67 réponses à ce sujet

[RGFrog]

I've found myself using ED a lot lately. Maybe because it's something new to try... don't know. But on my adept, where i used to spam singularity and rely on squad overloads, I no longer do either.

Now I spam ED a lot, warp cast on the few bariers.

[Mr_Raider]

Kronner wrote...

When I play Sentinel with Assault Armor, I want it to go down to get the knockback pulse from it, so Energy Drain is not good power for that. Overload is useless too, way too long cooldown and if I want to strip shields I just use squadmates for that. I put only one point into Overload (nowhere else to put anyways). On Engineer though, Energy Drain is far superior to Overload.

ED allows you to decide when the armor gets blown off and when not to get it blown off. You don't want it blown off when you are running at an enemy, you want it blown off when you arrive there.

[Athenau]

Not sure where you got that from, but Overload damages health.
Here a
Sentinel uses it to kill some heavies who continually use cover.

Uh, did you watch your own video? At 7:04 you use overload on a vorcha down to health and it does nothing.
I also tried it on the shadow broker grunts in the DLC, again, it did nothing to their health.

I agree. And the main problems ED are twofold - it covers ground adequately covered by Overload/Disruptor in MOST instances, and it's a bonus power, therefore competing for the same slot as AP/Warp ammo, Reave, Stasis, FBG etc.

You're making the mistake of considering ED as primarily a shield strip. The real power of ED is as a massive shield buff that has half the cooldown of the barrier powers and stays active even when your shields go down. That it also strips shields is icing on the cake.

http://social.biowar...1/index/4530398

Modifié par Athenau, 10 septembre 2010 - 02:17 .

[Simbacca]

JnEricsonx...

Energy Drain or Overload?

What better example to show my opinion on the matter than how I played my insanity Engineer. 

For Geth missions: 
Overload (1pt) / Explosive Drone / Full Cryo Blast / Improved Hacking / Demolisher / Area Drain
For all other missions: 
Area Overload / Incineration Blast / Explosive Drone / Cryo Blast (1pt) / Demolisher / Neural Shockwave

Basically, Energy Drain is beastly for Geth missions.  However if your Shepard already has Overload or Disruptor Ammo in his/her skill set, it would be too redundant to waste your bonus power spot on ED for just shielded organics (Blue Suns) {the only exception being maybe Assault Armor CQC Sentinels}

Modifié par Simbacca, 10 septembre 2010 - 03:11 .

[UrNoseKnows]

I just drop a point to get back shield when it gets too low and when putting up another tech armor would not be a good idea. Like when the 3 Hunters are coming up the ramp in Legion's loyalty mission.



I would max Tali's ED though cause she never seems to stay in cover like I ordered her too :|

[OniGanon]

Only two classes have Overload.



Engineers need 3pts in Overload to access Incinerate. If Energy Drain is taken, you will still be spending 3 pts to get to Incinerate. That's a waste of points. Blasphemy.



Sentinels need 3pts in Overload to access Cryo Blast. Sentinels have Throw, which does just about everything Cryo Blast does, but quicker and with a shorter cooldown. At 51 pts you will have 1pt spent in Overload. 1pt can be used to explode Pyros and crates and such, so it's not totally wasted.

[Simbacca]

OniGanon wrote...

Only two classes have Overload.

Engineers need 3pts in Overload to access Incinerate. If Energy Drain is taken, you will still be spending 3 pts to get to Incinerate. That's a waste of points. Blasphemy. ...

Except for the Engineer that doesn't use Incinerate:

Simbacca wrote...

...For Geth missions: 
Overload (1pt) / Explosive Drone / Full Cryo Blast / Improved Hacking / Demolisher / Area Drain...

Blasphemy!!

[OniGanon]

Well sure, on Geth missions.

[PsyrenY]

Athenau wrote...

Uh, did you watch your own video? At 7:04 you use overload on a vorcha down to health and it does nothing.
I also tried it on the shadow broker grunts in the DLC, again, it did nothing to their health.

1) It's not my video.
2) At 6:40 he finishes a heavy with Overload, which is why I set the time-link to that point. The one at 7:04 was regenerating health rapidly due to not having been warped. But I will test it myself later.

Athenau wrote...You're making the mistake of considering ED as primarily a shield strip. The real power of ED is as a massive shield buff that has half the cooldown of the barrier powers and stays active even when your shields go down. That it also strips shields is icing on the cake.

http://social.biowar...1/index/4530398

I'm aware of that use for it, but as a caster sentinel I don't need to be buffing my shields all the time. I'd rather have two instant-cast long range powers (Overload and Reave) that I can aim through my scope, and use to take down every defense. Assault Sentinels can find a better use for it, but even they actually want their shields to go down most of the time, and spend most of their cooldowns bringing them back up.

Soldiers/Infiltrators have disruptor ammo to deal with shields, and are much better off spending their cooldowns on AR/TC respectively.

For engineers it is redundant, as you have to put points in Overload anyway to get Incinerate, so you may as well max it. That leaves Vanguards and Adepts.

OniGanon wrote...

Only two classes have Overload.

As above: of the remaining 4, two have Disruptor Ammo and far better uses for their cooldowns besides.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 10 septembre 2010 - 04:29 .

[Athenau]

2) At 6:40 he finishes a heavy with Overload, which is why I set the time-link to that point. The one at 7:04 was regenerating health rapidly due to not having been warped. But I will test it myself later.

I have no idea what happened at 6:40, but it sure wasn't overload because even if OL did do damage it's not going to one shot anything with a full red bar.

The one at 7:04 was regenerating but that doesn't matter. The health bar didn't move down...at all.

Soldiers/Infiltrators have disruptor ammo to deal with shields, and are much better off spending their cooldowns on AR/TC respectively.

20-25 seconds of double shields from one ED (+ the damage) is more than worth sacrificing one AR cooldown. On an infiltrator the case would be even more compelling since cloak doesn't amp their damage nearly as much as AR does the soldier.

[PrinceLionheart]

From what I've seen, ED and Overload does comparable damage so it really comes down to which benefits your prefer. Energy Drain gives you extra shield based off of how much damage it does to enemy's shields and mechs. Overload can overheat weapons and cause Pyro's self destruct. 

So yeah, it depends on which class you're playing to see which one can be more beneficial to the playstyle.

[Athenau]

To end the overload debate:

[PsyrenY]

Athenau wrote...

20-25 seconds of double shields from one ED (+ the damage) is more than worth sacrificing one AR cooldown. On an infiltrator the case would be even more compelling since cloak doesn't amp their damage nearly as much as AR does the soldier.

1) You don't need defense if the target is dead.
2) ED is utterly useless vs. Collectors/Organics anyway, and those take up quite a bit of the game's mandatory fights.

I'll concede the Overload debate, though it still acts as CC (overheats weapons) and most importantly doesn't take up the bonus slot.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 10 septembre 2010 - 05:20 .

[Athenau]

1) You don't need defense if the target is dead

That's nice but triggering adrenaline rush once isn't going to kill everyone and having twice the shields the rest of the time means less time in cover = more time shooting people in the face. And there are plenty of times in combat where an instant nuke + shield recharge come in handy.

2) ED is utterly useless vs. Collectors/Organics anyway, and those take up quite a bit of the game's mandatory fights.

Terrible attempt to move goalposts.
1. There are three (count them) collector missions.
2. You can respec.
3. Anyone posting on the strategy forum is playing the game for more than the "mandatory fights" (lol).

Modifié par Athenau, 10 septembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[ezrafetch]

Athenau wrote...

20-25 seconds of double shields from one ED (+ the damage) is more than worth sacrificing one AR cooldown. On an infiltrator the case would be even more compelling since cloak doesn't amp their damage nearly as much as AR does the soldier.

I disagree.  Think about it in terms of opportunity cost.  Because the Soldier gives up more extra damage from an AR cycle, then ED becomes less useful because you're giving up tons of more damage.  If we're talking game time, I actually think Soldiers give up 1.5 AR cycles for a full ED cycle...which makes it even less salivating as an option.  Infiltrators fare better since they don't lose as much from an ED cycle, and since a Cloak cycle is either the same length or longer (depending on how long you stay cloaked), which is what you said.  But for Soldiers I find that it eats up too much time that I could be spending churning out AR cycles.

Of course, I think most powers hurt the Soldier's effiency to a great degree (except Warp/Tungsten, 1pt Neural Shock/Slam maybe), so there you go.  Medi-gels serve as better "save me!" buttons, and do fine with defense stripping thanks to ammo powers.  I've always found ED unnecessary.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 10 septembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[PsyrenY]

Athenau wrote...

That's nice but triggering adrenaline rush once isn't going to kill everyone and having twice the shields the rest of the time means less time in cover = more time shooting people in the face. And there are plenty of times in combat where an instant nuke + shield recharge come in handy.

The fact is that while you are cooling down from your "boost." you cannot AR/Cloak. It is a wash.
If you need an instant shield recharge, that is what Unity is for. It has a much shorter cooldown than ED and does not take up your bonus.

Athenau wrote...
Terrible attempt to move goalposts.

I did not set the goalposts; Bioware did.

Athenau wrote...

1. There are three (count them) collector missions.
2. You can respec.
3. Anyone posting on the strategy forum is playing the game for more than the "mandatory fights" (lol).

1) It is also useless vs. Vanguards, armor (read: every protected mech) husks, scions, and blood pack (krogan, varren and vorcha) etc. That's a tiny bit more than three missions.

2) This is a clear logical fallacy. The fact that you can drop a power when it is useless does not make it stop being useless; in fact, it proves that judgment.

3) See (1).

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 10 septembre 2010 - 05:54 .

[Athenau]

The fact is that while you are cooling down from your "boost." you cannot AR/Cloak. It is a wash.
If you need an instant shield recharge, that is what Unity is for. It has a much shorter cooldown than ED and does not take up your bonus.

Yes, we all know how the cooldown system works. The point I'm trying (and failing, apparently) to make is that one lost AR cooldown can be counterbalanced by the fact that you're spending more time shooting (in AR) the rest of the time.

I did not set the goalposts; Bioware did.

Doing the bare minimum necessary to complete the game is relevant for people doing speedruns, it isn't here. So stop bringing it up, it's highly disingenuous.

1) It is also useless vs. Vanguards, armor (read: every protected mech) husks, scions, and blood pack (krogan, varren and vorcha) etc. That's a tiny bit more than three missions.

Missions with vanguards generally have lots of shielded grunts and/or armored synthetics. And ED damages armor, so all you need to do to get a boost is shoot them a couple of times and then hit drain. If it does even 1 damage to health your shields will recharge.

Husks? Scions? Who cares? You either face them alongside collectors (in which case you take some other bonus) or you're doing the IFF mission, where you just go to town with inferno ammo. It's not like any other bonus power is going to do better. (same goes for krogan and vorcha).

2) This is a clear logical fallacy. The fact that you can drop a power when it is useless does not make it stop being useless; in fact, it proves that judgment.

What are you talking about? The fact that you can drop a power when it's useless means that you can take it when it's good and leave it behind when it isn't. The opportunity cost is zero.

Modifié par Athenau, 10 septembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[PsyrenY]

Athenau wrote...

Yes, we all know how the cooldown system works. The point I'm trying (and failing, apparently) to make is that one lost AR cooldown can be counterbalanced by the fact that you're spending more time shooting (in AR) the rest of the time.

I notice you rightly did not mention Cloak, since extra shields don't matter if you're not being shot at, particularly when your own shots become more lethal. As for AR, you are still ignoring the importance of medigel if you are really that low on health. I don't blame you though; Bioware themselves have mentioned Unity is underused.

Yet even so, the cooldown is still lower than ED.

Athenau wrote...
Doing the bare minimum necessary to complete the game is relevant for people doing speedruns, it isn't here. So stop bringing it up, it's highly disingenuous.

Actually, I mentioned mandatory missions to point out that ED becoming useless is inevitable for any playthrough, speedrun or not. You are the one being disingenuous, by advocating a power that people will be forced to go through the hassle (and eezo) speccing out of, or else be gimp. Touting it as being the best option does not account for that caveat.

Missions with vanguards generally have lots of shielded grunts and/or armored synthetics. And ED damages armor, so all you need to do to get a boost is shoot them a couple of times and then hit drain. If it does even 1 damage to health your shields will recharge.

Or I can shoot them a couple of times then AR/Cloak/Charge and finish them off. Or shoot them a couple of times and refill my shields with Unity. Or shoot them a couple of times and hit GSB/Barrier. Or...

Athenau wrote...

Husks? Scions? Who cares? You either face them alongside collectors (in which case you take some other bonus) or you're doing the IFF mission, where you just go to town with inferno ammo. It's not like any other bonus power is going to do better. (same goes for krogan and vorcha).

Reave. Stasis. Warp Ammo. AP ammo. Flashbang Grenade.
Personally, I'd rather have a bonus that doesn't need to be switched.
That you don't mind is a fine preference, but one that I do not share.

What are you talking about? The fact that you can drop a power when it's useless means that you can take it when it's good and leave it behind when it isn't. The opportunity cost is zero.

It takes time to switch powers, and even more time if you forget to do it before you leave the Normandy and have to sit through the load screen, "landing cutscene", pick your squad, start the mission, before you can reload your save on the Normandy (assuming you even remembered to do that) and sit through yet another loading screen to finally trek to Mordin's lab and switch it out. Not to mention, the eezo cost is only negligible on a NG+, which not everyone is able to play. Disingenuity again.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 10 septembre 2010 - 07:21 .

[Athenau]

 

I notice you rightly did not mention Cloak, since extra shields don't matter if you're not being shot at, particularly when your own shots become more lethal. As for AR, you are still ignoring the importance of medigel. I don't blame you though; Bioware themselves have mentioned Unity is underused.

I didn't mention cloak because the cooldown on cloak is just as long as ED and the damage boost is smaller than AR (and only for one shot), so you're giving up less by not using a cloak cycle.  Of course the "not needing shields" aspect is only true if you sit in cover and cloak all the time.

Yet even so, the cooldown is still lower than ED.

Medigel is limited.  It's a fine panic button, but I never advocated ED as a panic button.

Actually, I mentioned mandatory missions to point out that ED becoming useless is inevitable for any playthrough, speedrun or not

You wrote "and those take up quite a bit of the game's mandatory fights."  The only time this is relevant is if you only do the mandatory fights.  The fact is that the collector missions make up only a small portion of the missions in this game.  Again, disingenuous.

At least 2/3rds of the missions have you fighting shielded enemies (blue suns, eclipse, geth) or armored synthetics (loki, fenris, YMIR) where ED is useful.

Or I can shoot them a couple of times then AR/Cloak/Charge and finish them off.

You can finish them off with ED too, and get a shield buff/recharge to boot.  Using AR on every enemy is overkill.

. Or shoot them a couple of times and refill my shields with Unity.

If you use unity every time your shields drop you're going to be running out of medigel real fast.

Or shoot them a couple of times and hit GSB/Barrier.

Yeah, and then sit through the 9 second cooldown of barrier.  Are you serious?

Reave. Stasis. Warp Ammo. AP ammo. Flashbang Grenade.

Inferno is better than AP/warp for husks/krogan/vorcha.  Reave?  Maybe, but it's primarily a damage power which the soldier doesn't need.  (Also funny, since if AR makes ED irrelevant, then that goes just as well for reave).  Flashbang grenade is decent, but better on Kasumi (instant hit, nearly the same cooldown as on Shepherd).

Personally, I'd rather have a bonus that doesn't need to be switched.That you don't mind is a fine preference, but one that I do not share.

I don't mind because it doesn't cost me anything.  You're swimming in eezo after the first playthrough.

It takes time to switch powers, and even more time if you forget to do it before you leave the Normandy and have to sit through the load screen, "landing cutscene", pick your squad, start the mission, before you can reload your save on the Normandy (assuming you even remembered to do that) and sit through yet another loading screen to finally trek to Mordin's lab and switch it out

You're actually claiming that the time to go to the research screen is some sort of onerous cost?  When you spend tons of time onboard anyway just getting your upgrades, talking to people, and using the galaxy map--please.  You may not like respeccing, but don't pretend that it's difficult or burdensome.

Not to mention, the eezo cost is only negligible on a NG+. Disingenuity again.

This isn't true.  I got the bonus resources on a non NG+ sentinel.  I'm pretty sure all you need to get the resource bonus is to complete the game once.

Modifié par Athenau, 10 septembre 2010 - 08:25 .

[PsyrenY]

[quote]Athenau wrote...

I didn't mention cloak because the cooldown on cloak is just as long as ED and the damage boost is smaller than AR (and only for one shot), so you're giving up less by not using a cloak cycle.  Of course the "not needing shields" aspect is only true if you sit in cover and cloak all the time.[/quote]

Actually, with a rapid-fire weapon (e.g. Locust/Tempest) you stay cloaked for quite a bit of time into the barrage; On my playthroughs, the enemy typically doesn't have time to react to my presence before dying.

[quote]Athenau wrote...
Medigel is limited.[/quote]

I've never run out on any mission, and before I got into the habit of using Unity regularly I was salvaging half of it.

[quote]Athenau wrote...You wrote "and those take up quite a bit of the game's mandatory fights."  The only time this is relevant is if you only do the mandatory fights.  The fact is that the collector missions make up only a small portion of the missions in this game.  Again, disingenuous.At least 2/3rds of the missions have you fighting shielded enemies (blue suns, eclipse, geth) or armored synthetics (loki, fenris, YMIR) where ED is useful.[/quote]

The problem is that Overload/Disruptor can easily take its place on  those same missions without using up your bonus slot.[quote]You can finish them off with ED too, and get a shield buff/recharge to boot.  Using AR on every enemy is overkill.
[/quote]
If the last enemy is dead, why exactly do you need a shield buff? And if there are enemies remaining, how is using AR overkill?? Your logic defeats itself!

[quote]Athenau wrote...

If you use unity every time your shields drop you're going to be running out of medigel real fast.[/quote]

I don't, only in emergencies. My shields drop all the time without me dying.

[quote]Athenau wrote...

Yeah, and then sit through the 9 second cooldown of barrier.  Are you serious?[/quote]

Your guns still work during cooldowns.

[quote]Athenau wrote...
Inferno is better than AP/warp for husks/krogan/vorcha.  Reave?  Maybe, but it's primarily a damage power which the soldier doesn't need.  Flashbang grenade is decent, but better on Kasumi (instant hit, nearly the same cooldown as on Shepherd).[/quote]

Infiltrators don't get Inferno. I also don't want to have to bring specific squadmates along to be effective (that includes relying on Kasumi for FBG.) A good build should be able to stand on its own, so that you can choose to bring along certain squadmates for other reasons, or function effectively if they are killed.

[quote]Athenau wrote...

I don't mind because it doesn't cost me anything.  You're swimming eezo after the first playthrough.[/quote]

You're actually claiming that the time to go to the research screen is some sort of onerous cost?  When you spend tons of time onboard anyway just getting your upgrades, talking to people, and using the galaxy map--please.  You may not like respeccing, but don't pretend that it's difficult or burdensome.[/quote]

It's an extra step that I don't need, would rather not deal with, and can be perfectly effective without.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 10 septembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[Athenau]

The problem is that Overload/Disruptor can easily take its place on those same missions without using up your bonus slot.

Overload/disruptor don't buff your shields. I'm pretty sure I've said this multiple times already.

If the last enemy is dead, why exactly do you need a shield buff? And if there are enemies remaining, how is using AR overkill?? Your logic defeats itself!

Who's talking about "the last enemy"? Have you never been in a fight where there are only one or two grunts in immediate view? You don't need AR for that, just use ED to top up your shields-- finish them off and move on.

I don't, only in emergencies. My shields drop all the time without me dying.

So you use it as...a panic button. Which is something I never claimed ED was.

Your guns still work during cooldowns.

How can you claim with a straight face that ED locking out AR is bad and then five seconds later say that barrier doing the same for twice as long is perfectly ok because "guns still work during cooldowns"? 

I also don't want to have to bring specific squadmates along to be effective (that includes relying on Kasumi for FBG.) A good build should be able to stand on its own, so that you can choose to bring along certain squadmates for other reasons, or function effectively if they are killed.

But FBG on a soldier is suboptimal compared to FB on Kasumi. I argue the hallmark of a good build is not bringing something that your squadmates can do better.

Modifié par Athenau, 10 septembre 2010 - 08:46 .

[JnEricsonx]

So, for a Engineer its a based-on-mission situation? I mean, what should I work with? I dont feel like taking a ammo, or a biotic power. I'd like to take Flashbang or Inferno Grenade, but apparently you have to manually aim the power?

[OniGanon]

For Soldier, Hardened AR + Disruptor Ammo means no need for ED

For Infiltrator or Engineer, ED is only good if you always respec for each mission

For Vanguard, cooldown takes too much away from Charge

For Adept, decent choice, though not my preferred

For Sentinel, good choice

[Mr_Raider]

JnEricsonx wrote...

So, for a Engineer its a based-on-mission situation? I mean, what should I work with? I dont feel like taking a ammo, or a biotic power. I'd like to take Flashbang or Inferno Grenade, but apparently you have to manually aim the power?

For my sentinel I ran with Ed 90% of the game. I respec'ed three times: once before collector ship to swap out with reave. After the collector ship i did Mordin and Grunt's loyalty mission.Then i respec'ed back to ED until Reaper IFF where I switched to AP ammo.

I did horizon with ED and Legion's loyalty with AP. Engineers and sentinels have other options, so he bonus powr will not make or break the build.

[PsyrenY]

Athenau wrote...

Overload/disruptor don't buff your shields. I'm pretty sure I've said this multiple times already.

And that advantage is cancelled out by the opportunity cost of your bonus slot. It's a textbook wash.

Athenau wrote...
Who's talking about "the last enemy"? Have you never been in a fight where there are only one or two grunts in immediate view? You don't need AR for that, just use ED to top up your shields-- finish them off and move on.

If the remaining enemies are not in view, you don't need you shields topped up by a power. By the time they get into position, they will have recharged on their own.

Athenau wrote...
So you use it as...a panic button. Which is something I never claimed ED was.

Then what is the shield buff for, if not an emergency? And if it isn't an emergency, it doesn't matter what power you choose.

Athenau wrote...

How can you claim with a straight face that ED locking out AR is bad and then five seconds later say that barrier doing the same for twice as long is perfectly ok because "guns still work during cooldowns"?

I don't understand you. The whole defense of your ED argument is that it boosts your shields so you can hang out of cover longer and keep firing. The GSB line does that and more, without being redundant in shield strip function with Overload/Disruptor. Is that or is that not the main advantage of ED you've been advocating?

Athenau wrote...
But FBG on a soldier is suboptimal compared to FB on Kasumi. I argue the hallmark of a good build is not bringing something that your squadmates can do better.

There is an entire thread around here about the virtues of FBG on Shep. I doubt we'll agree on what constitutes a good build; I like mine to be effective even without squadmates.