98 réponses à ce sujet

[Babli]

implodinggoat wrote...
I think the problem with Liara's character is that she was an after thought.  Bioware had things they wanted to get done in the plot and they contorted Liara into a completely different character to get them done.

OBJECTIVE 1:  Make the player want  to pursue the other love interests in ME2.
SOLUTION:  Make the ME1 love interests as unappealing as possible.

OBJECTIVE 2:  Everything has to fit in with the "DARK SECOND ACT" mentality. 
SOLUTION: Take the most beneveloent, honest and likeable character in ME1 and turn her into a ruthless, manipulative and extremely unlikeable character; becausethat makes her "DARK".

OBJECTIVE 3:  The fans would be pissed if we don't squeeze a Liara cameo in somewhere.
SOLUTION:  Why not use Liara as a crude plot device which puts you on the trail of Samara and Thane?

OBJECTIVE 4:  Sell Comic Books and DLC.
SOLUTION:  Create an arbitrary and largely unexplained connection between Liara and the Shadowbroker so fans will throw down cash to try and figure out the bizarre transformation in Liara's character.


Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the game and of Bioware in general; but I'm not going to turn a blind eye to the fact that they butchered one of my favorite character's so they could use her as a convenient plot device.

This.

[Turian Antiquarian]

implodinggoat wrote...

OBJECTIVE 1: Make the player want to pursue the other love interests in ME2.
SOLUTION: Make the ME1 love interests as unappealing as possible.

Oh yeah?!

How does THAT suppose to fit with the emotional sense of closure Shepard clearly experiences upon meeting Ashly/Kaiden in ME2?

You make it sound like what actually went on, Was that people who trusted Shepard enough to follow him anywhere blindly, Thought the most appropriate way to greet him after he just saved their lives, not to mention 2 years of thinking he was dead, would be by giving him essentially the same "you were manipulated" speech made by the Turian councilor.......


Oh.. Wait.... Nevermind

Modifié par Turian Antiquarian, 11 septembre 2010 - 10:59 .

[Lumikki]

Terror_K wrote...

According to Liara's voice actress, she was just as confused about Liara's change of personality in ME2 as many of us were. Perhaps even moreso:-

I was never confused about it. In ME1 Liara was this innocent archeologist. What happen in ME1 on her did cause her to lose the innocent and become more agressive and confident that she can do stuff her own. I did not see any conflict, I saw her growing up. If You take some innocent person and throw that person in middle of war. Don't expect them to come same out of it. Liara wasn't in ME1 on some ride for pleasure, she was killing "people".

[implodinggoat]

Turian Antiquarian wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

OBJECTIVE 1: Make the player want to pursue the other love interests in ME2.
SOLUTION: Make the ME1 love interests as unappealing as possible.

Oh yeah?!

How does THAT suppose to fit with the emotional sense of closure Shepard clearly experiences upon meeting Ashly/Kaiden in ME2?

You make it sound like what actually went on, Was that people who trusted Shepard enough to follow him anywhere blindly, Thought the most appropriate way to greet him after he just saved their lives, not to mention 2 years of thinking he was dead, would be by giving him essentially the same "you were manipulated" speech made by the Turian councilor.......


Oh.. Wait.... Nevermind

I'm not saying that trying to get you interested in the other love interests is a bad thing, I'm just saying with Liara it was done in a totally unbelievable and frustrating way.

[SPOILERS]

I actually thought the confrontation with Ashley or Kaiden was great.  It gets you to consider the other love interests; but it does so in a manner which is both dramatic and which fits Ashley or Kaiden's character.  I mean if anything Shepard, Joker, and Dr. Chakwas working with Cerberus is way more out of character than Ashley or Kaiden calling you out on it.

The problem with the way they get you to lose interest in Liara is that they do so by changing her character in a bizzarre and unjustified manner and it doesn't come off feeling dramatic as much as it feels confusing, depressing and irritating.  I mean after the confrontation with Ashley or Kaiden they dissappear so you can't resolve it; but prior to the release of LOTSB you could walk right up to Liara sitting at her desk and the only reason why you couldn't do something to resolve the situation is because the writers didn't give you any dialogue choices to do so.

So with Liara you just have to walk off and leave your lover in a place where she's slowly destroying herself and leave your relationship with her in limbo even though you could easily walk into her office and at least try to do something to resolve things.  Honestly what sort of human being would leave their former lover to destroy themself without at least trying to save her or at the very least knowing if your relationship was over or not?

With the addition of LOTSB Liara at least has a valid justification not to join your crew and you get to see enough of her inner goodness to get a sense that she's not actively destroying herself anymore; but its still frustrating that you're leaving her in a position where the dirty dealing nature of her job and the immense power at her disposal is still  likely to corrupt her.  It makes sense that you'd leave her in that position since you'll need that power to fight the reapers; but as I've said it still feels like Liara is being used as a sacraficial lamb.  I'm reasonably satisfied with the state of affairs at the end of LOTSB; but if I don't get an opportunity to get her back on my crew and away from all this dirty dealing Shadow Broker business in ME3, I'll be pissed.

ME2 is all about compromising your convictions and its starting to grow stale and frustrating.  In ME3 I want a few opportunities to actually be righteouss again and sitting back and watching as Liara turns into her mother doesn't fit the bill.

[END SPOILERS]

[Turian Antiquarian]

@implodinggoat

I guess it all just comes down to perspective.
Ashly was my LI, And my favorite character. With a "Sole Survivor" Shepard It makes it even more "Logically-unacceptable"

[SPOILERS!]

With Shep as a "Sole Survivor", It's not just the "similar
background" factor, It actually unlocks a dialogue where she compares
both of your situations and asks you for emotional guidance.

I did not finish my first ME2 playthrough. Didn't see the point after the
"Akuze" thing, but what finely made me delete the profile was getting
that "Hey There" from Ashly. Yes, all that emotional tension was
supposed to be resolved in the most insignificant way possible to make
some thing count as plot.
BTW
Dr. Michelle wasn't killed on the citadel. Apparently it's just as important.

Forgot how much self-denial was involved six months ago.

You'd understand if I don't elaborate on how that probably what made me not to care as much as you about ME2 Liara, or the why she will react if you show up with tali and garrus.
[END SPOILERS]


I hope you were pleased with how things resolved In EXP_part01

I can't think of anything they might put In EXP_part02 (or whatever) to make things right from where I'm standing.

Modifié par Turian Antiquarian, 12 septembre 2010 - 07:13 .

[implodinggoat]

Turian Antiquarian wrote...

@implodinggoat

I guess it all just comes down to perspective.
Ashly was my LI, And my favorite character. With a "Sole Survivor" Shepard It makes it even more "Logically-unacceptable"

[SPOILERS]

I hated working with Cerberus in ME2, put a sour note on the whole game for me.  I played through the campaign waiting for the chance to betray them and it just never came.

Unless you're a Renegade who blew up the council the very concept of Shepard working with Cerberus at all is a logically flawed premise even if you don't have the Sole Survivor background; but if you do its absolutely ludicrous.  I come from a family of military officers and I know there is absolutely no way that you would ever work with traitors who killed the unit you were commanding.  Frankly as soon as Jacob said "I work for Cerberus" Shepard probably would have shot him in the head, tracked down Miranda, interrogated her until she told him where the Illusive Man was and then torn the SOB's eyes out of his head.

Both Liara and Ashley/Kaiden's dialogue comes of as way too nonchalant if you were their former lover.  I find Ashley/Kaiden's reaction to you working with Cerberus to be in following with their character although if you were their lover it should have been a hell of a lot more dramatic.  I'd imagine Ashley reacting to Shepard working with Cerberus by concluding that the man she loved is gone forever  and that the man standing before her is just some twisted Cerberus copy.  Maybe some dialogue along the lines of "I don't know what the hell you are; but you aren't the man I fell in love with."

The only thing I'll say for Ashley/Kaiden's reaction though is that it does fit their character aside from how casual it is regardless of whether you were their lover or not.  Where as Liara is acting like a totally different person and doing so on the basis of a contrived motivation which her character wouldn't have embraced in the first place.

PS:  If they were to release some DLC that let you continue your relationship with Ashley or Kaiden. I think the concept of them not believing that you're the real Shepard would be a good starting point and over the course of the DLC you get the oppurtunity to prove to them that you're still the same man/woman you used to be.  Still not perfect (neither is LOTSB); but it would at least patch some of the damage.

[END SPOILERS]

Modifié par implodinggoat, 11 septembre 2010 - 01:16 .

[Turian Antiquarian]

Double

Modifié par Turian Antiquarian, 11 septembre 2010 - 03:00 .

[Turian Antiquarian]

@implodinggoat

Man, you just blendered my brain. A lot of High brass in my family as well.
But hey, Shep's supposed to push everything aside right? I'd like to see the In-game Email that will help me understand how you go from that nightmare on Akuze, To a close inspection of the engine room floor.


I honestly don't understand how someone with such a powerful grasp of what you Mentioned, can write about it in such a comprehensive way, While still being able to enjoy another playthrough. I know I can't.

This would be a good place for me to stop. I think I'm starting to get why Some people would choose Samara, even if she's more of a PLI.


All the best,

*EDIT*

P.S

Thank God Martin Sheen did such a great job. Not many actors could avoid mistakenly portraying him as smug or decadent. Who'd wanna work for THAT guy?

Modifié par Turian Antiquarian, 11 septembre 2010 - 03:01 .

[Solaris Paradox]

That's what we call a voice-direction flub-up. You can't expect an actor to act properly unless they understand their character's motivation.

[Solaris Paradox]

implodinggoat wrote...

[SPOILERS]

I hated working with Cerberus in ME2, put a sour note on the whole game for me.  I played through the campaign waiting for the chance to betray them and it just never came.

N7: Lost Operative

Please oh please use discretion with those Top Secret Cerberus Intel Files! They might cause real problems if you send them to the Alliance! Don't send them to the Alliance. Cerberus will Pays You if you don't.

I got no problems working with Cerberus to fight our common enemy, but you know, if I can throw a wrench or two in the organization along the way, I'm not gonna turn my nose up at the opportunity.

[upsettingshorts]

implodinggoat wrote...
I come from a family of military officers and I know there is absolutely no way that you would ever work with traitors who killed the unit you were commanding.

Convenient comparison ignores the key premise of Mass Effect 2:

Cerberus is - whether we or Shepard like it or not - the only force out there who is going to do something about the Reaper threat.  Everyone else is either ignorant, in denial, or outright hostile to the idea.

So ask your family of military officers this question instead:

"Would you work with the traitors who killed the unit you were commanding if the survival of the entire human race was at stake?"

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 septembre 2010 - 03:28 .

[implodinggoat]

Turian Antiquarian wrote...

I honestly don't understand how someone with such a powerful grasp of what you Mentioned, can write about it in such a comprehensive way, While still being able to enjoy another playthrough. I know I can't.

Short Answer...

Every time I get pissed off about working with Cerberus, I think about what I'm gonna do to the Illuisve Man after the Reapers are dealt with.

Long Answer...

Mainly I just try not to focus on it so I can enjoy the story.   Aside from that if you take the angle that Shepard is thinking long term and shelving his unfinished businness with Cerberus until after the Reapers are dealt with then it becomes more palatble.  Above all I have to play the game by the mantra... Revenge is a Dish Best Served Cold and think of the day that I pry the Illuisive Man's Glowing Blue Eyes out of his head as the reward waiting for me when I polish off the Reapers.

[NUMEROUS SPOILERS]

I also play as a Colonist, not a Sole Survivor so the Akuze issue isn't quite as glaring.  I can understand an officer delaying justice for known traitors if doing so would help to win the war; but not if the men they betrayed were your men.  If they're your men its not even a matter of whether its strategically sound or not, you simply couldn't will yourself to set that aside.

Still there are points where I invariably become pissed off at the bull**** I'm being asked to swallow.  Times when it takes mental gymnastics to justify how Shepard could go along with Cerberus to the degree he does.

FOR EXAMPLE...

• Not shooting Jacob and Miranda as soon as he knows they're Cerberus.
• Not hijacking the shuttle off Lazarus Station and heading for the Alliance.
• Not taking the Normandy straight to the Citadel and arresting the entire crew (Joker and the Dr. included).
• Not disabling the surveillance bugs the Illusive Man left on his ship.
• Not calling the Alliance when Horizon is attacked, simply because the Illusive Man tells him to.
• Not taking the evidence of the Collector Attack on Horizon to the media and using political outrage to force the Alliance to back him up. 
• Not arresting the crew and/or staging a full scale mutiny after the Illusive Man nearly gets them all killed on the Collector Cruiser and then gives Shepard the last piece of intel Shepard needs to go through the Omega 4  relay on his own. 
• Not interrogating or even asking Miranda at any point where the Illusive Man is and hunting his ass down.
• Not using the Shadow Broker intel to find out where the Illusive Man is and hunting his ass down.
• Not turning all the Cerberus files from EDI and the Shadow Broker over to the Alliance. 
• Not swapping his Cerberus crew out for an Alliance one.

[END SPOILERS][*]

Modifié par implodinggoat, 11 septembre 2010 - 04:14 .

[TMA LIVE]

I think the only main problems with voicing a bioware character from what I understand is that you're character is always being rewritten. Unlike a film or something that's has a linear storyline, Bioware games are a bunch of stories being written by different writers writing at the same time, and the stories they write are non-linear. Because of this, things are changing all the time. One day your character flies, and the next day he doesn't. One day your character's sister died, and the next day he doesn't even have a sister. One day your character is a lesbian, and then the next day she's straight. etc. Liara's just one of those character that kept changing, to the point where it's just easier to tell Ali "Just say these lines like this. Your part's gonna be changing tomorrow, so don't ask why."

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 11 septembre 2010 - 03:56 .

[Mooner911]

I'm totally surprised (and worried) by the conclusions that must be drawn from Ali's comments about the inner workings of BW and their vision of the ME series. Which is: they have no vision, just a general sketch of the broad plot. According to Ali, BW really had no idea of the importance, depth, or ultimate destiny of the Liara character. It's like, through popular demand, she inadvertantly stole a main chunk of the games' overall popularity and the writers were scrambling to keep up.

[implodinggoat]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Convenient comparison ignores the key premise of Mass Effect 2:

Cerberus is - whether we or Shepard like it or not - the only force out there who is going to do something about the Reaper threat.  Everyone else is either ignorant, in denial, or outright hostile to the idea.

A: The key premise is bull****. 

If Shepard told Cerberus to go **** themselves what would they do?  Would they deny him the intel he needed to save the Galaxy simply because he refused to play by their rules?

Ultimately Cerberus needs you more than you need them and yet Shepard lets them push him around.  I can only guess that project Lazarus didn't have time to stitch Shepard's balls back on.

B: Shepard doesn't even try to get away from them does he?

The Alliance and the Council turn him down once and he just drops the issue and lets the Illuisve man yanks his chain for the rest of the game.  Personally, I'd put a little more effort into getting the bulk of the galaxy's military force back on my side.

So ask your family of military officers this question instead:

"Would you work with the traitors who killed the unit you were commanding if the survival of the entire human race was at stake?"

The answer is No. 

Its not a matter of logic, its a matter of the bond you develop with your men.  Its not a matter of if you SHOULD set it aside.  You CAN'T set it aside.  Go ask some military personel, you'll get the same answer.

Every second you would be thinking about killing every last Cerberus SOB on the ship and the instant Miranda or Jacob or anyone else so much as looked at you the wrong way you'd snap their neck with your bare hands.  It would be difficult to run a ship under such conditions.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 11 septembre 2010 - 04:08 .

[TMA LIVE]

Mooner911 wrote...

I'm totally surprised (and worried) by the conclusions that must be drawn from Ali's comments about the inner workings of BW and their vision of the ME series. Which is: they have no vision, just a general sketch of the broad plot. According to Ali, BW really had no idea of the importance, depth, or ultimate destiny of the Liara character. It's like, through popular demand, she inadvertantly stole a main chunk of the games' overall popularity and the writers were scrambling to keep up.

Well, it's not that. It's just what happens when spending 2 years on something that's non-linear. Example, look at the old videos of Mass Effect. The main story is still the same, but the character keep changing a bit. They still have the same jobs, but they're either older, younger, more harden, etc.





The main story still the same, but because it's a game, and non-linear, lots of things change. Stuff like that happens all the time, and with other games. Especially when another parts of the story is handed off for comics.

[upsettingshorts]

implodinggoat wrote...
A: The key premise is bull****. 

If Shepard told Cerberus to go **** themselves what would they do?  Would they deny him the intel he needed to save the Galaxy simply because he refused to play by their rules?

That's not what you're saying.  You're saying you'd either torture or kill every Cerberus person you came across till you found the Illusive Man, then kill him too.  My Paragon Shepard will tolerate TIM because he has the information network and support structure I need to do the job that needs to get done, and isn't putting me through the political bull**** of the Alliance or the Council.

The answer is No.

Its not a matter of logic, its a matter of the bond you develop with your men.  Its not a matter of if you SHOULD set it aside.  You CAN'T set it aside.  Go ask some military personel, you'll get the same answer.

The military personnel I know are professionals, not psychopaths who would, well think like this:

Every second you would be thinking about killing every last Cerberus SOB on the ship and the instant Miranda or Jacob or anyone else so much as looked at you the wrong way you'd snap their neck with your bare hands.  It would be difficult to run a ship under such conditions.

Based on the description of your military family, they would have been totally incapable of say being part of the Occupation of Japan after World War II because the nature of the Pacfic War was so brutal and bloody that they would be constantly thinking of murdering every Japanese soldier they came across, despite now being on the same side.

And just because I know it will come up in some form, I'll get it out of the way now: My father is burried at Arlington National Cemetary.  I know my fair share of servicemen and women too.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 septembre 2010 - 04:22 .

[implodinggoat]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Based on the description of your military family, they would have been totally incapable of say being part of the Occupation of Japan after World War II because the nature of the Pacfic War was so brutal and bloody that they would be constantly thinking of murdering every Japanese soldier they came across, despite now being on the same side.

And just because I know it will come up in some form, I'll get it out of the way now: My father is burried at Arlington National Cemetary.  I know my fair share of servicemen and women too.  

A: My grandfather commanded an armored batallion in occupied Germany.  He didn't kill every German he saw because you don't hold a nationality responsible for the actions of a government or organization.  Cerberus is a terrorist organization which people voluntarily join not a nationality which they are born into. When Hitler was in charge of the Germans we killed Germans when he was deposed and peace was declared we stopped.  But TIM the man who authorized Akuze is still in charge of Cerberus and so long as he is there can be no peace.

B: Occupied Japan is a poor metaphor.  The Japanese were war time enemies, they did their duty as Soldiers and ceased to be enemies once peace was declared since their government offered unconditional surrender.  Aside from that we were in charge in occupied Japan.  In ME2 Cerberus is the one giving you orders.

Cerberus are terrorist traitors. They are without honor and there can be no peace with them since they are terrorists not wartime combatants.

A better metaphor would be the Captain of the USS Cole taking orders from Osama Bin Laden.

PS:  This will be my final post on the subject, we're starting to veer very far from the thread's topic.  You're free to offer a rebuttal; but don't expect a response.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 11 septembre 2010 - 05:01 .

[Turian Antiquarian]

Clicked quote instead of edit... Yeah I know.    Sorry

Modifié par Turian Antiquarian, 12 septembre 2010 - 07:10 .

[Turian Antiquarian]

OK something's not right...

Modifié par Turian Antiquarian, 12 septembre 2010 - 07:16 .

[tonnactus]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
 You know, being in the real world with bad people as opposed to by herself at dig sites.

She was in the real world all the time when she had to fight slavers and pirates with her biotics.

[tonnactus]

implodinggoat wrote...


I hated working with Cerberus in ME2, put a sour note on the whole game for me.  I played through the campaign waiting for the chance to betray them and it just never came.

Well...
I let the whole cerberus crew die,including jacob and miranda.

[dreman9999]

Terror_K wrote...

HBC Dresden wrote...

Yeah, the whole bit about leaving her in the dark is disparaging. Do they do that in ME2 with all the characters or did they drop the ball with only few of the characters?

Liara's was definitely the worst case of it. Every character had the two year gap to deal with, but Liara's character was the only one that changed so radically to the point of almost seeming like a different character (if you romanced her you could get a little extra dialogue that let a little "old Liara" come through briefly... beyond that we didn't really see any until LotSB). But Joker, Garrus, Tali, Anderson, Udina, Wrex, Ashley, Kaidan, etc. were all pretty much the same characters as they had been in ME1.

Well, Garrus was his old "Eye for an eye" self except funnier.
Tali harden up abit.
Wrex was given a sense of full fillment with character.
Anderson is Anderson. No Change.
But Liara.....we get to see the worst of her. She always had an obsession compulsive streak we just never saw it at its worst in ME1. I liked her character growth, it just that I disliked the result of it.(No snuu snuu for me.)
Liara was a very innocent character and in ME2 she clearly is not any more. Even with LotSB, she still not her old self, she's just more pleasant.

[dreman9999]

tonnactus wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...


I hated working with Cerberus in ME2, put a sour note on the whole game for me.  I played through the campaign waiting for the chance to betray them and it just never came.

Well...
I let the whole cerberus crew die,including jacob and miranda.

That's character growth for you. You hate cerberus, best let them know.