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[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

LobselVith66 wrote...

Given that the Warden can be an elf and a mage, and no one rises up against him or her in Awakening because the Arl of Amaranthine is now an elf, I'd guess that the cards were taken out for a reason.

The cards all say 'eventually' this happens. As in, presumably in at least a few years. Awakening has you being the Arl or Arlessa for a few months at most and then the epilogue shows you don't stay on for very long.

Although everyone you meet in Amaranthine as the new Arl (mostly human) treat you with reverence and respect regardless of whether you're an elf or a mage (or both). Even the nobles have no issue with your heritage (unless you're Orlesian).

ejoslin wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Since the Warden can only chose Shianni as Bann (unless they perform the US and the Warden's father Cyrion is then elected First Bann), and none of this is mentioned in Awakening or any other post-DA:O DLC, I'd assume that none of those results are canon.

Well, to be fair, Awakening threw out a LOT of the epilogue cards. No one is claiming these are canon. They can't be "canon" as they can only happen if a city elf requests them.

But really, you can't know if these were taken out deliberately or kept out by a bug -- it could very well be a data entry error (there are tons of them, trust me, I spent a lot of time hunting them down and fixing them). Unfortunately, where the flags for this are set in a place that is not accessible so it's hard to say what was meant to be and what wasn't.

Canon as in capable of happening. In canon, the Dalish or the werewolves aid the Warden; it's one or the other in lore. Nothing suggests that this happens in canon regardless of what route the Warden takes. It's likely this was cut just like the Warden being able to kill both the mages and the templars (if Wynne opened up the possibility of the Warden using blood magic). Given that the Warden can be an elf and a mage, and no one rises up against him or her in Awakening because the Arl of Amaranthine is now an elf, I'd guess that the cards were taken out for a reason.

But keep in mind, Awakening was not consistent in several places to Origins lore.

I don't know if the cards were taken out deliberately or because of a bug.  Nor do you.  I can't tell without seeing the post-coronation file.  I do know that quite a few of the epilogue cards that were included, and stayed included in Origins directly contradict Awakening.  I don't think continuity was that big a concern, tbh.

True enough, but since we can't elect Soris as Bann and he always leaves the alienage with his human wife, I'd argue that it doesn't seem likely. I do find the epilogue cards interesting, though they are depressing (as much as the Magi Boon amounting to nothing). I'd guess getting screwed over with the royal boon doesn't really give much incentive for replay value - why stop the Blight when your people are going to be enduring hell regardless of what you do? I'm surprised the Warden as Bann wasn't included (as it seems the most hopeful for the alienage), since it seems to be the kind of outcome that would happen if an elven Warden became the new Teyrn of Gwaren.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't know if the cards were taken out deliberately or because of a bug.  Nor do you.  I can't tell without seeing the post-coronation file.  I do know that quite a few of the epilogue cards that were included, and stayed included in Origins directly contradict Awakening.  I don't think continuity was that big a concern, tbh.

(husband posting)


Is it too crazy of an idea to use what the actual Dragon Age web site actually lists as Canon?   (If not someone should Ask Gaider the next time he does one of his streaming interviews)

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Epilogue

The wiki is not infallible.  There have been a ton of mistakes on it (I corrected a lot of them regarding Zevran, where there was so much incorrect information it's not even funny).  The information on it is put on by laypeople, not the writers.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 septembre 2010 - 02:10 .

[LobselVith8]

ejoslin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I don't know if the cards were taken out deliberately or because of a bug.  Nor do you.  I can't tell without seeing the post-coronation file.  I do know that quite a few of the epilogue cards that were included, and stayed included in Origins directly contradict Awakening.  I don't think continuity was that big a concern, tbh.

(husband posting)


Is it too crazy of an idea to use what the actual Dragon Age web site actually lists as Canon?   (If not someone should Ask Gaider the next time he does one of his streaming interviews)

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Epilogue

The wiki is not infallible.  There have been a ton of mistakes on it (I corrected a lot of them regarding Zevran, where there was so much incorrect information it's not even funny).  The information on it is put on by laypeople, not the writers.

True; for instance, the epilogue states that the Magi boon has given the Ferelden Circle independence, but David Gaider already said:

David Gaider wrote...

It does come up, actually.

Keep in mind, however, that the kingdom doesn't control the Circle of Magi. That conversation no doubt went a little like this:

King/Queen: "We would like mages in Ferelden to be free."
Chantry: "No."

[ejoslin]

Yeh, I really don't think continuity was a huge issue for the writers. If I could look at the post coronation dialog file (cry) I could see if actually there are conditions to trigger Soris being offered the Bann (I can see it if maybe the city elf let his/her father be sold into slavery or perhaps took the deal). I'm not saying they weren't taken out deliberately, I'm saying I don't know, but those epilogues slides are certainly very VERY interesting. I could probably fix the code of the flags to perhaps get those in (if they weren't programmed properly, and I can think of a couple of places where incorrect dialog, obviously incorrect dialog, were triggering because of that), but I'm feeling a bit too lazy to look into it today

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 septembre 2010 - 03:25 .

[Addai]

(husband posting)



Seems like an after the fact retrocon on Gaider's end. Basically trying to undue the cognitive dissonance of the episode slide in light of the new Dragon II plot they got cooked up.



Or at least it seems like a bait and switch to offer the boon, yet not have it actually have any real value.

[ejoslin]

Yeh, it makes me wonder how well the Origins endings were thought out. So many were just tossed out the window for Awakening. It's too bad -- Origins was such a wonderful story with endings that felt very complete. It left me wanting more MORE MORE! But the "more" so far has been a bit of a disappointment.



Anyway, to keep it on topic, I like Anora

[KnightofPhoenix]

About Anora being a commoner. If you ask for rumors in the Denerim tavern, the barter says that there are rumors that Anora is baren and that this is a curse from the Maker for putting a commoner on the throne. So while I don't think many nobles would share this belief, idiotic comments like that are to be expected.

Anyways, I love Anora





  

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

 

Anyway, to keep it on topic, I like Anora

Anora's opinion about freeing the mages.

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Addai67, 11 septembre 2010 - 03:15 .

[CalJones]

I rather liked her oration, she sounded emotional.

[LobselVith8]

ejoslin wrote...

Yeh, it makes me wonder how well the Origins endings were thought out. So many were just tossed out the window for Awakening. It's too bad -- Origins was such a wonderful story with endings that felt very complete. It left me wanting more MORE MORE! But the "more" so far has been a bit of a disappointment.

Anyway, to keep it on topic, I like Anora

Or ignored, apparently. Were there any hidden epilogue slides if the Warden became Teyrn of Gwaren?

Anora does support the Magi boon in the US or in the ceremony. And Alistair does support her as a hardened King when she makes decisions.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Just because I think it got lost in the elf riot/golden age debate. Going to give it one more mention

Awesome Anora fanfics by Xandurpein here.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xandurpein's ff is practically definitive of Cousland / Anora. Really awesome stuff.

[Addai]

Addai67 wrote...

 quote
Edit: Besides, it's so unlikely that they actually went in and changed an epilogue card (new writing, double checking programming, etc) and didn't take the two seconds to fix the glaring bug where male wardens who romanced Zevran and traveled were referred to as a woman that people were screaming about all over the forums.
quote
 


(Husband posting here)

That's my thought too.   I think the non-warden "Golden Age" is Socially Constructed.    A prominent game writer or blogger mentions it figuratively speaking  or actually goofs up the details in his review piece.   Other people read it, in retrospect they also remember seeing it on their play throughs via the power of suggestion (There are many psychologys studies that show the malleability of human memory).

Well, I have to disagree again with my husband here.  I replayed Dalish Warden's original ending and I did get the "beloved monarchs" slide.  Though it is not the only end slide that looks different than how I recall the original epilogue being, and until a dev says "no way", I think they changed the end slides to fit Awakening and that the Golden Age slide also got removed, perhaps because it was too peachy and unbalanced.

And with that, I bow out of a discussion I don't really care about that much anyway. 

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

About Anora being a commoner. If you ask for rumors in the Denerim tavern, the barter says that there are rumors that Anora is baren and that this is a curse from the Maker for putting a commoner on the throne. So while I don't think many nobles would share this belief, idiotic comments like that are to be expected.

I'm confused about the timeline, which leads into my confusion about the "commoner" gossip. I don't see how she could have been born before Loghain was given Gwaren. Didn't he meet Celia there? If so, then she was born a noble. You even have the chance to refer to her as a commoner's daughter when talking to Loghain.

Unless people don't really pay attention to Loghain's nobility because it's so new, and therefore don't pay attention to Anora's nobility.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
Unless people don't really pay attention to Loghain's nobility because it's so new, and therefore don't pay attention to Anora's nobility.

That's most likely the case. Just like people also sometimes demean the "nouveaux riches".

Sten said something like "a farmer will never be a merchant, he's always a farmer turned merchant".
Though he probably meant it in a different way, that is hopw people view those who become recently noble. Commoners turned nobles.

[CalJones]

Quite. Yet if Loghain had been a dwarf, he'd be a paragon, and his and Anora's nobility wouldn't be in question.

[Nyaore]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Unless people don't really pay attention to Loghain's nobility because it's so new, and therefore don't pay attention to Anora's nobility.

That's most likely the case. Just like people also sometimes demean the "nouveaux riches".

Sten said something like "a farmer will never be a merchant, he's always a farmer turned merchant".
Though he probably meant it in a different way, that is hopw people view those who become recently noble. Commoners turned nobles.

Indeed. It probably would have taken at least two more generations before people started truly seeing them as true 'nobles' and not some common upstarts that happened to have the King's favor. The populace might adore and respect both Loghain and Anora, but old perceptions are hard to change.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

CalJones wrote...

Quite. Yet if Loghain had been a dwarf, he'd be a paragon, and his and Anora's nobility wouldn't be in question.

That got me thinking about Bhelen and Anora trade negotiations and politics. Two pretty savvy politicians going head to head.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Unless people don't really pay attention to Loghain's nobility because it's so new, and therefore don't pay attention to Anora's nobility.

That's most likely the case. Just like people also sometimes demean the "nouveaux riches".

Sten said something like "a farmer will never be a merchant, he's always a farmer turned merchant".
Though he probably meant it in a different way, that is hopw people view those who become recently noble. Commoners turned nobles.

(Husband)

I'm not sure about that.   I encountered a similar line of Arl Eamon where he says that he / his line "isn't part of the nobility".

Which boggles my mind, given the history of Rowan and all.   I think class based snobbery may be more widespread then you think.


Edit/ Add

class based entitlement is also one likely motivation of Arl Howe's infamy (The "I deserved more" type comments.   His family being established nobility even longer then Couslands makes me think he was ultimately maneuvering toward the position of King himself).

Modifié par Addai67, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:05 .

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

Well, I have to disagree again with my husband here.  I replayed Dalish Warden's original ending and I did get the "beloved monarchs" slide.  Though it is not the only end slide that looks different than how I recall the original epilogue being, and until a dev says "no way", I think they changed the end slides to fit Awakening and that the Golden Age slide also got removed, perhaps because it was too peachy and unbalanced.
And with that, I bow out of a discussion I don't really care about that much anyway. 

No, it makes no sense for them to have done this.  Slides that are on there still do not fit awakening.  It really is hard to believe they would change ONE slide that wasn't really inconsistent with Awakening and leave in all the "royal weddings" ones which actually ARE a bit inconsistent in the timeline.  I think your husband is right on this one.  I've done more playthroughs than I care to admit, with Alistair in all states of matrimony, since the game was released, and, well, I have never ever seen the "golden age" card.

Edit: Again, there are a few glaring bugs in the slideshow that actually have been acknowledged (since before awakening) but not fixed.  I cannot imagine they would change the one slide that really didn't have an issue, not change others that cause continuity problems, and not fix the bugs that were causing incorrect slides to trigger.

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:02 .

[CalJones]

Addai67 (husband) wrote...

class based entitlement is also one likely motivation of Arl Howe's infamy (The "I deserved more" type comments.   His family being established nobility even longer then Couslands makes me think he was ultimately maneuvering toward the position of King himself).

Yes, he was certainly climbing the ranks of the nobility on Loghain's coattails - I have little doubt he would have stabbed Loghain in the back eventually. If he'd managed to dispose of Anora, then I doubt Loghain would even have seen it coming (and much as I love the old bugger, he wasn't terribly smart about his choice of allies).

[Bruddajakka]

Basically Loghain needed Howe. He ended up stuck in a corner that he didn't know how to get himself out of, and he needed Howe. As much as Howe was hated he knew how to play the Politic game, and thanks to Howe killing the Couslands he had a way to try, and keep him under his thumb. So it was a mutual beneficial though pretty parasitic union. Howe got to keep collecting titles, Loghain got an advisor who knew how to play the political game.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

CalJones wrote...

Addai67 (husband) wrote...

class based entitlement is also one likely motivation of Arl Howe's infamy (The "I deserved more" type comments.   His family being established nobility even longer then Couslands makes me think he was ultimately maneuvering toward the position of King himself).

Yes, he was certainly climbing the ranks of the nobility on Loghain's coattails - I have little doubt he would have stabbed Loghain in the back eventually. If he'd managed to dispose of Anora, then I doubt Loghain would even have seen it coming (and much as I love the old bugger, he wasn't terribly smart about his choice of allies).

I agree I think Howe was going to gift wrap Fereldon to Orlais, so he could become the Empress' #1 lapdog. The Howe's were traditionally loyal to Orlais. Howe's father was hung in the Civil War, and Howe hopped sides soon as his father got hung, so he could retain his titles, nobility, and most importantly his life.

He was stealing from the treasury and had an Orelsian mistress., and Howe was trying to split up Loghain and Anora the two other of the most powerful people in Fereldon during the Blight(power wise I would say it goes (Loghain-Howe-Eamon-Anora). I have no doubt in my mind that Howe would of probably killed Anora had the Warden failed at resucing her, and told Loghain that the Warden did it.

[CalJones]

A solitary rose among brambles.



A happy(ish) outcome at Landsmeet. (Well, no one died).

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

(husband posting)

Seems like an after the fact retrocon on Gaider's end. Basically trying to undue the cognitive dissonance of the episode slide in light of the new Dragon II plot they got cooked up.

Or at least it seems like a bait and switch to offer the boon, yet not have it actually have any real value.

It does seem pointless to offer a royal boon that never happens.