he can do as he says: a fear that he can do what he says, and that it could be even worse. But these are reasons that look forward, at what the Architect can do (or not do) for the non-Blighted races. Killing him for past missteps is reactionary, not visionary.

Oh, I don't know about this.

He fails HUGE diplomatically.  He attacks before talking . . .both at the Vigil, and for your PC in general.  He doesn't try to talk until AFTER he attacks the Vigil, kills/kidnaps all the Orlesian Wardens, and does the same to you.  he only talks when you've got him by the short and curlies . . .which, to me, is just a try to save his own *ss.

So it's more than whether he can do what he says - it's whether he will even TRY to do what he says, combined with IF he can.

There's no reason at all to believe him when he finally decides to half heartedly explain what he's up to - his history shows he's much more likely to return to his beastial, attack first nature.

[DarkSpiral]

Hey Giggles. is there any chance you know where the interview was where the dev said they weren't following up on the Architect? Not that I'm not fine with knowing that possible loose end isn't already been decided on, I'd be interested to read the answer.

[AntiChri5]

A smart monster is simply more dangerous.

[Heimdall]

TJPags wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The 'best' choice for the future of the Surface with the Architect has to be one made with emphasis going forward, not looking backward. What the Architect did in the past by mistake is far less important than what he aims to do in the future. If you decide on account of personal insult and harm, you can only be as shortsighted as Loghain was about the Orlesians.

It can't even be dismissed as 'Architect darkspawn Architect kill.' The Grey Wardens don't kill Darkspawn simply because they're darkspawn: the Grey Wardens kill Darkspawn because the bestial darkspawn are an undeterrable threat. If the Darkspawn aren't such a threat, don't have to be such a threat, then the Grey Wardens reason for being is in part resolved.

The Architect doesn't succede in sensible diplomatic actions, but he does try. Their ignorance and youth to the world, however, undermine his position, but ignorance of humanity is not a permanent state.


There are good reasons to kill the Architect. A lack of trust that he can do as he says: a fear that he can do what he says, and that it could be even worse. But these are reasons that look forward, at what the Architect can do (or not do) for the non-Blighted races. Killing him for past missteps is reactionary, not visionary.

Oh, I don't know about this.

He fails HUGE diplomatically.  He attacks before talking . . .both at the Vigil, and for your PC in general.  He doesn't try to talk until AFTER he attacks the Vigil, kills/kidnaps all the Orlesian Wardens, and does the same to you.  he only talks when you've got him by the short and curlies . . .which, to me, is just a try to save his own *ss.

So it's more than whether he can do what he says - it's whether he will even TRY to do what he says, combined with IF he can.

There's no reason at all to believe him when he finally decides to half heartedly explain what he's up to - his history shows he's much more likely to return to his beastial, attack first nature.

I was under the impression his forces came to the vigil to talk but the grey Warden's attacked on sight and the darkspawn responded with the only ferocity they knew.  As for the Warden, he subdued the Warden so the Warden wouldn't do the same thing the Orlesian's did.  He was going to come back and talk to you but the Warden escaped first.

I let him live on the chance that his darkspawn would be reasonable and try to be less hostile to the other races (Some disciples, like the messenger, are proof that this is possible).  Alternatively, he creates a divided darkspawn that slaughter each other in the deeproads...  Seemed like a good thing.  Perfect desicion without drawbacks?  Not by a longshot but my warden never heard the whole plan to turn everyone into grey wardens.

[Elhanan]

I was going to let him live once to try and save the Elven sister of my newest Warden. But as this yielded nothing but more failure involving this Darkspawn Doc Frankenstein, I changed course and kill him each and every time.

[thesuperdarkone]

Elhanan wrote...

I was going to let him live once to try and save the Elven sister of my newest Warden. But as this yielded nothing but more failure involving this Darkspawn Doc Frankenstein, I changed course and kill him each and every time.

 

The sister can never be saved, but what are you talking about. If you read the epilogue and some dialouge, you see that his research does in fact work, so I don't know where you got your information.

[DarthCaine]

I say side, just to see more "consequences" in future Dragon Age games. However, logically I think intelligent Darkspawn is worse than a Blight

[Elhanan]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

The sister can never be saved, but what are you talking about. If you read the epilogue and some dialouge, you see that his research does in fact work, so I don't know where you got your information.

I did read the epilogue, and success is not mentioned; just a Darkspawn retreat. Is this a success, or may we simply expect more intelligent Alpha's, Broodmother's, Archdemons, etc?

Based on the history of success we are given, this abomination deserves extermination.

[Giggles_Manically]

DarkSpiral wrote...

Hey Giggles. is there any chance you know where the interview was where the dev said they weren't following up on the Architect? Not that I'm not fine with knowing that possible loose end isn't already been decided on, I'd be interested to read the answer.

Its from one of the interviews right before PAX, or the show they were at before it.

Kinda sucks that they wont follow it though.

[thesuperdarkone]

Just a wonder, how many of you who killed the architect also killed avernus.

[Giggles_Manically]

Avernus is trying to make the joining less fatal, and make Wardens better at killing darkspawn.

Both are good ends, however his means are not very nice.



I let him live but make him do things more humanely, may not come up with much but you never know. If he had of said no to that then I would have killed the old coot.



However the Architect is just a self-centered mutated monster whose plans are so full of fail, and have way to many issues for me to even risk trusting him. The worst Avernus can do is try to go back to his old ways, the worst that the architect can do is something I dont want to imagine.

[TJPags]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Just a wonder, how many of you who killed the architect also killed avernus.

I see these somewhat differently.

First, and a HUGE deal to me, Avernus is a GW, the Architect a Darkspawn.  Now, maybe that's racist in some way, but to me, one is a member of my order, the other my orders enemy.  So I admit, Avernus kind of starts ahead, to me.

Second, Avernus was following the orders of his commander.  Not ALWAYS a good excuse for anything, I'm not saying it is, but he seems very willing to continue following orders - this time, mine.  The architect came up with this on his own, so he's the reseach mastermind, AND the procedure mastermind.

Third, as I remember it, Avernus started with volunteers, and moved to more suspect methods later.  The architect, from what we see in game, starts with attacks, and only after we trash his lab wants to move to volunteers (I haven't read th books, so maybe Utha is a pure volunteer, swayed only by words.  I don't know.  In game, we're basically only told her name, and that she used to be a GW).

Finally, as a GW, I can keep an eye on Avernus.  If he disobeys me, I can kill him then - he's at Soldier's Peak, after all.  The Architect - he's off back into the deep roads where I can't get to him easily.  So if I'm wrong about him, it's harder to correct that.

So I spare Avernus, and kill the architect.  And I think there are reasons for them not to be treated the same.

[Reika]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Avernus is trying to make the joining less fatal, and make Wardens better at killing darkspawn.
Both are good ends, however his means are not very nice.

I let him live but make him do things more humanely, may not come up with much but you never know. If he had of said no to that then I would have killed the old coot.

However the Architect is just a self-centered mutated monster whose plans are so full of fail, and have way to many issues for me to even risk trusting him. The worst Avernus can do is try to go back to his old ways, the worst that the architect can do is something I dont want to imagine.

I let Avernus live for much the same reasoning as Giggles. During the course of my conversation with Avernus I did get him to see the error of his ways, so I was willing to give him a chance.

It was the same reasoning why I gave the one blood mage in the tower a chance to redeem herself, she wanted a better life for the mages, but just went about it in a poorly thought out manner.

The Architecht did some horrific things, allowed his followers to do the same, and couldn't or wouldn't understand why people would object. He didn't understand how non-darkspawn did things and he didn't even try to understand, yet demanded we understand him, wanted us to help him. The thought of helping future horrors was something that went totally against the grain, especially for Marlana (my warden) who had just gone through the nightmare of the Blight.

But then again to give y'all an idea of my playstyle, I was halfway through paragon in ME1 & 2 before I got a single renegade point without even trying.

[DarkSpiral]

Avernus was human.  He was a fairly lousy example of humane, and a pretty extreme example of the ends justifying the means, but he was still human.  Furthermore, his victims has all been dead for over a hundred years, he's been keeping the demons contained at Soldier's Peak for just as long, and maybe, just maybe his research would have helped in teh long run if I gave him the time he needed to actually finish it.  If not, well, he himself makes i clear he's physically falling apart and will die soon anyway.  One way or the other, his problem is going to solve itself.

The Architect, regardless if he can talk or not, is a darkspawn.  His existence sickesn the land and people around him.  The fact that Seranni was visibly infected, and yet Velanna was actually willing to side with the Architect, was a break in my suspension of disbelief.  His Disciples are the same.  The problems he'll cause in teh furture (based on the problems he has created in the very recent past) will only get bigger.

So, yeah I spared Avernus, and the killed The Architect.  And except on the occasions I am playing it differently, to see what changes in the rest of the scenario, I always go with those two choices.

[Reika]

DarkSpiral wrote...


The Architect, regardless if he can talk or not, is a darkspawn.  His existence sickesn the land and people around him.  The fact that Seranni was visibly infected, and yet Velanna was actually willing to side with the Architect, was a break in my suspension of disbelief.  His Disciples are the same.  The problems he'll cause in teh furture (based on the problems he has created in the very recent past) will only get bigger.

Velanna had some serious Issues. The fact she was willing to believe that people would just toss aside their weapons the way they were in the Dalish camp made me seriously question her intelligence. And this woman was supposedly the Keeper of her clan, who was charged to maintain the clan's knowledge and wisdom. What I saw of her didn't display much wisdom.

Granted you don't see a lot of other Keepers, just Zathrian and Marethari (from the Dalish elf origin), both seemed to display the wise, or at least capable of rational though, leader. Not that Zathrian didn't have issues himself, but he wasn't a spikey ball of pure rage and ****ty attitude.

[SirEuain]

Edit: Disregard. Note to self: read the thread, then post.

Modifié par SirEuain, 12 septembre 2010 - 12:45 .

[wickedgoodreed]

Reika wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...


The Architect, regardless if he can talk or not, is a darkspawn.  His existence sickesn the land and people around him.  The fact that Seranni was visibly infected, and yet Velanna was actually willing to side with the Architect, was a break in my suspension of disbelief.  His Disciples are the same.  The problems he'll cause in teh furture (based on the problems he has created in the very recent past) will only get bigger.

Velanna had some serious Issues. The fact she was willing to believe that people would just toss aside their weapons the way they were in the Dalish camp made me seriously question her intelligence. And this woman was supposedly the Keeper of her clan, who was charged to maintain the clan's knowledge and wisdom. What I saw of her didn't display much wisdom.

Granted you don't see a lot of other Keepers, just Zathrian and Marethari (from the Dalish elf origin), both seemed to display the wise, or at least capable of rational though, leader. Not that Zathrian didn't have issues himself, but he wasn't a spikey ball of pure rage and ****ty attitude.

In defense of Velanna, I'd have serious issues too if I was the sole survivor of my tight-knit clan. How horrible would that be to find them all dead? Grief can cloud one's ability to make good decisions. It's obvious she loves her sister very much and she's the only family Velanna really has left. Though it doesn't justify her actions and behavior, I think her being in denial and refusing to let her sister go makes sense in a sad way.