212 réponses à ce sujet

[Reika]

I most certainly do not kill Loghain because he has a different viewpoint. I kill Loghain because the man was an oathbreaker, willingly worked with someone who was far worse, and sold citizens into slavery. Yes, I know they were "only" elves, but when you start that slippery slope you soon go from the "elves" to the human poor, then political dissidents...

[Dougal Meatshanks]

TJPags wrote...

Dougal Meatshanks wrote...

TJPags wrote...

But if the Architect wants to let all enlightened Darkspawn think for themselves, them the Mother wanting the song back is as valid as others want to live in peace with humans. She's not a dissident, not to him - he has no agenda except to let them think for themselves, or so he says.

So why is he so hot to kill her? Ahhh, because he DOES have an agenda.

She's preaching a different social code, one where they go back to not thinking for themselves. I didn't say that he was 'right' to kill her, only that what he's doing is NO DIFFERENT to what NON darkspawn societies do, fight/kill those they do not see as for the 'good' of their people.

It's no different to you deciding to kill Loghain because he had a different view of where Fereldan should be.

Dougal

Yes, that IS what he's doing.

But it's not consistent with what he tells us he's doing, which is to simply give his people the chance to think for themselves.  If all I want is for someone to think for themself, if they choose to think something different than what I would prefer them to, it should be no problem . . . unless I have some stake in what they DO think.

So the Architect isn't being honest, or not completely honest - again.
Oh, and that's not why I kill Loghain.

And how is THAT different to how people from other countries work?

All I'm saying is if darkspawn are given free will, then they will be just like any other kingdom on the planet and can be treated the same way. Agression isn't tolerated, regardless of who you are.

Loghain thought CALIN was oathbreaking by working with Orlais. Was he right? It's subjective. Had he won control of the kingdom we may still have defeated the blight,  but in a different way. The point is that sentient darkspawn become like any other kingdom. If they become aggressors you fight, if they don't you leave them alone. But if we don't conclude 'all Q'nari should die' because some Qunari tried to conquer Thedas, why should a double standard be applied to free thinking darkspawn?

Do we demand the slaughter of ever Orlesian because the Orlesian kingdom conquered Fereldan? No. So why slaughter every Darkspawn? Do we kill every person controlled by blood mages? No we attempt to break the link and kill the mage. So why kill darkspawn being controlled by the old gods? Why aren't we looking for them to kill?


When the Darkspawn are sentient, then they have the ability to choose to be good or bad. that they choose to be bad doesn't mean ALL are bad and should thus be killed any more than SOME Orlesians deciding to be bad and conquering Fereldan means ALL Orlesians should be killed.


You know, for a game that's styled 'dark fantasy', where everything is a shade of grey and choice is more important than what is subjectively 'good', the argument of an objectively, irredeemably and irrevocably 'evil' darspawn fits like a square peg in a round hole. That is, not at all.

Which, given the evidence of darkspawn as depicted through the story, makes me wonder why people wish to adamantly crucify the entire lot based on the actions of a few. If we used that standard against everyone, the world would end in mutally assured genocide.

Hellebore:devil:

[Giggles_Manically]

Are you blind or did you sleep through awakening?



Not a "few" darkspawn who were awoken went bonkers and attacked people.

A good number of them went crazy and were then smart darkspawn.



The fact that some didnt launch an attack does not mean that the rest wont.

I am sorry but darkspawn are still parasites who are diseased. You can delude yourself into thinking that if you try and wake them up that they will never do something bad, but most people know full well that darkspawn are still going to be darkspawn at the end of the day.

[flexxdk]

When I met the Architect, I was like

after he stopped talking.

Then I killed him.

Seriously, smart darkspawn are dangerous. Perhaps it will stop a Blight or two, but who's to say that they won't raid the surface again?

Modifié par Whacka, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:06 .

[Giggles_Manically]

This was my face.

[Dougal Meatshanks]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Are you blind or did you sleep through awakening?

Not a "few" darkspawn who were awoken went bonkers and attacked people.
A good number of them went crazy and were then smart darkspawn.

The fact that some didnt launch an attack does not mean that the rest wont.
I am sorry but darkspawn are still parasites who are diseased. You can delude yourself into thinking that if you try and wake them up that they will never do something bad, but most people know full well that darkspawn are still going to be darkspawn at the end of the day.

And such thinking is what led to many racial attrocities perpetrated in our own history. "But most people know full well that [insert appropriate ethnic group from celts to moors] are still going to be [insert again] at the end of the day". Only the writers 'know' what they are and it would seem a little absurd to have such a large chunk of the setting story (game and novels) follow a complete red herring.

As I said, the setting as described + absolute evil darkspawn does not make much sense. Why go on about dark fantasy with moral ambiguity if you have clear cut black and white EEEVIIILLL in there? It completely neuters the original point.

However, you yourself didn't kill the messenger because he was 'good'. So, would you kill him because he's one of those 'no good darkspawn you can't trust em might as well kill the lot' just in case, or leave him be?

All I'm saying is that if they become free willed they be judged like any free willed individual - which means if they get all uppity, you kill their asses. I'm not saying stick flowers in their swords and sing Kumbaya, I'm saying don't PRE judge their actions based on the actions of mind controlled individuals of their race. Any more than you judge the actions of and immediately murder any Orlesian/Tevinter/Qunari because people from those kingdoms/races have variously conquered/enslaved or murdered your own people.

If they try to kill you, you try to kill them right back. But always remember why it's happening and don't just kill them because of what they are, kill them because of their ACTIONS. If Darkspawn talk and say 'I don't want to fight' then don't kill them because they are 'darkspawn' - that makes you worse than the darkspawn you slaughter because they have no choice in the matter and you do.


I would be a little pissed if the entire cost of Awakenings was a complete farce. The only expansion for DA: O and it was completely irrelevant to the story because darkspawn are irredeemably EEEVVIILLLL anyway no matter what they story says.

None of the exposition in the expansion would have any bearing on the world, nothing would be accomplished. Which seems to be at odds with the point of the game. Why have all that backstory (including a novel about it) if it's all irrelevant. That and dark fantasy/grey morality ≠ objectively eviilll factions. Something has to give for one to be true.

But I've outlined the logic in my point. If you decide you still think all darkspawn are objectively evil and irredeemably so, then that's fine. I don't agree and I've stated why.

Whacka wrote...

When I met the Architect, I was like
after he stopped talking.

Then I killed him.

Seriously,
smart darkspawn are dangerous. Perhaps it will stop a Blight or two,
but who's to say that they won't raid the surface again?

You mean like how Orlais conquered Fereldan for a hundred years? Better slaughter all the Orlesians so they don't do that again...

Hellebore

Modifié par Dougal Meatshanks, 27 septembre 2010 - 04:10 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Darkspawn arent a people or a race, they are a disease, one that walks,kills, rapes, and murders with abandon and has done it for centuries. All they know is violence it takes only the smallest push to drive them into violence, the architect is not a messiah he is a failure and villian.



I have no more guilt when killing him and his kind than I do stepping on a bug. At the end of the day they still spread the taint, they will still need broodmothers, and the architect is only interested in his own goals not to making the world better. Believe what you will, I believe that the only solution is their utter annihilation.

[flexxdk]

Dougal Meatshanks wrote...

Whacka wrote...

When I met the Architect, I was like
after he stopped talking.

Then I killed him.

Seriously,
smart darkspawn are dangerous. Perhaps it will stop a Blight or two, 
but who's to say that they won't raid the surface again?

You mean like how Orlais conquered Fereldan for a hundred years? Better slaughter all the Orlesians so they don't do that again...

Hellebore

Eeeeeeeer noooo... Orlais conquering Ferelden is completely different...

I would be a little pissed if the entire cost of Awakenings was a complete farce. The only expansion for DA: O and it was completely irrelevant to the story because darkspawn are irredeemably EEEVVIILLLL anyway no matter what they story says.

Well, it was relevant to the story in many ways...

And I really don't consider darkspawn a race. They don't have a soul. They cause death and destruction everywhere they go. And they turn your wife into a Broodmother if they catch her...

The darkspawn will need broodmothers at a certain point. And I don't see humans, dwarves, elves and qunaris volunteer freely to become one. It means that they would have to go to the surface again.
It would cause the already existing tension to rise between the darkspawn and the other races.

[wickedgoodreed]

Dougal Meatshanks wrote...
Do we demand the slaughter of ever Orlesian because the Orlesian kingdom conquered Fereldan? No. So why slaughter every Darkspawn? Do we kill every person controlled by blood mages? No we attempt to break the link and kill the mage. So why kill darkspawn being controlled by the old gods? Why aren't we looking for them to kill?

Do we kill every person whose mind becomes controlled by a blood mage? No, of course not. However, the more apt analogy to the darkspawn would be if the blood mage transforms their victims into something that no longer qualifies as a human and makes them a threat to the existence of life around them, like say abominations. In that case, yes, I'd say kill the abomination. And I'm sure if the Wardens knew where the remaining old gods were and could go after them directly without tainting them themselves they would, but barring that they do their duty by containing the darkspawn threat.

As it stands, the darkspawn as a group are not rational beings and do not have free will; they are corrupted, soulless creatures born from broodmothers. The darkspawn are not a true race; genlocks, hurlocks, shrieks, ogres...those are all a cancer, parasites, diseased mutations of actual races. Therefore, I don't believe the darkspawn qualify to be treated with the same ethical standards used for "humanity."  I'm not willing to let the Architect use the lives of dwarves, elves, humans and qunari (who are rational beings) as mere means in order to give him the opportunity to continue his experiments and perpetuate the disease that defines their very existence.

Modifié par wickedgoodreed, 27 septembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[jpdipity]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

Dougal Meatshanks wrote...
Do we demand the slaughter of ever Orlesian because the Orlesian kingdom conquered Fereldan? No. So why slaughter every Darkspawn? Do we kill every person controlled by blood mages? No we attempt to break the link and kill the mage. So why kill darkspawn being controlled by the old gods? Why aren't we looking for them to kill?

Do we kill every person whose mind becomes controlled by a blood mage? No, of course not. However, the more apt analogy to the darkspawn would be if the blood mage transforms their victims into something that no longer qualifies as a human and makes them a threat to the existence of life around them, like say abominations. In that case, yes, I'd say kill the abomination. And I'm sure if the Wardens knew where the remaining old gods were and could go after them directly without tainting them themselves they would, but barring that they do their duty by containing the darkspawn threat.

As it stands, the darkspawn as a group are not rational beings and do not have free will; they are corrupted, soulless creatures born from broodmothers. The darkspawn are not a true race; genlocks, hurlocks, shrieks, ogres...those are all a cancer, parasites, diseased mutations of actual races. Therefore, I don't believe the darkspawn qualify to be treated with the same ethical standards used for "humanity."  I'm not willing to let the Architect use the lives of dwarves, elves, humans and qunari (who are rational beings) as mere means in order to give him the opportunity to continue his experiments and perpetuate the disease that defines their very existence.

Per The Calling, the Grey Wardens do know the location of the Old Gods, but that does not mean that they are within reach.

The darkspawn are like a parasite.  They cannot survive without forceablly violating and altering another race and their mere presence kills living things with or without aggression - they need to be eliminated.

Modifié par jpdipity, 27 septembre 2010 - 07:11 .

[Bahlgan]

Do you guys remember what happens when you spare the werewolves and even allow them to fight in your army against the darkspawn? Eventually they turn savage again even beyond the control of Witherfang. Talk about a waste of sympathy. I was once under the impression (with my evil character) of saving the lives of the werewolves, but then my attempts are shot to **** while they turn into savage beasts again, running off an killing away any men, women, and children that stray by their territory. Who is to say that even if a Warden spares the Architect and the darkspawn that they might not lose control also?

Modifié par Bahlgan, 27 septembre 2010 - 09:15 .

[TJPags]

Dougal Meatshanks wrote..
And how is THAT different to how people from other countries work?

All I'm saying is if darkspawn are given free will, then they will be just like any other kingdom on the planet and can be treated the same way. Agression isn't tolerated, regardless of who you are.

Loghain thought CALIN was oathbreaking by working with Orlais. Was he right? It's subjective. Had he won control of the kingdom we may still have defeated the blight,  but in a different way. The point is that sentient darkspawn become like any other kingdom. If they become aggressors you fight, if they don't you leave them alone. But if we don't conclude 'all Q'nari should die' because some Qunari tried to conquer Thedas, why should a double standard be applied to free thinking darkspawn?

Do we demand the slaughter of ever Orlesian because the Orlesian kingdom conquered Fereldan? No. So why slaughter every Darkspawn? Do we kill every person controlled by blood mages? No we attempt to break the link and kill the mage. So why kill darkspawn being controlled by the old gods? Why aren't we looking for them to kill?


When the Darkspawn are sentient, then they have the ability to choose to be good or bad. that they choose to be bad doesn't mean ALL are bad and should thus be killed any more than SOME Orlesians deciding to be bad and conquering Fereldan means ALL Orlesians should be killed.


You know, for a game that's styled 'dark fantasy', where everything is a shade of grey and choice is more important than what is subjectively 'good', the argument of an objectively, irredeemably and irrevocably 'evil' darspawn fits like a square peg in a round hole. That is, not at all.

Which, given the evidence of darkspawn as depicted through the story, makes me wonder why people wish to adamantly crucify the entire lot based on the actions of a few. If we used that standard against everyone, the world would end in mutally assured genocide.

Hellebore:devil:

See, here's what you're not getting.

Kill people who disagree with you?  Yes, that's one thing.  But the Architect's professed wish is that EVERY DARKSPAWN THINK FOR ITSELF.  So, now we have an enlightened Darkspawn - the Mother - thinking for herself.  And she wants the days of the Archdemon back.

Now, if the Architect said I want every darkspawn to think for itself, just as long as it doesn't think about killing humans, or bringing back the days of hive mind, well, then he'd be within his stated goal for wanting to destroy the Mother.

But he didn't say that.  He said, think for themselves.  When what he apparently meant was, think for themselves along the lines I want them too.  See, action and stated intent not consistent.  So, he's lying already, even if just by omission.

So, since he has already attacked me, imprisoned me, and experimented on me without trying to talk, tried to kill me when I escaped, shown an inability to control his followers, and now lied to me, what, exactly, is the reason I should spare this guy?