212 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If the death of the old gods is going to make the darkspawn smart anyways

Where did you find this out?

The whole point of the Architect's ritual is to make the darkspawn immune to the call or song.
According to the Architect, that is the only thing keeping the darkspawn in their current state.

No old Gods = no song.
This should mean that the darkspawn would be freed if all the old Gods die. In fact, the Architect says in his journal that he should have killed it, "it" probably referring to Urthermiel. But he presumably tried to make the old god immune to the taint.  

I don't know if this is fact and set in stones. But this is how I thought about it when I made that choice.
Defiantely seems like a likely possibility.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 septembre 2010 - 10:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I side with Dean on this. If the death of the old gods is going to make the darkspawn smart anyways, I'd rather give them time to develop and mature into a people (with the possibility of compeltely preventing oe or two blights) rather than have them become smart all of a sudden in a middle of a war with all the other species wanting them dead when the last old God dies. That's actually quite dangerous.

And about smart darkspawn being dangerous. Sure, they are. But I think a mindless horde that can't show fear, hesitation, can't disobey, can't have indepedent thought and can't be negotiated with, to be more frightening than a people who can show fear, can be bribed, can hesitate and question and can show and develop a sense of what's right and wrong.

About the disease, the Architect can protect Armas, the Qunari merchant. The taint can be contained. Biggest problem is broodmothers however, but as Dean said, freed darkspawn may not be compelled to create them, unless they need numbers (as in if we go to war with them).

All in all however, this choice is mostly irrelevent. If the architect dies, he is replaced by others, namely the Seeker who actually seemingly more cunning that the Architect.

We should form of club of like-minded people.

[Costin_Razvan]

Knight: I suppose so....but I would like to figure how you do not see the Darkspawn marching to the surface once the Song ends.

[Herr Uhl]

Well, if every blight takes another couple of centuries, the humans/qunari/dwarves/elves ought to be better prepared. Unless Thedas is completely stagnant. Gunpowder could make a world of difference.



Is Thedas equipped for taking care of intelligent darkspawn now? Sure, it may seem like damning future generations and causing two more bights, but it isn't that far fetched to reason that way.

[Dean_the_Young]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Knight: I suppose so....but I would like to figure how you do not see the Darkspawn marching to the surface once the Song ends.

If the Disciples don't do so on their own before then, why would they after?

The non-sentient darkspawn are the greater worry, but the Disciples are the most likely mitigating influence on them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Dean.
Indeed.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Knight: I suppose so....but I would like to figure how you do not see the Darkspawn marching to the surface once the Song ends.

They could. But migrations, expansions and all that are generally based on internal lackings. As in vis a vis ressources, space, infrastructure to support a population boom...etc.

the darkspawn don't seem to need that much ressources, they survive in the deep roads and are huge in numbers. They seemingly don't need to eat or eat as much as we.  And the deep roads is huge, so they won't be running out of space anytime soon and yes, unfortunately the dwarves will have to share the deep roads and move on.
So I don't see it likely. The darkspawn have always lived underground and they would know that it keeps them safe from those on the surface who probably want to kill them.

Now could they go to the surface? Definately a possibility, everything's possible. But they will not be compelled to do so by an archdemon.

For the same reason why the dwarves were never interested in the surface, I can see the darkspawn never being interested in it either.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 septembre 2010 - 11:07 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Well, if every blight takes another couple of centuries, the humans/qunari/dwarves/elves ought to be better prepared. Unless Thedas is completely stagnant. Gunpowder could make a world of difference.

Well the Tevinter Imperium was more equipped than Thedas now via magic and other elements like logistics (imperial highways) and they barely won.
Thedas could regress.

[Giggles_Manically]

Two things I will point out:

The chantry will fall in time, when modernization, and secularization begin to rise the chantry will see its power and support wane and collapse. When leaders like Bhelen and Celene start to emerge the Chantry will down slide into oblivion like all organized religions have seen. Small scale and personal religion don though.



Also are bickering is pointless the devs already said that in DA2 they wont be following the Architects story anymore. GMAM to try and find it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Also are bickering is pointless the devs already said that in DA2 they wont be following the Architects story anymore. GMAM to try and find it.

Oh they did?
I am not surprised at all byt this, but did they officially say that Awakening was basically for nothing?

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Also are bickering is pointless the devs already said that in DA2 they wont be following the Architects story anymore. GMAM to try and find it.

Oh they did?
I am not surprised at all byt this, but did they officially say that Awakening was basically for nothing?

I cant remeber the exact quote but some stuff like the Amaranthine/Keep choice, and maybe the peasent rebellion will get referenced. But no the devs said flat out no continuation to the architect story.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That's a shame, the Architect and the whole Awakening concept had potential.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's a shame, the Architect and the whole Awakening concept had potential.

Yah Awakening js not really that awsome to me.
If it had been about the architect more and not just some dungeon crawl we didnt need it would have been better.

That being said I loved Justice, Sigrun, Nate, and Anders.
Also  Senechal Veral was made of win.

[MKDAWUSS]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That's a shame, the Architect and the whole Awakening concept had potential.

Probably his life or death possessed too strong a variable.

[Dean_the_Young]

There's a difference between 'not following the Architect's story' and 'not relevant'. All it means is that the Architect won't be a significant element of the plot, but then again DA2 isn't following the Warden's story either but the import will still take into account your Warden's actions.



It doesn't mean that there won't be Darkspawn or Disciples or that your choice with the Architect will have no effect (though, like most import choices, it will probably be minor and references). It really just means the Architect won't be there.

[SOLID_EVEREST]

*Spoilers Ahead--For Fallout as well (not 3)--*





I didn't side with the Architect because having darkspawn have the ability to organize at any point in time is just troubling. The Architect couldn't even control his experiements properly I mean he did create "the Mother" after all. How many failed experiments would there be before we finally decide that his research is too dangerous. What if he created more than one "Mother" then where would Amaranthine be...



I mean he summed up his whole flawed idea when we met. He said that (to paraphrase) "we can't control our instincts like you can't control yours," which shows that the darkspawn will never/can never be a friendly tribe/group. I mean there just isn't a place for the darkspawn in that world. We already have dwarfs, elfs, and humans that bearly even trust one another.



On another note, he kind of reminded me of the Master from Fallout, but he just wasn't as bent on ruling over his kind. I shut down the Master with ease, so I didn't mind shutting down the Architect. I just wish there was a persuasion to show that his experiments were too dangerous.

[Dougal Meatshanks]

I sided with the architect and didn't regret it. the Dark spawn are human/dwarven etc that have been mutated and carry a disease. It's not their fault they were born that way. I wouldn't kill someone because they carried a communicable disease into my community.

Having intelligent dark spawn allows for the option of them not fighting humanity. If they DO then they are no different to the Q'nari, or the Teveniter - a civilisation that fights other civilisations. Fereldan was conquered by the Orlesians as well. The Darkspawn are under the most powerful blood magic around. Their minds are not their own. We kill the blood mage and not the victim, the same should apply to the darkspawn.

As for the Broodmothers, well obviously that's not cool. But then, Avvars raiding into Fereldan to abduct women (Viking Style) isn't exactly 'cool' either. Being forced to bear someone's children against your will is horrible. That there is a tangible body horror associated with it in the form of the taint transformation increases the violation.

But we don't accept abduction and rape in society, so what's the problem? It would be no different to telling the Tevinter to jog on.

In all cases the free thinking darkspawn reduce the chance of blight and taint whilst also being capable of following common law between countries. Instead of slaughtering them at will, they would only be fought if they did something wrong, the same way any other kingdom would be. We don't slaughter all the Orlesians because they conquered us.

There is far too much prejudice wrapped up in the darkspawn that no one looks at the situation logically. They are no different to blood magic controlled lepers. Sever the connection and leave them to their own devices.

People espouse genocidal policies in regards to the darkspawn when they do something no different to another kingdom. Dehumanising is a common aspect of warfare, to justify murdering people. If anything, I would hold the Orlesians far more accountable for their actions than the darkspawn. They did it for material gain and greed, they actually had the choice NOT to invade Fereldan. The Darkspawn did not. Yet the darkspawn are treated worse than free thinking bastards. Why? Because they carry a disease and.... religious persection.

The chantry declares the darkspawn the result of man's original sin and thus removes any moral quandry form killing them. The Chant says so, so it's ok. We don't KNOW that this is true, but due to this religious indoctrination Thedas is morally ablidged and forgiven for killing them.

Reminds me of the werewolf thing - if the darkspawn did truly originate from sinning humans (assuming the maker is real) then the current darkspawn are not to blame for the primogenitors' mistakes yet are still being punished for them. Did we forgive the werewolves because they aren't the actual perpetrators of the original crime? Given freedom of thought the darkspawn can be as violent as they were, or not. But that's no different than the way Humans, Elves or Dwarves act in the world anyway.

Dougal

Modifié par Dougal Meatshanks, 25 septembre 2010 - 01:41 .

[Obadiah]

Just gonna respond randomly to some of these...

Avilia wrote...

Kill him.

I don't tend to overanalyse my in game decisions. I've not read the books so base my decisions purely on what is presented to me when I play.

I have a question I've pondered that those more knowing might answer:

Its the 'singing' of the old gods that stops the Darkspawn from being sentient, yes? The Mother laments the loss of the song. Once the all the old gods are gone the darkspawn should become sentient on their own, shouldn't they? Or am I missing something. (er perhaps a bit OT for this....sorry)

Reika wrote...
...
I think the biggest issue being his assumption (and we all know what that means ) that the Awakened darkspawn would be reasonable...

* BOOK SPOILER * In The Calling The Architect states that he thinks that if the Darkspawn are freed of the song of the Old Gods, they will swarm, tear each other apart with infighting, then attack the human again once they have found a leader - probably because their lifecylce is parasitic. However, there is no chance for peace with the Darkspawn if they are slaves to the Old Gods. That is why the Architect's first goal is to free them from the Song. His original plan was to use the locations of the Archdemons (apparently known to senior Grey Wardens who don't know where the information came from) to find and kill them. Clearly his plan changed in the 20+ years between the Calling and Origins.

As a Darkspawn himself, obviously the Architect doesn't want the darkspawn wiped out.

Giggles_Manically wrote...
...
A walking talking, piece of mutated disease whose plans all nut up dosent really give me warm and fuzzies.

* BOOK SPOILER * No kidding. Without The Architect, there will be 2 more Blights. But with The Architect... I mean... his plan in The Calling to have peace was to taint every human everywhere with a massive mortality rate so the Darkspawn don't attack the survivors, and they can co-exist. Not exactly the happiest ending. I don't think he took into consideration that his plan would wipe out the Darkspawn eventually since the tainted surviving females don't turn into Brood Mothers (see Utha).

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

They totally wasted the Architect in Awakening. If you've read the Calling he is at  least a bit more interesting there what with turning the Wardens into ghouls and all. BioWare seems to want to make these ambiguous villains like TIM or the Architect, yet their plans end up seeming so inept or dastardly that its hard not to dislike them to an extent.

Yeah Awakening and ME2 left the same thought for me.
...

I agree. This is off topic but in fact it is almost like there was an initial agreed upon story that got corrupted (either by bad writing or time constraints) to simplicity. That happens in at least two the the main recruitment quests in the Origin campaign - the Elves and Redcliff. In both it looks like there is some complex compromise that the Warden will have to reach with no good options, and in then end, with enough basic dialag choices everyone is happy. Zathrian just ends the curse without even a decent pursuade check. It is especially obvious in the case of Connor when you leave him possessed in the castle, and return to save him later and find that nothing has changed.

Blacklash93 wrote...

Reika wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Reika wrote...

As another poster said, aside from my issues with the Architect, it comes down to the darkspawn needing broodmothers to continue their "races".

No, just, no.

Darkspawn are ageless and require no nutrition. They don't need to reproduce when they're not all dying like in a Blight. If they stayed isolated underground everyone would be fine and their disease wouldn't spread... but that probably wouldn't happen.

Still, there are some unknown variables.

Hm, not sure about the no nutrition part. It's commented on that they eat the flesh of the dead. Like that particularly charming cutscene with our first encounter with an ogre in the Tower of Ishal.

Gaider also said it's not for nutrition, just for, umm... recreation. Possibly under the Archdemon's influence.

Things to consider:

-What will happen to the Darkpawn after the 7 Blights? Will they all still become disciples anyway? Will some go crazy like the Mother? Is it better for the Darkspwn to evolve over time under the supervision of the Architect instead of opting for that ?

-What will the Darkspawn do with free will? Invade the surface? Try to come to the suface, but infect everything? Keep to themselves forever in the Deep Roads?

In The Calling the corrupted wardens don't go hungry. They say they are sustained by the taint.

But what sustains the taint? In fact, what the heck is a Darkspawn? I don't buy the Chantry explanation - I think it has something to do with that Dragon/Cultist symbiosis. Maybe in Thedas humans are meant to be slaves of High Dragons the way Darkspawn are slaves of the Archdemon? Maybe there is a whole Darkspawn civilization underneath the lower deep roads that goes about it's business just a pretty as you please, and the ones we are fighting are just their Archdemon enslaved cultists?

Modifié par Obadiah, 25 septembre 2010 - 06:59 .

[Reika]

Obadiah wrote...
In The Calling the corrupted wardens don't go hungry. They say they are sustained by the taint.

But what sustains the taint? In fact, what the heck is a Darkspawn? I don't buy the Chantry explanation - I think it has something to do with that Dragon/Cultist symbiosis. Maybe in Thedas humans are meant to be slaves of High Dragons the way Darkspawn are slaves of the Archdemon? Maybe there is a whole Darkspawn civilization underneath the lower deep roads that goes about it's business just a pretty as you please, and the ones we are fighting are just their Archdemon enslaved cultists?

Interesting, I should pick up the two books at some point then. Sounds like could be good reading.

And I don't buy the Chantry version in its entirety. I can believe the magisters did rip open the veil though. Did they physicially pass through, who knows. But there is always the Black City in the distance whenever you're in the Fade. What if the Black City has always been that way and the magisters didn't corrupt it, but it corrupted them?

[Obadiah]

Reika wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
In The Calling the corrupted wardens don't go hungry. They say they are sustained by the taint.

But what sustains the taint? In fact, what the heck is a Darkspawn? I don't buy the Chantry explanation - I think it has something to do with that Dragon/Cultist symbiosis. Maybe in Thedas humans are meant to be slaves of High Dragons the way Darkspawn are slaves of the Archdemon? Maybe there is a whole Darkspawn civilization underneath the lower deep roads that goes about it's business just a pretty as you please, and the ones we are fighting are just their Archdemon enslaved cultists?

Interesting, I should pick up the two books at some point then. Sounds like could be good reading.

And I don't buy the Chantry version in its entirety. I can believe the magisters did rip open the veil though. Did they physicially pass through, who knows. But there is always the Black City in the distance whenever you're in the Fade. What if the Black City has always been that way and the magisters didn't corrupt it, but it corrupted them?

Is there any Magi (or other) coroborating documentation on the Golden City, so that we know it was actually tainted black?

[Reika]

Obadiah wrote...


Is there any Magi (or other) coroborating documentation on the Golden City, so that we know it was actually tainted black?

Not that I'm aware of. Because I believe even with your first meeting with Wynne she says "According to the chantry" about the Golden City being tainted.

My pet theory is the Golden City and Black were one and the same, but somehow became divided. Maybe that's why you have fade spirits and demons. Maybe they weren't so limited to one aspect of the mortal psyche, maybe they were whole once and when the Black and the Gold were divided they were divided as well. And that might be why demons seek to posess corporeal forms, not just to experience the pleasure of living, but finding some measure of wholeness. And why the benevolent fade spirits seek to aspire to the utmost of their virtues because that's another type of wholeness.

[Dougal Meatshanks]

Well as the fade reflects mortal thoughts, it's possible the black city in the fade only started showing up after the cult of andraste formed and the Chantry doctrine was being taught.

Thus the Chantry faithful created the black city inadvertantly which then lends stronger credence to their beliefs. A nice self fulfilling prophecy.

Dougal

Modifié par Dougal Meatshanks, 26 septembre 2010 - 01:09 .

[Reika]

Dougal Meatshanks wrote...

Well as the fade reflects mortal thoughts, it's possible the black city in the fade only started showing up after the cult of andraste formed and the Chantry doctrine was being taught.

Thus the Chantry faithful created the black city inadvertantly which then lends stronger credence to their beliefs. A nice self fulfilling prophecy.

Dougal

Good point on that.

[TJPags]

I still say - smart, talking darkspawn who have "plans" are not good - especially when they can't control their own followers. I should let them make more? Don't think so.

[Giggles_Manically]

TJPags wrote...

I still say - smart, talking darkspawn who have "plans" are not good - especially when they can't control their own followers. I should let them make more? Don't think so.

Except for his followers who might just figure out what to do.
Than again, since he so lovingly showed up, I will do him the immense favor of killing him.

[TJPags]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I still say - smart, talking darkspawn who have "plans" are not good - especially when they can't control their own followers. I should let them make more? Don't think so.

Except for his followers who might just figure out what to do.
Than again, since he so lovingly showed up, I will do him the immense favor of killing him.

They might.

But he hasn't - and I see no reason to hang out and keep dealing with his failures on the off chance he might someday get it right.