387 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Now, I don't even remotely blame Anora for not marrying the man who killed her father but it does strike me as a little hypocritical when she's shocked Alistair won't stick around and be king if Loghain doesn't die because Ferelden comes first...except if she's the one putting her issues before it when she thinks Alistair would be a fail!king.

There is a difference between that and bailing out on the country. She did not abandon Ferelden.
Now you might argue that she isn't helping either, but she did not abandon the country.

It's not rational, but I don't see much similarity here.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 octobre 2010 - 12:06 .

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

You know, I'm so sure that deleted line is so out of character.

When she first enters the Landsmeet, doesn't she say something like "My father is not the man we all used to know"?

That cut line is very similar to that.

Er, no, it is fundamentally different. One is about taking a stand and defying hero worship. The other is a daughter sentencing her own father to death.

I'm not so sure.

If you kill him, the ONLY ramification is that, if the HNM kills him himself, she won't marry him.  If the HNM duels Loghain, and turns and lets Ali kill him, she still marries the HNM.

Yes, we get the whole monument epilogue, but that's about it.  If you tell her Loghain may have to die, she doesn't fight against you, doesn't back out of the marriage.  She shows no opposition to you sentencing him to death, she simply won't marry you if you kill him yourself.

What is she supposed to do once it's decided and once even her father relents? He accepts it, she protests like any distressed daughter would.

And then goes ahead and marries the man who sentenced her father to death.

What should she do?  How about pull an Alistair, and leave?  Refuse the wedding under any circumstances?  CALL it murder, and ask for justice?  Point out as so many here do that the duel wasn't to the death?

Plenty of options.  She chooses only not to marry the man who ACTUALLY killed him.  That's it.

*edit - First, loves and reveres her father?  Where do we see that?

And what, exactly, is the difference between a line being cut and a line being replaced with a new one?  Either way, the line is gone.

Modifié par TJPags, 29 octobre 2010 - 12:06 .

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

You know, I'm so sure that deleted line is so out of character.

When she first enters the Landsmeet, doesn't she say something like "My father is not the man we all used to know"?

That cut line is very similar to that.

Er, no, it is fundamentally different. One is about taking a stand and defying hero worship. The other is a daughter sentencing her own father to death.

I'm not so sure.

If you kill him, the ONLY ramification is that, if the HNM kills him himself, she won't marry him.  If the HNM duels Loghain, and turns and lets Ali kill him, she still marries the HNM.

Yes, we get the whole monument epilogue, but that's about it.  If you tell her Loghain may have to die, she doesn't fight against you, doesn't back out of the marriage.  She shows no opposition to you sentencing him to death, she simply won't marry you if you kill him yourself.

What is she supposed to do once it's decided and once even her father relents? He accepts it, she protests like any distressed daughter would.

And then goes ahead and marries the man who sentenced her father to death.

What should she do?  How about pull an Alistair, and leave?  Refuse the wedding under any circumstances?  CALL it murder, and ask for justice?  Point out as so many here do that the duel wasn't to the death?

Plenty of options.  She chooses only not to marry the man who ACTUALLY killed him.  That's it.

None of these actions would bring him back. She knows this. She does her duty to Ferelden. As her father would have wanted her to. That's how I see it, anyway, She isn't a child who'll leave after throwing a pointless tantrum. Ahem.

Where do we see that she reveres him: In her trust.
Where do we see that she loves him? Execution scene, epilogue slides
Cut: Dialogue that was cut & not replaced with different lines. I.E. All the Cut Loghain scenes in the toolset that weren't replaced with different dialogue.

Modifié par Persephone, 29 octobre 2010 - 12:09 .

[nos_astra]

Persephone wrote...
1) Dignified? I'd not have been nearly as composed as Anora. I'd have sobbed and begged. And he was dignity itself.

2) Flat? Flat? Are we talking about Loghain here? O_o

3) So is Alistair. Yet his fangirls scream bloody murder if he gets LED AWAY to be executed. (Check the Youtube vids!) I did not say it was NORMAL to stand so close, I said it was normal to want to be close during your father's last moments.

1) From an in character perspective it looks really manipulative. In character as in not being limited by game restrictions. I simply don't like it the way it's done. Anora quite possibly has accused her father of treason at the Landsmeet (I know, she also might have not), so it's just a tad over the top. Both are people who don't like to be perceived as weak or human, certainly not to their peers.

2) Yes, the Loghain whose motivations are never explained before you decided his fate. I'm aware about what character he is intended to be, as opposed to the character that I did actually see in the game.

3) I never screamed about him being led away. I'm not the average fangirl.

Modifié par klarabella, 29 octobre 2010 - 12:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
2) Yes, the Loghain whose motivations are never explained before you decided his fate. I'm aware about what character he is intended to be, as opposed to the character that I did actually see in the game.

Then why is it some of us were able to understand him before sparing him and without reading the books?
I certainly did. I didn't know the details of his life, but I got a general sense of what the character is, and that's through codex entries, what people say about him and what he himself says before and during the Landsmeet (also, the Denerim cutscenes helped).

The game might not have spoon fed us all this, but we can think about it. We'll not know most  things as a matter of fact, but that's how real life is, we never really know. So I don't see what's the problem.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 octobre 2010 - 12:14 .

[Addai]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Geez that's harsh...though it would make sense if she's trying to distance herself from Loghain's actions. Doesn't really fit with the whole "Anora is her father's daughter" Comment that was made though.

(husband)

It doesn't fit the concept of it if you interpret it to mean a "dady's girl".


If however you see that as meaning "She a chip off the old block) , in terms of using intellect, ruthlessness etc. then it does fit.   Loghain was the sort to go against his own feeling for the good of the country.     This would simply being her putting the good of the country ahead of her own familial sentiments.

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
1) Dignified? I'd not have been nearly as composed as Anora. I'd have sobbed and begged. And he was dignity itself.

2) Flat? Flat? Are we talking about Loghain here? O_o

3) So is Alistair. Yet his fangirls scream bloody murder if he gets LED AWAY to be executed. (Check the Youtube vids!) I did not say it was NORMAL to stand so close, I said it was normal to want to be close during your father's last moments.

1) From an in character perspective it looks really manipulative. In character as in not being limited by game restrictions. I simply don't like it the way it's done. Anora quite possibly has accused her father of treason at the Landsmeet (I know, she also might have not), so it's just a tad over the top. Both are not people who like to be perceived as weak or human, certainly not to their peers.

2) Yes, the Loghain whose motivations are never explained before you decided his fate. I'm aware about what character he is intended to be, as opposed to the character that I did actually see in the game.

3) I never screamed about him being led away. I'm not the average fangirl.

1)  I believe even they don't care about how they are perceived at such a moment.

2) Oh, I know that people who hated him at first often grow very fond of him only after they recruit him.

3) No, you're definitely not. (I guess I am, hehehe) But even I cannot bring myself to have Alistair executed. I did it once and cried. I even get misty eyed if he (Esp. when unhardened) just leaves. I blame Steve Valentine.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Now, I don't even remotely blame Anora for not marrying the man who killed her father but it does strike me as a little hypocritical when she's shocked Alistair won't stick around and be king if Loghain doesn't die because Ferelden comes first...except if she's the one putting her issues before it when she thinks Alistair would be a fail!king.

There is a difference between that and bailing out on the country. She did not abandon Ferelden.
Now you might argue that she isn't helping either, but she did not abandon the country.

It's not rational, but I don't see much similarity here.

Keep in mind: Alistair refusing to marry Anora and Anora being shocked is before you even end up making the final decision on Loghain's fate which is also before Alistair says he's planning on leaving.

Anora refuses to marry Alistair when she knows that that will definitely put her on the throne and she's really putting her chances of getting on the throne at risk, especially since she's the one backing out of the agreement.

The only similarity I was really thinking about was that Anora feels that Alistair should put all of his feelings (however justified, unjustified, whatever) aside for Ferelden's sake and believes that she would do that. Anora feels that she is what is best for Ferelden. When Anora is faced with choosing between her feelings and Ferelden, she will choose her feelings even when it leads to someone she thinks is incompetent ruling. I think not marrying her father's murder is a more legitimate reason than not being king because Loghain's alive (and as hardened Alistair will go through with the marriage but Anora never will the game seems to support that) but it's still a case of Anora being so sure she'd put the country first and then doesn't.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Then why is it some of us were able to understand him before sparing him and without reading the books?

Because you have a soft spot for antagonist? Because the game offered you to recruit him and this would be the ultimate triumph for your character? The "cool" guy following you around. It's just a game, it doesn't matter that you weren't given any substantial reasons to do it. You were doing it because you can, you found you liked Loghain as a companion and - lucky you - after you recruited him he revealed his motivations.

Of course, assuming that you are simply way smarter than all those immature kids who kill spare him also works for you. It makes you look so sepcial.

Edit: Don't take this too serious. I know, you're a smart guy. Your Ostagar battle plan was fantastic.

Edit: After a good night's sleep, I think this post is worded a bit awkwardly. It sounds as though I'm speaking only to KoP.

Modifié par klarabella, 29 octobre 2010 - 07:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Sarah
Now I see what you mean. Granted.

Keep in mind that Anora is trained to be Queen and Alistair isn't. In her mind, she doesn't really need Alistair except for added legitimacy, but for Alsitair to be decent, he and Ferelden will need her. That's what I think she would think (whether she is right or not is not the issue).

So, Alistair refusing to marry her cand wanting to be king can be seen as disastrous by Anora (and I would concur based on that reaction). But Anora refusing to marry Alistair would not really generate such a disaster. So I don't think it's her feelings only at play here. Yes, she doesn't want to marry Alistair anymore, but she doesn't feel, imo, that she needs him to be a good Queen.

Now I wil agree that when it's clear everyone supports Alistair as king, that she should have stepped down. But to her credit, she doesn't try to pull a coup like Bhelen, which is not the greatest example of the latter's genius. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 octobre 2010 - 12:31 .

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

You know, I'm so sure that deleted line is so out of character.

When she first enters the Landsmeet, doesn't she say something like "My father is not the man we all used to know"?

That cut line is very similar to that.

Er, no, it is fundamentally different. One is about taking a stand and defying hero worship. The other is a daughter sentencing her own father to death.

I'm not so sure.

If you kill him, the ONLY ramification is that, if the HNM kills him himself, she won't marry him.  If the HNM duels Loghain, and turns and lets Ali kill him, she still marries the HNM.

Yes, we get the whole monument epilogue, but that's about it.  If you tell her Loghain may have to die, she doesn't fight against you, doesn't back out of the marriage.  She shows no opposition to you sentencing him to death, she simply won't marry you if you kill him yourself.

What is she supposed to do once it's decided and once even her father relents? He accepts it, she protests like any distressed daughter would.

And then goes ahead and marries the man who sentenced her father to death.

What should she do?  How about pull an Alistair, and leave?  Refuse the wedding under any circumstances?  CALL it murder, and ask for justice?  Point out as so many here do that the duel wasn't to the death?

Plenty of options.  She chooses only not to marry the man who ACTUALLY killed him.  That's it.

None of these actions would bring him back. She knows this. She does her duty to Ferelden. As her father would have wanted her to. That's how I see it, anyway, She isn't a child who'll leave after throwing a pointless tantrum. Ahem.

Where do we see that she reveres him: In her trust.
Where do we see that she loves him? Execution scene, epilogue slides
Cut: Dialogue that was cut & not replaced with different lines. I.E. All the Cut Loghain scenes in the toolset that weren't replaced with different dialogue.

Refusing to marry her father's killer doesn't bring him back either.

Frankly, if she was that broken up over her father's death, over the injustice of it, then yes, screw the country, I'm going home makes sense.  Or calling for a trial makes sense.  Or doing SOMETHING makes sense.  yet she does nothing.

As to revering him - what trust?  She doesn't trust him in some pretty early cutscenes.  She clearly doesnb't trust him when she's going behind his back and making deals with the Warden.  She clearly doesn't trust him when she's locked in Howe's castle.

The epilogue slides I grant you, but the execution?  See above.

As for cut dialogues, we're arguing semantics, which isn't worth our time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
Because you have a soft spot for antagonists, because the game offered you to recruit him and this would be the ultimate triumph for your character. The cool guy following you around. It's just a game, it doesn't matter that you weren't given any substantial reasons to do it. You were doing it because you can, you found you liked Loghain as a companion and - lucky you - after you recruited him he revealed his motivations.

Of course, assuming that you are simply way smarter than all those immature kids who kill him also works for you. It makes you so sepcial.

Ok, you are dismissing my reasons because you think I thought it was "cool" and because I can and then accuse me thinking I am smarter, when I did not imply such a thing (rather, it's what you said that did just that)? Why?

Anyways, no, I did not spare Loghain because I thought it was "cool" nor because I can. Do I have a soft spot for antagonists? No. Do I seek to understand them? Always. Did I feel like I understood him? Yes and I was vindicated.  And that was before sparing him, otherwise I would not have done so, simply to be cool.

When you played, you had a different perspective and that's fine, I can totally understand that. But why feel the need to dismiss others as essentially doing stuff cause they can and it's "cool" and claim in absolute that there are no other ways to understand the character?

"Of course, assuming that you are simply way smarter than all those immature kids who kill spare him also works for you. It makes you so sepcial. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]"

That sentence should not have been directed at me, I think.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 octobre 2010 - 12:30 .

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

You know, I'm so sure that deleted line is so out of character.

When she first enters the Landsmeet, doesn't she say something like "My father is not the man we all used to know"?

That cut line is very similar to that.

Er, no, it is fundamentally different. One is about taking a stand and defying hero worship. The other is a daughter sentencing her own father to death.

I'm not so sure.

If you kill him, the ONLY ramification is that, if the HNM kills him himself, she won't marry him.  If the HNM duels Loghain, and turns and lets Ali kill him, she still marries the HNM.

Yes, we get the whole monument epilogue, but that's about it.  If you tell her Loghain may have to die, she doesn't fight against you, doesn't back out of the marriage.  She shows no opposition to you sentencing him to death, she simply won't marry you if you kill him yourself.

What is she supposed to do once it's decided and once even her father relents? He accepts it, she protests like any distressed daughter would.

And then goes ahead and marries the man who sentenced her father to death.

What should she do?  How about pull an Alistair, and leave?  Refuse the wedding under any circumstances?  CALL it murder, and ask for justice?  Point out as so many here do that the duel wasn't to the death?

Plenty of options.  She chooses only not to marry the man who ACTUALLY killed him.  That's it.

None of these actions would bring him back. She knows this. She does her duty to Ferelden. As her father would have wanted her to. That's how I see it, anyway, She isn't a child who'll leave after throwing a pointless tantrum. Ahem.

Where do we see that she reveres him: In her trust.
Where do we see that she loves him? Execution scene, epilogue slides
Cut: Dialogue that was cut & not replaced with different lines. I.E. All the Cut Loghain scenes in the toolset that weren't replaced with different dialogue.

Refusing to marry her father's killer doesn't bring him back either.

Frankly, if she was that broken up over her father's death, over the injustice of it, then yes, screw the country, I'm going home makes sense.  Or calling for a trial makes sense.  Or doing SOMETHING makes sense.  yet she does nothing.

As to revering him - what trust?  She doesn't trust him in some pretty early cutscenes.  She clearly doesnb't trust him when she's going behind his back and making deals with the Warden.  She clearly doesn't trust him when she's locked in Howe's castle.

The epilogue slides I grant you, but the execution?  See above.

As for cut dialogues, we're arguing semantics, which isn't worth our time.

There is a line she won't cross. Even the most dutiful ruler will have a line. That's hers.

She suffers in silence. Would she really want another war/chaos to avenge her father? And would he want her to do that?

Are you saying it isn't HURTING her to see that execution? She frigging breaks down.

No, I wish we HAD replacements for all the cut Loghain dialogue.

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

There is a line she won't cross. Even the most dutiful ruler will have a line. That's hers.

She suffers in silence. Would she really want another war/chaos to avenge her father? And would he want her to do that?

Are you saying it isn't HURTING her to see that execution? She frigging breaks down.

No, I wish we HAD replacements for all the cut Loghain dialogue.

Sorry, I don't see it.  And keep in mind, I LIKE her character.  I think it rather odd that she reacts as she does.  Yet, that's how she reacts.  Whether she suffers in silence or not, well, maybe she does.  There's no evidence of it until the epilogue, but that IS powerful evidence, I grant.

She strikes me more as a practical person, than an emotional one.  One is not better than the other, yet it's acceptable (IMO) to be either.

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

There is a line she won't cross. Even the most dutiful ruler will have a line. That's hers.

She suffers in silence. Would she really want another war/chaos to avenge her father? And would he want her to do that?

Are you saying it isn't HURTING her to see that execution? She frigging breaks down.

No, I wish we HAD replacements for all the cut Loghain dialogue.

Sorry, I don't see it.  And keep in mind, I LIKE her character.  I think it rather odd that she reacts as she does.  Yet, that's how she reacts.  Whether she suffers in silence or not, well, maybe she does.  There's no evidence of it until the epilogue, but that IS powerful evidence, I grant.

She strikes me more as a practical person, than an emotional one.  One is not better than the other, yet it's acceptable (IMO) to be either.

Heh, that's fine. To tell the truth, reading your posts often shows me things I had not considered before. I'll definitely think on what you said. :happy:

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

There is a line she won't cross. Even the most dutiful ruler will have a line. That's hers.

She suffers in silence. Would she really want another war/chaos to avenge her father? And would he want her to do that?

Are you saying it isn't HURTING her to see that execution? She frigging breaks down.

No, I wish we HAD replacements for all the cut Loghain dialogue.

Sorry, I don't see it.  And keep in mind, I LIKE her character.  I think it rather odd that she reacts as she does.  Yet, that's how she reacts.  Whether she suffers in silence or not, well, maybe she does.  There's no evidence of it until the epilogue, but that IS powerful evidence, I grant.

She strikes me more as a practical person, than an emotional one.  One is not better than the other, yet it's acceptable (IMO) to be either.

Heh, that's fine. To tell the truth, reading your posts often shows me things I had not considered before. I'll definitely think on what you said. :happy:

Thank you.  See, that's really all I'm ever going for - to explain my POV, and all I ever ask is that people consider it.  Agree or not, that's fine with me, but think on it, at least. 

[Bruddajakka]

Both her, and Alistair throw temper tantrums if the Landsmeet doesn't go there way though. Hell the only person who excepts their defeat gracefully is Harrowmont.

[Sarah1281]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Both her, and Alistair throw temper tantrums if the Landsmeet doesn't go there way though. Hell the only person who excepts their defeat gracefully is Harrowmont.

Well if Andraste herself came to the Landsmeet and told Anora to swear fealty to Alistair or Alistair to stop freaking out about Warden Loghain then they may have reacted differently.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well if Andraste herself came to the Landsmeet and told Anora to swear fealty to Alistair or Alistair to stop freaking out about Warden Loghain then they may have reacted differently.

Only Bhelens (am I committing heresy by implying that there can be multiple Bhelens?) can tell her to ****** off.

And Howe would probably start crying and saying how it's not fair and that he really deserved more than this.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Well if Andraste herself came to the Landsmeet and told Anora to swear fealty to Alistair or Alistair to stop freaking out about Warden Loghain then they may have reacted differently.

Only Bhelens (am I committing heresy by implying that there can be multiple Bhelens?) can tell her to ****** off.

And Howe would probably start crying and saying how it's not fair and that he really deserved more than this.

It's a tough call but I think that as DSC and certain endings to WH that are distinctly non-canon prove, there are multiple universes out there and thus multiple Bhelens.

[Giggles_Manically]

Although each get more awesome and messianic than the last Sarah.



Or that at least is what my Unified Bhelen Theory says.

[Knight of Dane]

Don't know if anyone will ever see this, but thought i would post my new fanfic for Anora.
The True Ruler:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7169808/1/

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Although each get more awesome and messianic than the last Sarah.<br />
<br />
Or that at least is what my Unified Bhelen Theory says.

I think it's more than a theory, it's a universal law. Everytime someone, somewhere, playing dragon age origins supports Bhelen as king and crowns him, there is a scientificially detectable rise in the levels of awesome in the atmosphere.

[GreenDragon37]

I support Anora. I wanted Alistar and Anora to marry, but apparently if I wanted to keep Loghain (to die later against the Darkspawn) I would have to harden him, which I forgot to do. So, when it came down to choosing I picked Anora, and let Loghain live. Might as well use him, right? Alistar was too childish when I let Loghain live. Sure, he was a douche, I did not forget that, but our numbers were low and we had to rebuild. Plus, Loghain is still respected and skilled. He will go down fighting, that will be his redemption.

Instead, Alistar chooses to abandon his responsibilities to the Grey Wardens and Ferelden by leaving. Anora wouldn't do that. She is dedicated to Ferelden and is skilled in matters of court. I may have lost Alistar, but I gained a skilled and competent Queen. I did what I though was best for Ferelden at the time.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Support her?  I married her!  It kinda pisses me off that there was no option for flirty dialog, though.

And I'm annoyed that even with an elven bann, she comes down harsh on the alienage.  But other than that, yeah, I like her.

Modifié par Neverwinter_Knight77, 17 juillet 2011 - 03:25 .