212 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

I'd like to side the Architect. He would look smashing in vinyl.

[Reika]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

In defense of Velanna, I'd have serious issues too if I was the sole survivor of my tight-knit clan. How horrible would that be to find them all dead? Grief can cloud one's ability to make good decisions. It's obvious she loves her sister very much and she's the only family Velanna really has left. Though it doesn't justify her actions and behavior, I think her being in denial and refusing to let her sister go makes sense in a sad way.

True enough, I tend to forget that I'm a cold hearted jerk compared to most people. When there's a problem I tend to try to analyze the situation rather than go all emotional.

I agree that grief can do funny things to people, but I guess I just can't agree to them going that insane.

[Blacklash93]

Elhanan wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

The sister can never be saved, but what are you talking about. If you read the epilogue and some dialouge, you see that his research does in fact work, so I don't know where you got your information.

I did read the epilogue, and success is not mentioned; just a Darkspawn retreat. Is this a success, or may we simply expect more intelligent Alpha's, Broodmother's, Archdemons, etc?

You can't make an Archdemon more intelligent. The Architect's joining doesn't make Darkspawn smarter directly, it simply allows for intelligence to grow with the removal of the Old Gods mind-numbing influence. An Archdemon already thinks for itself.

Anyway... If you let the Architect go, frankly, it's up to the newly sentient Darkspawn to decide whether that was a good or bad choice. It's a huge leap of faith. There are other unknown variables that make the decision even more complicated.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:07 .

[NocturnalRite]

I sided with the Architect simply because it seemedlike a good idea at the time since he said he'd help me kill The Mother, which was a bad move on my part. The Architect's experiments are far too dangerous to let them continue because if they work you have intelligent Darkspawn that have no idea how the world works or you get Darkspawn that go ape s***t. On top of that he could possibly start another Blight or something just as bad if the experiment works on the Old God. That paired with the darkspawns need for Broodmothers to reproduce and the fact that The Architect's experiments rely on Grey Warden blood you'r not going to be getting to many people that are sympathetic to the Darkspawns plight.

If you kill him you eliminate the chances for insane Darkspawn that would lead to a civil war that may or may not boil over to reach the surface world and a smaller chance that his experiments work on an Old God which would lead to something similar to the blight since they wouldn't be too happy about the whole Maker imprisoning them thing. On the other hand there will eventually be another Blight or two depending on wether the sixth one fails or not, and who's to say the Darkspawn won't change after the last Old God is dead? It basically all boils down to the fact that bad stuff is going to happen no matter what and the other races will always hate the Darkspawn.

As for Velanna she was exiled from her clan and only a few others went with her because they were just as poed at humans as she was. Seranni went along to try to get Velanna to change her mind, only to end up abducted by darkspawn. Velanna is so obsessed with finding her sister because she feels responsible for what happened to her.

Modifié par NocturnalRite, 12 septembre 2010 - 06:19 .

[Elhanan]

No unknown variables for myself; Darkspawn are best when not able to move anymore.

[Merilsell]

My Grey Warden Motto: Only a dead Darkspawn is a good Darkspawn.

Go figure what that now means for the architect...

[Lord Gremlin]

Sadly, Architects intention aren't fully explained in Awakening. The point is, there is no real reason to side with him. He's a darkspawn and he will do what's best for darkspawn. Which includes conquering other races and party turning them to ghouls, party keeping them as slaves to breed future broodmothers.

[DarkSpiral]

Reika wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...


The Architect, regardless if he can talk or not, is a darkspawn.  His existence sickesn the land and people around him.  The fact that Seranni was visibly infected, and yet Velanna was actually willing to side with the Architect, was a break in my suspension of disbelief.  His Disciples are the same.  The problems he'll cause in teh furture (based on the problems he has created in the very recent past) will only get bigger.

Velanna had some serious Issues. The fact she was willing to believe that people would just toss aside their weapons the way they were in the Dalish camp made me seriously question her intelligence. And this woman was supposedly the Keeper of her clan, who was charged to maintain the clan's knowledge and wisdom. What I saw of her didn't display much wisdom.

Granted you don't see a lot of other Keepers, just Zathrian and Marethari (from the Dalish elf origin), both seemed to display the wise, or at least capable of rational though, leader. Not that Zathrian didn't have issues himself, but he wasn't a spikey ball of pure rage and ****ty attitude.

She was the Keeper's First, not yet the actual Keeper, but other than that: Very true!  Very true indeed.  Hence her exile from the clan; in fact she herslef admits (in yet another example of the chip on her shoulder being knocked off) to the Warden, in Amaratnthine, that her Keeper had warned her that she would destroy the clan as she was, had she become Keeper.  It one of the responses you can get from the dialouge that clicking on the tree (near the Chantry) nets you.

[Collider]

So, no one sided with the Architect and didn't regret it?

[DarkSpiral]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Sadly, Architects intention aren't fully explained in Awakening. The point is, there is no real reason to side with him. He's a darkspawn and he will do what's best for darkspawn. Which includes conquering other races and party turning them to ghouls, party keeping them as slaves to breed future broodmothers.

Yes, let's not forget the broodmothers.  THAT alone should have sent Velanna in to screaming fits about getting Serrani away from the Architect.  She's already infected, if she gets any worse she'll become a Shriek broodmother.

In fact, we may very well damn her to this fate by killing the Architect, and thus (maybe) removing whatever was keeping Utha and Seranni from becoming ghouls.  Sucks, a lot.  But not as bad as what is already demonstrated to happen as a result of the Architect's Reversed Joining.

[DarkSpiral]

Collider wrote...

So, no one sided with the Architect and didn't regret it?

The ending spilogue leaves it appropriately vague, so the Warden that sided with him didn't regret it.  The Architect disappears, taking the Discilpes with him, and the Dark Roads are quiter than they have been in centuries.  All my suppositions are based on OOC stuff.


EDIT: I mean my Warden, of course.  In this case, a human Noble named Bruce.  Just in case that needed to be said

Modifié par DarkSpiral, 12 septembre 2010 - 08:18 .

[spottyblanket]

Always say yes to new companions. They may be interesting.;..

[Reika]

DarkSpiral wrote...

She was the Keeper's First, not yet the actual Keeper, but other than that: Very true!  Very true indeed.  Hence her exile from the clan; in fact she herslef admits (in yet another example of the chip on her shoulder being knocked off) to the Warden, in Amaratnthine, that her Keeper had warned her that she would destroy the clan as she was, had she become Keeper.  It one of the responses you can get from the dialouge that clicking on the tree (near the Chantry) nets you.

My bad, I generally avoided talking with her as much as possible. From my Warden's viewpoint, she only took Velanna along to keep an eye on her, and allowed her the Joining hoping that this time it would prove fatal. Alas Velanna survived.

And it's not that Marlana, my Warden, had issues with elves, she saw them the same way she did humans and dwarves: people. In fact she had a great deal of respect for Lanaya, Valendrian and Shianni, even for Zathrian. Had she encountered Velanna first, she probably would've had a much more negative opinion.

As for Utha and Seranni turning, Utha apparently was with the Architect for a long time if I understand the timeline correctly so she was just kept at the semi-ghoul stage. I don't think even the Architect was eager to try awakening another broodmother, so he was likely going to keep Seranni at the same stage as Utha. I got the impression that Seranni was resigned to what was happening since she had the opportunity to stay with her sister and the Warden.

That or she saw this as an opportunity to get away from her sister. I've had some pretty rotten relatives, so can understand how being the darkspawn might be better.

[Greed1914]

I wanted to since it was a chance to totally end the Blight cycle. However, I wasn't convinced that it was necessary since the cycle was already tampered with thanks to Morrigan. Also, the results of his experiments troubled me. He made the Mother, who was no better than an Archdemon. She controlled Darkspawn and attacked people. Plus, what if the sentient Darkspawn don't follow the Architect's lead? After all, some chose the Mother. Finally, look at Utha and Seranni. Utha wanted to kill her fellow Wardens and could only communicate with the Architect, and Seranni went from helping her sister to helping Darkspawn in no time. While the cycle wasn't perfect, at least it was known how to deal with a regular Blight.

It also doesn't help that several in your party have massive disapproval of helping him, some to the point of turning hostile.  It seemed like a waste to be trying to build the Wardens, then kill my recruits.

Modifié par Greed1914, 13 septembre 2010 - 10:30 .

[thesuperdarkone]

Collider wrote...

So, no one sided with the Architect and didn't regret it?

 

I sided with him and don't regret it one bit. While there may be problems, I see the possible benefits outweighing the risks. No blights means no more heroes to take my fame away . But seriously though, I can see possible good coming from this as some darkspawn could become good and thus teach fellow darkspawn how to be good, which will lead to less death. About broodmothers: a thread said that darkspawn don't possibly age, so no more need to get more females, they have enough broodmothers already. P.S. Tali sucks.

[Giggles_Manically]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Collider wrote...

So, no one sided with the Architect and didn't regret it?

 

I sided with him and don't regret it one bit. While there may be problems, I see the possible benefits outweighing the risks. No blights means no more heroes to take my fame away . But seriously though, I can see possible good coming from this as some darkspawn could become good and thus teach fellow darkspawn how to be good, which will lead to less death. About broodmothers: a thread said that darkspawn don't possibly age, so no more need to get more females, they have enough broodmothers already. P.S. Tali sucks.

[TJPags]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Collider wrote...

So, no one sided with the Architect and didn't regret it?

 

I sided with him and don't regret it one bit. While there may be problems, I see the possible benefits outweighing the risks. No blights means no more heroes to take my fame away . But seriously though, I can see possible good coming from this as some darkspawn could become good and thus teach fellow darkspawn how to be good, which will lead to less death. About broodmothers: a thread said that darkspawn don't possibly age, so no more need to get more females, they have enough broodmothers already. P.S. Tali sucks.

Yup - because we saw how well the "good" Architect controlled the intelligent darkspawn he made already, and the good deeds they did.

World don't need more of them.

[Iliumdawson]

DarkSpiral wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Sadly, Architects intention aren't fully explained in Awakening. The point is, there is no real reason to side with him. He's a darkspawn and he will do what's best for darkspawn. Which includes conquering other races and party turning them to ghouls, party keeping them as slaves to breed future broodmothers.

Yes, let's not forget the broodmothers.  THAT alone should have sent Velanna in to screaming fits about getting Serrani away from the Architect.  She's already infected, if she gets any worse she'll become a Shriek broodmother.

In fact, we may very well damn her to this fate by killing the Architect, and thus (maybe) removing whatever was keeping Utha and Seranni from becoming ghouls.  Sucks, a lot.  But not as bad as what is already demonstrated to happen as a result of the Architect's Reversed Joining.

at one point the Architect said something to Utha about us being her Comrades, so I am led to believe Utha may have actually been a Grey Warden and thus could not become a Ghoul.
but yeah I totally had no reserves about kicking the Architects ass. We stopped 5 blights so far, we can handle two more.

[DarkSpiral]

Iliumdawson wrote...

at one point the Architect said something to Utha about us being her Comrades, so I am led to believe Utha may have actually been a Grey Warden and thus could not become a Ghoul.
but yeah I totally had no reserves about kicking the Architects ass. We stopped 5 blights so far, we can handle two more.

The Architect tells you thatshe was a Grey Warden, right before you tackle The Mother.  So yes.

Utha's allaince with The Achitect occurs in one of the books David Gaider wrote: "The Calling."  I haven't read it yet, but from what other peole have said, The Architect does in fact make most of the Grey Wardens that feature in that novel into ghouls, or something very close to a ghoul, to prefect his reversed Joining.  That thrid party info, obviously, so it may or may notbe accurate, but it was the understanding I've operated on.

[Ydwros]

History teech us that if you let 1 go will come back stronger and more well prepared, in addition the Architect is smart, can organize and make plans, he is capable to plot far beyond you can imagine and except all that he also knows tons of staff that you are completely anaware of, side with him is against the Mother is clever for the moment but not Wise for the future...

[jpdipity]

***BOOK SPOILERS***



Utha joined the Architect in "The Calling." Cailan was 5 at the time; so, she's been with him for about 20 years. She was a Grey Warden, but was first a Silent Sister and uses gestures to communicate with others. Although it almost appears as if the Architect can read her thoughts in the game. In "The Calling," The Architect and his conspirator sped up the rate of corruption in Utha unnaturally through magic.

After having her corruption advanced to point where she was hearing the calling, she believed in his plan and joined forces with him.  They do not become ghouls. They hear the calling, developed flesh sores, healing ability of the darkspawn and reach the point of looking like a darkspawn. Unlike darkspawn or ghouls, they can still talk and reason, but it seems as if their judgement is now clouded somehow. They are described as being neither Human or Darkspawn, but something in between.

His plan in the book is not the same as his plan in Awakening.

Modifié par jpdipity, 15 septembre 2010 - 11:00 .

[Reika]

As another poster said, aside from my issues with the Architect, it comes down to the darkspawn needing broodmothers to continue their "races".



No, just, no.

[Blacklash93]

Reika wrote...

As another poster said, aside from my issues with the Architect, it comes down to the darkspawn needing broodmothers to continue their "races".

No, just, no.

Darkspawn are ageless and require no nutrition. They don't need to reproduce when they're not all dying like in a Blight. If they stayed isolated underground everyone would be fine and their disease wouldn't spread... but that probably wouldn't happen.

Still, there are some unknown variables.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 16 septembre 2010 - 01:12 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Reika wrote...

As another poster said, aside from my issues with the Architect, it comes down to the darkspawn needing broodmothers to continue their "races".

No, just, no.

Darkspawn are ageless and require no nutrition. They don't need to reproduce when they're not all dying like in a Blight. If they stayed isolated underground everyone would be fine and their disease wouldn't spread... but that probably wouldn't happen.

Still, there are some unknown variables.

While darkspawn dont die from old age, whats to keep them from dying in accidents?
Or if a war broke out between them ala Awakening again?

Darkspawn arent going to go and live in some happy commune and make potholders if you spare the architect. All it takes is one single slip up and they will cause pain for other races.

Im with Sigrun on this "time to take out the trash"

[MKDAWUSS]

Anyone interested in a Blight where darkspawn use advanced military tactics instead of mindless full frontal zergs? That's all I see coming from the Architect's plan...