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[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The same way all important world shattering descisions are made. A coin flip.

Seriously, though, In the epilogue where I had a bitter, angry Alistair marry Anora with daddy present and accounted for, it didn't happen. They both ruled together fine, even if they were both insanely miserable with each other.

Of course, we are speaking of IFs, then it is also possible to have a "What if Anora and Alistair get along smashingly, and rainbows and butterflies are expelled from them when they fart" conclusion. Since we are goping with IFs.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
If the Therin supporters are not pleased, they are not going to get behind the union as strongly, and are more likely to be receptive to chances to undermine or revolt.

In my epilogue, it didn't happen. So same thing.
Everyone accepted Cousland / Anora, just like everyone accepted Anora on her own and no one fought or even said anything to save Alsitair from the guillotine.
That's indication that no one cares that much.

Alsitair hating Anora is also indicated and I would rather not trust that he is going to let her do what she wants.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 septembre 2010 - 05:48 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Bruddajakka wrote...

I probably do. Give me a moment.

Edit: 

Anora weds Alistair and they rule together both in matters of court
and law, and both making personal appearances together, supervising the
reconstruction process, meeting the enthusiastic approval of the people
to the point where it was considered that the chaos of the civil war and
the landsmeet were worth it for delivering such beloved monarchs.

Thanks for digging that up. Seems I am mistaken. Ah, well.

I guess KoP is right, my epilogue did get bugged. Which is odd, because this is the only time I've ever known it to be so. I've never had problems with it ever that I knew of. I can't think of any mods that would have caused it, though, since most of my mods correct a bunch of game issues.

[Sarah1281]

Seriously, though, In the epilogue where I had a bitter, angry Alistair marry Anora with daddy present and accounted for, it didn't happen. They both ruled together fine, even if they were both insanely miserable with each other.

You can't realistically decide a throne with future knowledge like that.

You would be wrong. They lost. Fereldens aren't ones to let it go so lightly. Remeber, the codexes, they start wars over dog-namings. It's not about claim, it's about lingering resentment. And, out of all those nobles, given the way nobility has a tendancy to inbreed, then I'm sure there are probably many distant removed cousins to the line that might start crap.



If the Therin supporters are not pleased, they are not going to get behind the union as strongly, and are more likely to be receptive to chances to undermine or revolt.

Say these hitherto unseen obsessive Theirin supporters win and Anora is executed...then what? There are no more Theirins. They can't put one on the throne. It's over.

[Herr Uhl]

On a more or less random note, Ferelden is a really young nation, in a comparative sense to most of the other ones. It hasn't existed much longer than it was between the 4:th and 5:th blight, and being under Orlesian rule for about 100 years (or was it less?).

Edit: So it's been under Tehirin rule for about 300 years. Admittedly a respectable length for a dynasty. I wonder how long there has been an Aeducan on the Orzammar throne for comparative purposes.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 10 septembre 2010 - 05:55 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

@Sarah

Then they can fight amongst themselves for the throne.

Hey, no one ever said power struggles were rational.

@KoP: No one says anything if Anora gets sent to the guillotine, either. And, theorhetically, no one cares if your Warden loses to Loghain and gets the same.

Just because no one speaks up outright does not mean trouble isn't brewing under the surface, in secret.
And as far as Alistair hating Anora, it was only indicated in the ending where I spared Loghain, and did the DR. Beyond that, the two got along quite well in more happy circumstances, with Loggy dead. If anything, it is more likely Anora will have a harder time liking Alistair, if their wedding scene was anything to go by.

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 10 septembre 2010 - 05:54 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
@KoP: No one says anything if Anora gets sent to the guillotine, either. And, theorhetically, no one cares if your Warden loses to Loghain and gets the same.

Just because no one speaks up outright does not mean trouble isn't brewing under the surface, in secret.

Perhaps, but we have no proof of this. And even if there is, the fact that their beloved last Therein is dead means they've already lost. So they will have to get onboard whether they like it or not. The fact that Eamon gets on board shows a lot and he is THE Therein supporter.
If Alistair lived, then they attempt a rebellion. If not, they do nothing and accept their defeat.

It's very rare for Monarchs to make everyone happy and it's not necessarily a sign that they are good rulers anyways. 

EDIT: even if he doesn't hate her, Alistair says he doesn't want her to get her way. Since I believe Anora to be the better ruler and reformer, this is bad for me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 septembre 2010 - 05:58 .

[Sarah1281]

Edit: So it's been under Tehirin rule for about 300 years. Admittedly a respectable length for a dynasty. I wonder how long there has been an Aeducan on the Orzammar throne for comparative purposes.

Endrin was the ninth successive Aeducan king and the Paragon-King Eithnar Bemot was on the throne during the previous Blight 400 years ago.

[Bruddajakka]

Hell from what we've seen unless Teagan's an exception both the Therein line, and the Guerrin line are probably going to be gone in a generation or two. Even sooner if you have Alistair executed which is the pragmatic thing to do.

Edit: Well unless Alistair isn't the child Maric had with Fiona.

Modifié par Bruddajakka, 10 septembre 2010 - 06:00 .

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

I probably do. Give me a moment.

Edit: 

Anora weds Alistair and they rule together both in matters of court
and law, and both making personal appearances together, supervising the
reconstruction process, meeting the enthusiastic approval of the people
to the point where it was considered that the chaos of the civil war and
the landsmeet were worth it for delivering such beloved monarchs.

Thanks for digging that up. Seems I am mistaken. Ah, well.

I guess KoP is right, my epilogue did get bugged. Which is odd, because this is the only time I've ever known it to be so. I've never had problems with it ever that I knew of. I can't think of any mods that would have caused it, though, since most of my mods correct a bunch of game issues.

How do you get a "bug" that inserts an epilogue slide that says that Alistair and Anora's rule leads to a Golden Age??  Obviously, that epilogue slide exists or we wouldn't have seen it.  A bug would be something like "much to Anora's displeasure" when Anora is in the tower rather than co-ruling (I do get that one, if I pre-arrange the Anora marriage but it doesn't happen).

[Herr Uhl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Edit: So it's been under Tehirin rule for about 300 years. Admittedly a respectable length for a dynasty. I wonder how long there has been an Aeducan on the Orzammar throne for comparative purposes.

Endrin was the ninth successive Aeducan king and the Paragon-King Eithnar Bemot was on the throne during the previous Blight 400 years ago.

Ok.

I brought this up due to the starting wars over the names of dogs thing, That was likely during the slightly more barbarian phase of the lands east of the frostbacks.

[CalJones]

Well, I'm planning on an Anora-Alistair union in my current game so I'll let you know what ending card I get. I'm pretty sure it'll be the beloved monarchs though.

[Bruddajakka]

It will be. I literally just checked it.

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think Howe told Loghain that he wanted to kill Anora. I think he told him that he wanted to remove Anora from the throne and make Loghain king instead. Or am I wrong? I don't know I forgot.
Loghain definately did not know what was going on imo. He thought he could control Howe while in reality, Howe was too devious for that.

It actually IS in the dialog, that Howe wanted her killed.  Here it is:

Warden: Were you really going to kill Anora?
Loghain: Anora always did have a flair for the dramatic. She could have been a bard.
Warden: Why would she invent such a story?
Loghain: I didn't say that.
Loghain: Howe suggested the possibility; I rejected it, of course. Undoubtedly, that discussion was the inspiration for her story.

Edit: This snippet completely changed my mind about the whole "Rescue the Queen" quest.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 septembre 2010 - 06:32 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Perhaps, but we have no proof of this. And even if there is, the fact that their beloved last Therein is dead means they've already lost. So they will have to get onboard whether they like it or not. The fact that Eamon gets on board shows a lot and he is THE Therein supporter.
If Alistair lived, then they attempt a rebellion. If not, they do nothing and accept their defeat.

We have no evidence of this, either. It's all really down to interpretation.

Ehhh...don't get me started on Eamon. He's a Therin supporter so long as he gets an advisory position, ya know.

It's very rare for Monarchs to make everyone happy and it's not necessarily a sign that they are good rulers anyways.

No, but it helps. A happy population is going to be more receptive to the ruler's whims, more accepting and trusting of change than an unhappy, scheming, plotting population.

EDIT: even if he doesn't hate her, Alistair says he doesn't want her to get her way. Since I believe Anora to be the better ruler and reformer, this is bad for me.

It depends on how you handle the marriage arrangement, and what you do. You probably haven't, but I have played through where Alistair was far less petulant and opposing of Anora. If you join them in good circumstances and make the right decisions, he's happy to rule jointly and cooperatively. Of course, it all depends on the character you play and how you treat both. Alistair will be quite petulant and stubborn, determined to make sure Anora doesn't get a carte blanche to do what she likes, if he is led to believe that it's what you are gunning for.

[ejoslin]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

The only time I have ever gotten the Golden Age is with Cousland/Anora. They may give a similar ending to a Cousland/Alistair if you guys aren't in a romance, and still wed.

No, in a political marriage with Alistair, the Warden is looked upon and the ruler and savior, but that's the only real difference for Alistair-is-King slides.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

Well, I'm planning on an Anora-Alistair union in my current game so I'll let you know what ending card I get. I'm pretty sure it'll be the beloved monarchs though.

I've gotten that one, too, hence why I was speculating it could be tied to what the Warden does.  In the game where I saw the golden age slide, my Warden remained Alistair's mistress but left to rebuild the Wardens.  My thought was that having a Warden chancellor would lead to more dissension between Alistair and Anora, whereas an absent Warden would lead to a more cooperative co-reign.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 septembre 2010 - 06:37 .

[ejoslin]

Ok, according to ALL epilogues, Alistair + Anora = good ruling pair. Unhardened Alistair is loved by the people and Anora kicks ass governing. Hardened Alistair + Anora make a good ruling pair. I can copy/paste the slides, but really, there's no real need -- we've all seen them.

To get the "maybe a golden age if the two behave themselves" is only with Cousland/Anora. Alistair + Cousland it really depends if it's a love match or a political match -- but it's still good. People love Alistair, and whether the new queen is seen as a ruler in her own right or the very beloved bride depends on whether Alistair was in a romance/still in love or if it's a purely political match.

Edit: Doing a search for "Golden Age" in the sldeshow file ends up with only one result.  That doesn't mean there aren't other positive slides.  But there is only one golden age slide, and the Cousland/Anora marriage is mentioned prominently.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 septembre 2010 - 06:40 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

How do you get a "bug" that inserts an epilogue slide that says that Alistair and Anora's rule leads to a Golden Age??  Obviously, that epilogue slide exists or we wouldn't have seen it.  A bug would be something like "much to Anora's displeasure" when Anora is in the tower rather than co-ruling (I do get that one, if I pre-arrange the Anora marriage but it doesn't happen).

Then we need to figure out exactly what the epilogue triggers with.

I am wondering if it could have something to do with romancing Alistair. I might have gotten that ending with my DN, who never romanced Alistair, hardened him, then spared Loghain and made him (Alistair) marry Anora. My DC remained his mistress.

It could be from a playthrough where my Warden never romanced him, or anyone, for that matter. Maybe if Alistaior and the Warden were never an item, Alistair might work better with Anora, not having past or present baggage.

I deleted my old DN save because I am redoing her completely, though I plan on the same general ending. Now I am really curious. I shall have to wait till I finish the game to see if that's the trigger.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Well, I'm planning on an Anora-Alistair union in my current game so I'll let you know what ending card I get. I'm pretty sure it'll be the beloved monarchs though.

I've gotten that one, too, hence why I was speculating it could be tied to what the Warden does.  In the game where I saw the golden age slide, my Warden remained Alistair's mistress but left to rebuild the Wardens.  My thought was that having a Warden chancellor would lead to more dissension between Alistair and Anora, whereas an absent Warden would lead to a more cooperative co-reign.

I have done Alistair/Anora marriage without the Warden being in any way involved with Alistair or chancellor and still no golden age slide.

[ejoslin]

Ok, I'll edit this point in a minute with ALL the slides on it.  There really is no golden age except for, well, Cousland + Anora.

here are ALL the slides:
Alistair sole king/marrying player:

Alistair Changed:

In the months that followed his coronation, Alistair surprised many by studying the art of governance and doing his best to rule the kingdom with a fair and even hand. He proved quite popular with the people, his humor and easy grace winning them over as much as his willingness to sneak out of the castle and mingle in the lower-class taverns on occasion.

Goes to:

Player Marrying Alistair: 

(Romance Active or Still in Love)  married King Alistair in a lavish ceremony six months after his coronation, becoming the princess-consort of Ferelden. The two toured the nation soon afterwards, and the people were ecstatic to see how the king adored his new bride.

(Political Match)  married King Alistair in a lavish ceremony six months after his coronation, becoming the princess-consort of Ferelden. As both their savior and new ruler, she proved incredibly popular among the people, and Alistair allowed his bride a great deal of leeway to act as she wished.

OR Goes to: (no chancellor card for political marriage btw)

(Player is Chancellor) , as Alistair's chancellor, was a regular face at court--at least for a time. Alistair deferred to his advisor's judgment on most matters, and when the king traveled away from the capital, as he did often, he was more than willing to leave the throne entirely in 's hands.

Alistair Unchanged:

In the months that followed his coronation, Alistair proved to be a popular king... if largely unwilling to involve himself in matters of governing. He traveled often, making appearances in towns throughout Ferelden to the great delight of the commoners. They referred to him as a king with the "common touch," even if a few knew it was a simple aversion to life at court.

Marriage cards are the same

Player is Chancellor (, as Alistair's chancellor, was the face most often seen at court. In truth, the chancellor ruled the nation, and did so with King Alistair's blessing. Whenever the chancellor left Denerim on personal affairs, the business of the court effectively came to a standstill.)


Ok, Alistair + Anora gets this:

Alistair Changed: 

In the months that followed their wedding, Alistair and Anora proved themselves a surprisingly effective pair. Alistair spent a great deal of time at court, showing willingness to learn the art of governing from Anora and often deferring to her judgment--and no one was more surprised by this than Anora herself.

The two of them made numerous outings into Denerim and the other settlements in Ferelden, supervising the reconstruction process and greeting their subjects personally, much to the commoners' enthusiastic approval. Many said the chaos of the civil war and Landsmeet were worth it for delivering such beloved monarchs.

(Player is Chancellor) As the new chancellor, the former Grey Warden was seen often at court--at least for a time. With both the king and queen actively involved in running their kingdom, the need for an advisor diminished with time. continued to enjoy great popularity in Ferelden, however, and maintained considerable influence in the running of the kingdom.


Alistair Unchanged:

In the months that followed their wedding, Alistair and Anora fell into the routine of ruling Ferelden. Anora was a skilled governor, adept at matters of court and more than willing to spend her time judging matters of law from the throne... and Alistair was quite happy to let her do so. He traveled frequently, making personal appearances that delighted commoners to no end.

(Player is Chancellor, Loghain Executed at the Landsmeet): As the chancellor, was seen often at court, usually arguing with Queen Anora over matters of state. The former Grey Warden enjoyed King Alistair's full confidence, however, and thus great influence in running the kingdom--more than the queen would like, probably, but she had little choice.

(Player is Chancellor, Loghain NOT Executed at the Landsmeet): As the new chancellor, the former Grey Warden is seen often at court--at least for a time. With the king seldom seen and disinclined to offer the chancellor his support, Queen Anora has the most sway over the running of the kingdom and arguments with her chancellor generally end in her victory. The hero of Ferelden continues to enjoy great popularity in Ferelden, however, and maintains considerable political influence.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 septembre 2010 - 06:54 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
We have no evidence of this, either. It's all really down to interpretation.

But we do have evidence that ifr Alistair is alive, there are rebellions and when he is not, there is no open opposition. Which shows that even if thsoe therein fanatics exist, their willingness to revolt is lessened if there are no more Thereins.

No, but it helps. A happy population is going to be more receptive to the ruler's whims, more accepting and trusting of change than an unhappy, scheming, plotting population.

There is no such thing as a scheming plotting population. It's rather schemers and plotters who take advantage of an unhappy population.
If Anora's reforms bring a Golden Age of prosperity, the population will be happy. Like they say, the masses only care about food, shelter and entertainment. I don't think they care who is on the throne as long as they get all those things.

Also, how do you know that there aren't Loghain supporters plotting and scheming too? We know that Howe supporters will also do that in Awakening. What about some who still want to remove Anora from the throne even if she married a therein because they think she is guilty like Loghain?

Schemers and plotters are a reality in every political setting. It's no different than for Ali / Anora, or Cousland / Anora. Except they have a strogner case in Cousland / Anora if Alsitair is alive.

It depends on how you handle the marriage arrangement, and what you do. You probably haven't, but I have played through where Alistair was far less petulant and opposing of Anora.

I thought it depended solely ojn whether he was hardened or not.
Unhardened Alsitair lets her do what she wants, which is a good thing. Hardened, not quite.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, I'll edit this point in a minute with ALL the slides on it.  There really is no golden age except for, well, Cousland + Anora.

 I know I've seen it, and I've never roleld a male character. Only one Cousland, a female who never became anything.

I am eager to see all the slides, because if I somehow got the golden age, but it's only possible with Anora+Cousland, then it's definitely a weird glitch, especially since Alistair was certainly king.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
It actually IS in the dialog, that Howe wanted her killed.  Here it is:

Thanks for posting.

Well Howe had accumulated a vast amount of power by that time, so it would have been difficult for Loghain to eliminate him, he would have lost a valuable ally. Still I am surprised he didn't break his teeth at least.

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
It actually IS in the dialog, that Howe wanted her killed.  Here it is:

Thanks for posting.

Well Howe had accumulated a vast amount of power by that time, so it would have been difficult for Loghain to eliminate him, he would have lost a valuable ally. Still I am surprised he didn't break his teeth at least.

Edit: Gah, responded completely wrong.  Yeh, I was surprised when I had read that.  Howe had her prisoner and had expressed openly a desire to kill her.  She had to have believed her life was in danger.  As soon as Howe could frame someone for it, she would have died.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 septembre 2010 - 06:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thanks again ejoslin for posting the slides.

Of course that does not mean that Alsitair / Anora is a horrible union. I think Alistair unhardened with Anora is good. But I believe that Cousland / Anora is *potentially* the best match.