Persephone wrote...
klarabella wrote...
What battles? Is this a rumour I missed?Persephone wrote...
What defeats? Ostagar? He has won every battle between Ostagar and the Landsmeet.
There have been battles between Loghain & his allies against those opposing him. He won them all. According to Bodhann, anyway.
Wulfram wrote...
Persephone wrote...
klarabella wrote...
What battles? Is this a rumour I missed?Persephone wrote...
What defeats? Ostagar? He has won every battle between Ostagar and the Landsmeet.
There have been battles between Loghain & his allies against those opposing him. He won them all. According to Bodhann, anyway.
Going by what Howe says in the cutscenes, they were pyrrhic victories though.
Zjarcal wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I doubt Loghain would have continued the slave trade after the war though, had he won.
I agree.
Cauthrien says something that suggests this to be true if you meet her at the Landsmeet Chamber (sparing her at Howe's estate). She says how Loghain was forced to look for funds elsewhere due to the war, suggesting that it wasn't an easy decision for Loghain.
I still wouldn't have done it as I'm fervently against slavery of any kind, but I do agree with KoP that he wouldn't have continued the slave trade after the war.
Valdrane78 wrote...
Zjarcal wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I doubt Loghain would have continued the slave trade after the war though, had he won.
I agree.
Cauthrien says something that suggests this to be true if you meet her at the Landsmeet Chamber (sparing her at Howe's estate). She says how Loghain was forced to look for funds elsewhere due to the war, suggesting that it wasn't an easy decision for Loghain.
I still wouldn't have done it as I'm fervently against slavery of any kind, but I do agree with KoP that he wouldn't have continued the slave trade after the war.
Bah, Cauthrien is a mindless psychophant. She'll do or say anything that makes Loghain look like the reluctant hero, not exactly a good place to find unbiased info on Loghain.
As for sparing him, it depends on my mood. Sometimes I do enjoy lopping off his head in front of his daughter. I've never had Alistair do it, I do my own wet work.
Persephone wrote...
Valdrane78 wrote...
Zjarcal wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I doubt Loghain would have continued the slave trade after the war though, had he won.
I agree.
Cauthrien says something that suggests this to be true if you meet her at the Landsmeet Chamber (sparing her at Howe's estate). She says how Loghain was forced to look for funds elsewhere due to the war, suggesting that it wasn't an easy decision for Loghain.
I still wouldn't have done it as I'm fervently against slavery of any kind, but I do agree with KoP that he wouldn't have continued the slave trade after the war.
Bah, Cauthrien is a mindless psychophant. She'll do or say anything that makes Loghain look like the reluctant hero, not exactly a good place to find unbiased info on Loghain.
As for sparing him, it depends on my mood. Sometimes I do enjoy lopping off his head in front of his daughter. I've never had Alistair do it, I do my own wet work.
Cauthrien is neither mindless, nor unable to see Loghain's darker side if you talk to her correctly. And "Psychophant" isn't even a word, as far as I know. You mean sycophant, I suppose. Right out of Eamon's (Of all people) mouth.
To enjoy decapitating a man in front of his daughter, even if it is "just" "sometimes"......well, I find that to be callous, vile and utterly uncalled for. Just my opinion, of course.
Valdrane78 wrote...
Persephone wrote...
Valdrane78 wrote...
Zjarcal wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I doubt Loghain would have continued the slave trade after the war though, had he won.
I agree.
Cauthrien says something that suggests this to be true if you meet her at the Landsmeet Chamber (sparing her at Howe's estate). She says how Loghain was forced to look for funds elsewhere due to the war, suggesting that it wasn't an easy decision for Loghain.
I still wouldn't have done it as I'm fervently against slavery of any kind, but I do agree with KoP that he wouldn't have continued the slave trade after the war.
Bah, Cauthrien is a mindless psychophant. She'll do or say anything that makes Loghain look like the reluctant hero, not exactly a good place to find unbiased info on Loghain.
As for sparing him, it depends on my mood. Sometimes I do enjoy lopping off his head in front of his daughter. I've never had Alistair do it, I do my own wet work.
Cauthrien is neither mindless, nor unable to see Loghain's darker side if you talk to her correctly. And "Psychophant" isn't even a word, as far as I know. You mean sycophant, I suppose. Right out of Eamon's (Of all people) mouth.
To enjoy decapitating a man in front of his daughter, even if it is "just" "sometimes"......well, I find that to be callous, vile and utterly uncalled for. Just my opinion, of course.
Interesting, you've managed to correct my spelling error and call me various names in one breath, how ammusing. And yes she is mindless, I'v gone through all her various conversation points and she is mindless for that very reason. No matterwhat you say to her she still defends him knowing that some of the things he has done are "callous, vile and utterly uncalled for!" At no point does she step back and say, you are right what he is doing is wrong, maybe I should rethink my loyalties, maybe I woudl have spared her instead of running her through.
Nore do I think Eamon is a bright pillar of sunshine either, but he doesn't go aroung hiring blood mages to kill Arls or imprison Templars. Nore does Eamon conspire with Howe to kill my entire family, and if you think Howe did that all on his own without Loghain's consent, you are just niave. Regardless of his supposed depth Loghain is a slaver, traitor, murderer, usurper and power hungry and deserves a death deserving of those crimes.
Valdrane78 wrote...
Bah, Cauthrien is a mindless psychophant. She'll do or say anything that makes Loghain look like the reluctant hero, not exactly a good place to find unbiased info on Loghain.
As for sparing him, it depends on my mood. Sometimes I do enjoy lopping off his head in front of his daughter. I've never had Alistair do it, I do my own wet work.
Wulfram wrote...
If you call Loghain a murderer in the camp post recruitment conversation, he says "it doesn't even offend me because it happens to be true".
Loghain approved the massacre of Cousland retroactively, if he did not order it. I find it difficult to see Howe acting without some guarantee of support.
When Cauthrien and Anora - the two people left alive who love him and know him best - doubt his motives for his actions at Ostagar, the accusation of traitor cannot be so easily dismissed.
Zjarcal wrote...
Valdrane78 wrote...
Bah, Cauthrien is a mindless psychophant. She'll do or say anything that makes Loghain look like the reluctant hero, not exactly a good place to find unbiased info on Loghain.
As for sparing him, it depends on my mood. Sometimes I do enjoy lopping off his head in front of his daughter. I've never had Alistair do it, I do my own wet work.
Just out of curiosity, have you seen her dialogue at the Landsmeet chamber (when you don't kill her at Howe's state)? Because at that point, once you break her, she will recognize that Loghain is paranoid and wrong about most of the things he did.
She's annoying and she does follow Loghain around inconditionally, but she is capable of seeing past all of this eventually.
As for your other comment, let's just say to each their own.
SirJarenTor wrote...
Yeah, while Loghain might not have told how "quick, go murder the Couslands!" I fail to see how he could possibly get away with such a thing if he didn't know a power change was going to occur, and he could count on that pardoning or vindicating his actions. Loghain might not have handed him the sword, but he didn't exactly keep the armory guarded to prevent it either.
Loghain definitely deserves death for his crimes, IMO, but right there in the Landsmeet does seem a tad over the top. As far as "in front of his daughter", well she's still the Queen (and may or may not continue to be), and attending the execution of a traitor and regicide would hardly be out of place. Usually she'd be out of blood splatter range though...
Personally though, I can't stomach the fact that history would be willing to sweep his regicide, usurping, and civil war instigation under the rug if you spare him. Remembering instead his glory days against the Orlesian occupation. Certainly the man deserves a great deal of credit for that, but I don't think an honorable death should be able to absolve someone of crimes that grave.
Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 24 septembre 2010 - 02:30 .
Giggles_Manically wrote...
Its sad how some Loghain haters say:
Loghain was a despicable man!
But then go on to say:
I love publically decapitating him! And seeing it splatter Anora! F- YEAH!
How is that any less despicable?
Modifié par Jacks Smirking Revenge, 24 septembre 2010 - 02:50 .
Persephone wrote...
Wulfram wrote...
If you call Loghain a murderer in the camp post recruitment conversation, he says "it doesn't even offend me because it happens to be true".
Loghain approved the massacre of Cousland retroactively, if he did not order it. I find it difficult to see Howe acting without some guarantee of support.
When Cauthrien and Anora - the two people left alive who love him and know him best - doubt his motives for his actions at Ostagar, the accusation of traitor cannot be so easily dismissed.
Ask David Gaider, Loghain had nothing to do with the Cousland massacre. Every soldier is a "murderer", I suppose. I know of no one whom he himself murdered in the game. I'll dismiss the traitor accusation, yes. Others more capable than I have explained why. I won't repeat this again. It does no good anyway.
Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...
I hate how almost every Loghain hater seems to blame him for everything ignorantly. I love talking about Loghain and think he is a great character, but I can't take the same arguments over and over and over and over that seem to happen in every thread about him.
In my own personal opinion the only thing Loghain is guilty for is; slave trading, slander, and incapacitating Eamon(although I would of done the same in his shoes).
MKDAWUSS wrote...
I think Eamon's incap was more Howe's thing than Loghain's TBQH. I think Howe made the political calls and Loghain the military ones
Elhanan wrote...
Persephone wrote...
Wulfram wrote...
If you call Loghain a murderer in the camp post recruitment conversation, he says "it doesn't even offend me because it happens to be true".
Loghain approved the massacre of Cousland retroactively, if he did not order it. I find it difficult to see Howe acting without some guarantee of support.
When Cauthrien and Anora - the two people left alive who love him and know him best - doubt his motives for his actions at Ostagar, the accusation of traitor cannot be so easily dismissed.
Ask David Gaider, Loghain had nothing to do with the Cousland massacre. Every soldier is a "murderer", I suppose. I know of no one whom he himself murdered in the game. I'll dismiss the traitor accusation, yes. Others more capable than I have explained why. I won't repeat this again. It does no good anyway.
Loghain did not murder the Couslands, but he did support Howe after the crime was duly reported. Thus as commander, he becomes complicit in that crime, I believe. Maybe someone that knows legalese will clarify this for all our benefits.
And not every soldier is a 'murderer'. They may kill, but this is not murder. However, leaving men on the field to die is murder; still waiting for legal eyes to follow up on this one, too.
Modifié par Persephone, 24 septembre 2010 - 03:16 .
Sabariel wrote...
I doubt that is the reason he chose to sell elves. I think he chose elves because no one would miss them essentially. The guardsmen certainly didn't care that female elves were being kidnapped from their own wedding. They wouldn't care about "a few elves" going missing either.
Elhanan wrote...
Loghain did not murder the Couslands, but he did support Howe after the crime was duly reported. Thus as commander, he becomes complicit in that crime, I believe.
Persephone wrote...
SirJarenTor wrote...
Yeah, while Loghain might not have told how "quick, go murder the Couslands!" I fail to see how he could possibly get away with such a thing if he didn't know a power change was going to occur, and he could count on that pardoning or vindicating his actions. Loghain might not have handed him the sword, but he didn't exactly keep the armory guarded to prevent it either.
Loghain definitely deserves death for his crimes, IMO, but right there in the Landsmeet does seem a tad over the top. As far as "in front of his daughter", well she's still the Queen (and may or may not continue to be), and attending the execution of a traitor and regicide would hardly be out of place. Usually she'd be out of blood splatter range though...
Personally though, I can't stomach the fact that history would be willing to sweep his regicide, usurping, and civil war instigation under the rug if you spare him. Remembering instead his glory days against the Orlesian occupation. Certainly the man deserves a great deal of credit for that, but I don't think an honorable death should be able to absolve someone of crimes that grave.
1) Howe planned the Cousland massacre on his own. Gaider confirmed this. As Arl of Amaranthine and Teyrn of Highever, he is a most powerful ally. Political intrigue at its best and nastiest. Loghain does not approve of the Cousland massacre, as far as I can see.
2) He is neither a traitor nor a regicide. Ostagar is too grey an area to qualify for either. He didn't kill Cailan. An ogre did. What happens at the Landsmeet isn't a proper execution but a coup d'état. A bloody one. And queen or no, nobody should be forced to watch as their only family member left (And a parent!) is being butchered. And he usurped nobody. Being regent isn't grabbing the crown. And he did not instigate the civil war, the Bannorn did. (Justified or not)
Maconbar wrote...
Persephone wrote...
SirJarenTor wrote...
Yeah, while Loghain might not have told how "quick, go murder the Couslands!" I fail to see how he could possibly get away with such a thing if he didn't know a power change was going to occur, and he could count on that pardoning or vindicating his actions. Loghain might not have handed him the sword, but he didn't exactly keep the armory guarded to prevent it either.
Loghain definitely deserves death for his crimes, IMO, but right there in the Landsmeet does seem a tad over the top. As far as "in front of his daughter", well she's still the Queen (and may or may not continue to be), and attending the execution of a traitor and regicide would hardly be out of place. Usually she'd be out of blood splatter range though...
Personally though, I can't stomach the fact that history would be willing to sweep his regicide, usurping, and civil war instigation under the rug if you spare him. Remembering instead his glory days against the Orlesian occupation. Certainly the man deserves a great deal of credit for that, but I don't think an honorable death should be able to absolve someone of crimes that grave.
1) Howe planned the Cousland massacre on his own. Gaider confirmed this. As Arl of Amaranthine and Teyrn of Highever, he is a most powerful ally. Political intrigue at its best and nastiest. Loghain does not approve of the Cousland massacre, as far as I can see.
2) He is neither a traitor nor a regicide. Ostagar is too grey an area to qualify for either. He didn't kill Cailan. An ogre did. What happens at the Landsmeet isn't a proper execution but a coup d'état. A bloody one. And queen or no, nobody should be forced to watch as their only family member left (And a parent!) is being butchered. And he usurped nobody. Being regent isn't grabbing the crown. And he did not instigate the civil war, the Bannorn did. (Justified or not)
Why do you suggest that the events of the Landsmeet were a coup d'etat? It seems that they legally removed the regent, which is within their authority.
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