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[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But we do have evidence that ifr Alistair is alive, there are rebellions and when he is not, there is no open opposition. Which shows that even if thsoe therein fanatics exist, their willingness to revolt is lessened if there are no more Thereins.

Remember in Awakening. You had no open rebellions during the campaign, just quiet plots and attempts. The worst kind iof dissent is large and healthy dissent in the shadows. Rebellions less so.

There is no such thing as a scheming plotting population. It's rather schemers and plotters who take advantage of an unhappy population.

For getting anally semantic with me, I shall be forced to scourge you. Publically.

The population may not be doing the plotting, but they are tools of the plot, and thus, part of it. Kerosene for the fires.

You know what I meant.

If Anora's reforms bring a Golden Age of prosperity, the population will be happy. Like they say, the masses only care about food, shelter and entertainment. I don't think they care who is on the throne as long as they get all those things.

You are absolutely right here. So, if the masses are not fed, entertained, and diapered, you will have problems.

Now, though we both agree the elves are not important in of themselves, discontent and ruler rage is not an isolated disease. It mutates and spreads, in different forms. The discontent and the riots, and subsequent alienage purge, will spread tension and unrest in various forms to other less deprived parts of the population. Actions have domino effects.

We see this happen alot in our modern day world with various minority populations.

Schemers and plotters are a reality in every political setting. It's no different than for Ali / Anora, or Cousland / Anora. Except they have a strogner case in Cousland / Anora if Alsitair is alive.

Better we have them out in the open where we can see them than fomenting in the shadows.

I thought it depended solely ojn whether he was hardened or not.
Unhardened Alsitair lets her do what she wants, which is a good thing. Hardened, not quite.

When my DC married Alistair off to Anora, I got none of that "she won't get her way" stuff. Mainly cuz I killed Loggy. But both parties, though initially apprehensive about it, were pretty comfortable and optimistic working together. Yes, Alistair was hardened, my DC his mistress.

During that wedding ceremony, when Alistair and Anora were walking to recieve the blessing of the grand cleric, Alistair reached for Anora's hand, though she swatted it away irritably. What that said to me is that Alistair at the very least, did not hate, nor was he wanting to antagonize Anora, but join with her.

My DC set up the union and presented it positively and supportively, and gave encouragement to the union. Thus, the union was far more harmonious.

[ejoslin]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, I'll edit this point in a minute with ALL the slides on it.  There really is no golden age except for, well, Cousland + Anora.

 I know I've seen it, and I've never roleld a male character. Only one Cousland, a female who never became anything.

I am eager to see all the slides, because if I somehow got the golden age, but it's only possible with Anora+Cousland, then it's definitely a weird glitch, especially since Alistair was certainly king.

You would have noticed the rest of the slide, though.  That slide is:

<FirstName/> married Queen Anora in a lavish ceremony six months after her coronation, becoming the prince-consort of Ferelden. Many said that if the two did not end up vying for control of the throne, they would usher in a new golden age not seen since King Calenhad first united the barbarian tribes.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ejoslin wrote...


You would have noticed the rest of the slide, though.  That slide is:

married Queen Anora in a lavish ceremony six months after her coronation, becoming the prince-consort of Ferelden. Many said that if the two did not end up vying for control of the throne, they would usher in a new golden age not seen since King Calenhad first united the barbarian tribes.

But that wasn't the slide, though. The slide I remember stated that Alistair and Anora ruled together, and Anora was building her university and such, and Alistair had popular support, and a new golden age for ferelden was ushered in. I remembered it, because I remember there was a long debate on why marrying the two together was the best possible union for Ferelden in the long run.

[Sarah1281]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

ejoslin wrote...


You would have noticed the rest of the slide, though.  That slide is:

married Queen Anora in a lavish ceremony six months after her coronation, becoming the prince-consort of Ferelden. Many said that if the two did not end up vying for control of the throne, they would usher in a new golden age not seen since King Calenhad first united the barbarian tribes.

But that wasn't the slide, though. The slide I remember stated that Alistair and Anora ruled together, and Anora was building her university and such, and Alistair had popular support, and a new golden age for ferelden was ushered in. I remembered it, because I remember there was a long debate on why marrying the two together was the best possible union for Ferelden in the long run.

Is there any way you could redo that ending? Because the lack of anything in the toolset saying anything about an Alistair/Anora golden age really makes it seem like you're just remembering it wrong. After all, people thinking that whole mess with Howe and Loghain was worth it because of how awesome Alistair and Anora together are is really saying something.

[ejoslin]

The only slide that has the word "University" in it (via the search function) is an Anora solo queen/married to player card. It says:

In the months that followed her coronation, Anora proved herself an adept ruler. Trade agreements with other lands quickly brought new funds into the royal coffers, and with them, the queen saw the capital rebuilt. The army was restored, laws were passed to encourage freeholders to produce sufficient harvests, and plans were conceived for a university.

Edit: The Cousland/Anora marriage gets both those cards (the University and the possible golden age).  It really can't come up for the Alistair/Anora one because the golden age one clearly states it's the warden+Anora.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 septembre 2010 - 07:13 .

[nos_astra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
But that wasn't the slide, though. The slide I remember stated that Alistair and Anora ruled together, and Anora was building her university and such, and Alistair had popular support, and a new golden age for ferelden was ushered in. I remembered it, because I remember there was a long debate on why marrying the two together was the best possible union for Ferelden in the long run.

I remember the thread and the slide, too.

Where is it gone? Maybe one of the first patches killed it? Or was it a glitch?

Modifié par klarabella, 10 septembre 2010 - 07:10 .

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
But that wasn't the slide, though. The slide I remember stated that Alistair and Anora ruled together, and Anora was building her university and such, and Alistair had popular support, and a new golden age for ferelden was ushered in. I remembered it, because I remember there was a long debate on why marrying the two together was the best possible union for Ferelden in the long run.

I remember the thread and the slide, too.

Where is it gone? Maybe one of the first patches killed it? Or was it a glitch?

It could not be a glitch.  While it's possible it was removed, it's not likely.  Most dialog that was removed from the game is kept in and given a flag that causes it not to trigger.

Edit: More likely it was caused by a mod that changed the slideshow.  There is a mod that may have done that.  It also changed "princess consort" to "Queen consort" so, well, yeh.

Second edit: Went over the readme to the mod I was thinking of and it seems unlikely that the change was made there.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 septembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Is there any way you could redo that ending? Because the lack of anything in the toolset saying anything about an Alistair/Anora golden age really makes it seem like you're just remembering it wrong. After all, people thinking that whole mess with Howe and Loghain was worth it because of how awesome Alistair and Anora together are is really saying something.

I am working on it. Like I said, I just re-rolled my DN and am doing her whole story over again. I am pretty sure that was the one where I got that particular ending, since it was the first time I had married Alistair and Anora, and the first time I had not romanced Alistair.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Remember in Awakening. You had no open rebellions during the campaign, just quiet plots and attempts. The worst kind iof dissent is large and healthy dissent in the shadows. Rebellions less so.

They were the ones to have incited the riot actually.
But yes sure, it is dangerous. But what would Therein supporters scheme for? If there are no more Thereins, what's the point?
 
You can never eliminate hidden dissent, that's a reality that will always exist. What you can do is destroy their hopes. If Alistair is dead, then it's irrlevent whether they like the monarchs or not, they have nothing to scheme for. Unless they start scheming for their own benefit and in which case, that will be present regardless of regime.

You are absolutely right here. So, if the masses are not fed, entertained, and diapered, you will have problems.

 
Of course. Same could be said for any ruler, Ali / Anora included. But since the epilogue doesn't mention any of that in both situations, then it won't happen in the short future at least. 

Now, though we both agree the elves are not important in of themselves, discontent and ruler rage is not an isolated disease. It mutates and spreads, in different forms. The discontent and the riots, and subsequent alienage purge, will spread tension and unrest in various forms to other less deprived parts of the population. Actions have domino effects.

We see this happen alot in our modern day world with various minority populations.

Except that elves are an isolated community and the rest don't care for them. In fact, as the City Elf epilogues show, when the elves get prosperous and recieve more rights, the rest are enraged. So it's safe to say that the Elven riot has no effect as no one cares.

And Anora's reforms will keep the majority happy.
I can think of no ruler where they managed to be popular with all parts of the population anyways. When popularity doesn't work, fear does the job quite well. And that's why I think Anora is a good ruler. She is capable of being loved and feared if need be. 

When the Awakenign rioters came, the best option was not to please them, but to terrify them.  

When my DC married Alistair off to Anora, I got none of that "she won't get her way" stuff. Mainly cuz I killed Loggy. But both parties, though initially apprehensive about it, were pretty comfortable and optimistic working together. Yes, Alistair was hardened, my DC his mistress.

So it also depends on Loghain.

Still, if Alsitair is happy to collaborate, then Anora isn't. So it's either Alsitair being an ass, or Anora, depending on what you do with Loghain. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 septembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

ejoslin wrote...


You would have noticed the rest of the slide, though.  That slide is:

married Queen Anora in a lavish ceremony six months after her coronation, becoming the prince-consort of Ferelden. Many said that if the two did not end up vying for control of the throne, they would usher in a new golden age not seen since King Calenhad first united the barbarian tribes.

But that wasn't the slide, though. The slide I remember stated that Alistair and Anora ruled together, and Anora was building her university and such, and Alistair had popular support, and a new golden age for ferelden was ushered in. I remembered it, because I remember there was a long debate on why marrying the two together was the best possible union for Ferelden in the long run.

It's like Bigfoot.  We know what we saw, we know it wasn't a bear, but until we produce proof of one in the wild, no one's going to believe us. 

Was this a recent pt, Skadi?  I was thinking that some of the epilogues looked different after Awakening came out and I wondered if one of the patches had changed them.

[Addai]

Ok, here is the blog post of the woman who posted recently in the Alistair thread, a fairly new player.

"In Alistair's eyes this makes a mockery of justice, desecrates the meaning that the Grey Wardens had held for him, and traps him in a marriage with a conniving and manipulative Queen who will always remind him of the hatred he holds for her father. He'll never forgive you if you do this to him: but it also results in a Golden Age for the kingdom. In the game's logic, you see, Alistair's mercy and compassion are well-balanced by the Queen's ruthlessness and capacity for manipulation, as well as her political connections, and so the sacrifice of his happiness and your friendship wins the best possible outcome for your people."

So I'm guessing she got the slide, too.  I asked her about it over there, but either she hasn't been back or didn't see it.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Ok, here is the blog post of the woman who posted recently in the Alistair thread, a fairly new player.

"In Alistair's eyes this makes a mockery of justice, desecrates the meaning that the Grey Wardens had held for him, and traps him in a marriage with a conniving and manipulative Queen who will always remind him of the hatred he holds for her father. He'll never forgive you if you do this to him: but it also results in a Golden Age for the kingdom. In the game's logic, you see, Alistair's mercy and compassion are well-balanced by the Queen's ruthlessness and capacity for manipulation, as well as her political connections, and so the sacrifice of his happiness and your friendship wins the best possible outcome for your people."

So I'm guessing she got the slide, too.  I asked her about it over there, but either she hasn't been back or didn't see it.

Is 'golden age' a quote from the epilogue slide or is she just going off of the 'Anora and Alistair together made all of Howe's, Loghain's, and Eamon's political BS completely worth it'?

Modifié par Sarah1281, 10 septembre 2010 - 07:32 .

[CalJones]

Ooh the plot thickens!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Or maybe she remembered wrong. It happens, I mis-interpret epilogue slides too.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Ok, here is the blog post of the woman who posted recently in the Alistair thread, a fairly new player.

"In Alistair's eyes this makes a mockery of justice, desecrates the meaning that the Grey Wardens had held for him, and traps him in a marriage with a conniving and manipulative Queen who will always remind him of the hatred he holds for her father. He'll never forgive you if you do this to him: but it also results in a Golden Age for the kingdom. In the game's logic, you see, Alistair's mercy and compassion are well-balanced by the Queen's ruthlessness and capacity for manipulation, as well as her political connections, and so the sacrifice of his happiness and your friendship wins the best possible outcome for your people."

So I'm guessing she got the slide, too.  I asked her about it over there, but either she hasn't been back or didn't see it.

Is 'golden age' a quote from the epilogue slide or is she just going off of the 'Anora and Alistair together made all of Howe's, Loghain's, and Eamon's political BS completely worth it'?

Where would she have gotten that phrase as a new player if she hadn't seen the slide?  Where would I have gotten it, since as I said this pt was before I was posting on the forums and I'd never played an HNM-Anora?

I can believe that one of us misremembered, but not several of us.  I don't really care, but it's just a curious thing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well "golden age" isn't exactly a rare phrase that needs to be read before beign used. But yes it is weird. Maybe a patch changed it or somehting?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 septembre 2010 - 07:38 .

[Sarah1281]

'Golden Age' is not a term exclusive to DA. It is a real term used retroactively to describe a highlight in a nation's history. The way Alistair and Anora's joint reign is described SOUNDS like a golden age but it isn't actually called one.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well "golden age" isn't exactly a rare phrase that needs to be read before beign used. But yes it is weird. Maybe a patch changed it or somehting?

But if a patch changed it, new players wouldn't be getting it, would they?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
They were the ones to have incited the riot actually.
But yes sure, it is dangerous. But what would Therein supporters scheme for? If there are no more Thereins, what's the point?[/quote]

Petty revenge. Chance to advance one's position, ect.
 
[quote]You can never eliminate hidden dissent, that's a reality that will always exist. What you can do is destroy their hopes. If Alistair is dead, then it's irrlevent whether they like the monarchs or not, they have nothing to scheme for. Unless they start scheming for their own benefit and in which case, that will be present regardless of regime. [/quote]

Sure, it still exists. But you don't add fuel to the fire.

A dead heir won't stop rebellions and dissent. And it creates an even bigger problem with succession.

Howe was dead, his family stripped of name. Didn't keep the Amaranthine nobility from trying to overthrow you.


[quote]Except that elves are an isolated community and the rest don't care for them. In fact, as the City Elf epilogues show, when the elves get prosperous and recieve more rights, the rest are enraged. So it's safe to say that the Elven riot has no effect as no one cares. [/quote]

The city elf epilogues show this only if you make one of them bann. The problem is elevating an elf, who is considered an inferior and untrustworthy person, above the masses, who still hate them. In other epilogues, this does not happen, including those where Alistair and Anora rule jointly and the alienage doesn't get purged. The reaction could be compared to, let's say, right after the American Civil war, elevating a freed slave to a position of power in the South. People were still recovering from the war, racism was standard practice, and elevating a "sub-human" to a position of power, would have caused riots.

[quote]And Anora's reforms will keep the majority happy.
I can think of no ruler where they managed to be popular with all parts of the population anyways. When popularity doesn't work, fear does the job quite well. And that's why I think Anora is a good ruler. She is capable of being loved and feared if need be. [/quote]

I agree Anora does fine on her own. However, since this isn't the real world, we also get a king who is the more public and personable face of the ruling couple, and thus, her reforms would be better recieved. Fear, like love, has limited milage alone when ruling. I do not think Anora has the capability to be loved like Alistair, and Alistair does not have the visionary sights that Anora does.

[quote]When the Awakenign rioters came, the best option was not to please them, but to terrify them.  [/quote]

Yes, it is. With both the nobility and the peasants. Hold noble children as "guests" (i.e. hostages) and you never have to see the nobles rebel, either.



[quote]So it also depends on Loghain.[quote]

In part, yes.

[quote]Still, if Alsitair is happy to collaborate, then Anora isn't. So it's either Alsitair being an ass, or Anora, depending on what you do with Loghain. [/quote]

Anora wasn't an ass. A cold fish, yes. My guess is she wanted to remind Alistair that it is a business arrangement, as well as curb any tendancies toward un-regal public displays of affection. But she said in the post corronation that she could easily grow fond of him, and that she thinks the union promises to be very productive.

She just doesn't want to hold his hand in public. But that's her, and i think that's what's expected of royalty anyway.

If Loghain is still alive, Alistair feels betrayed by friends and pushed into a corner, and since his archenemy is his father in law now, hardened alistair is going to be far more aggressive and inhibitive of anything Anora plans, which in his mind, may as well be Loghain. That is when he becomes most hostile. Not rational or productive. But, alas, my DN is a **** that way.

[Herr Uhl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

'Golden Age' is not a term exclusive to DA. It is a real term used retroactively to describe a highlight in a nation's history. The way Alistair and Anora's joint reign is described SOUNDS like a golden age but it isn't actually called one.

Theirs is a "golden age" but they could go more into specifics when both of the characters are theirs. "Golden age" is vague enough to fit many characters.

[ejoslin]

I do suspect a mod at this point. Too bad my toolset is too broken to load in B2Bs right now.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

It's like Bigfoot.  We know what we saw, we know it wasn't a bear, but until we produce proof of one in the wild, no one's going to believe us. 

Was this a recent pt, Skadi?  I was thinking that some of the epilogues looked different after Awakening came out and I wondered if one of the patches had changed them.

It must be government mind control waves beaming in making me think I saw it.

My DN playthrough was pre-1.03, pre-Awakening. I had downloaded only dialogue tweaks, which as far as I know, does not effect epilogue slides in terms of rewriting them. It was the only mod of that nature I had. The only other mod I had was the camp storage chest and a recolor of the blood dragon armor so it didn't glow and was dark.

So it couldn't have been a mod. But I do know I remember seeing it, because it actually surprised me. i was kinda gunning for an "Alistair and Anora are discovered one day dead with their hands around one another's necks" dialogue, with my sadist DN laughing her way back to Orzammar, but was actually surprised when it said "Golden age, everyone's a happy camper, let's all get together and hold hands!"

[Sarah1281]

Howe was dead, his family stripped of name. Didn't keep the Amaranthine nobility from trying to overthrow you.

This isn't because they won't accept the fact that the Howes are out of power. This is because you killed him personally and a lot of their fortunes were tied up with his.

[Bruddajakka]

Basically this has gotten to the point where one person refuses to admit they were wrong, and made a mistake even though ten other people have shown evidence to the contrary. There's no such slide.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

It's like Bigfoot.  We know what we saw, we know it wasn't a bear, but until we produce proof of one in the wild, no one's going to believe us. 

Was this a recent pt, Skadi?  I was thinking that some of the epilogues looked different after Awakening came out and I wondered if one of the patches had changed them.

It must be government mind control waves beaming in making me think I saw it.

My DN playthrough was pre-1.03, pre-Awakening. I had downloaded only dialogue tweaks, which as far as I know, does not effect epilogue slides in terms of rewriting them. It was the only mod of that nature I had. The only other mod I had was the camp storage chest and a recolor of the blood dragon armor so it didn't glow and was dark.

So it couldn't have been a mod. But I do know I remember seeing it, because it actually surprised me. i was kinda gunning for an "Alistair and Anora are discovered one day dead with their hands around one another's necks" dialogue, with my sadist DN laughing her way back to Orzammar, but was actually surprised when it said "Golden age, everyone's a happy camper, let's all get together and hold hands!"

My game was also in a pre-1.03 world with no mods whatsoever (back in the days when I was scared of them).

Ah well, if they did change it in a patch, it must have been for a reason.  Maybe they thought it was too unbalanced to have a slide be that hunkey-dorey about any one of the endings.  I'll see if I can recreate it on my Dalish lass, though, because my curiosity is up.