486 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Maconbar wrote...

Why do you suggest that the events of the Landsmeet were a coup d'etat? It seems that they legally removed the regent, which is within their authority.

If you're getting rid of Anora, it starts looking a bit like a coup.  Though even then, it would seem to be within the Landsmeets traditional role.

If Anora backs you, then Loghain is attempting a coup by clinging on to power.  His only legal claim is that he's acting on her behalf.

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 septembre 2010 - 03:30 .

[nos_astra]

Persephone wrote...
Legally removing someone involves a trial, in Medieval times as well. Loghain should have been convicted by his equals, not by some Grey Warden. (Esp. since the Wardens' former treachery is still well known) Had the whole Landsmeet decided that he deserved death, different (legal) story. As I see it, it was Eamon's agenda that he had been working on before Ostagar and the Blight.

The Landsmeet is the trial. You are bringing evidence for Loghain's crimes and argue against his position. For gameplay reasons the Landsmeet vote is pointless and the duel will still occur. The duel could be considered a trial by combat.

Modifié par klarabella, 24 septembre 2010 - 03:30 .

[Elhanan]

Persephone wrote...

Leaving an already doomed part of your troops to die to save the rest is not murder. This has been done by the greatest generals past and present. That's WAR. Nasty and cruel. War IS cruel.

War is indeed nasty, cruel, hellish. But there is a lack of evidence to support the conjecture that those troops were already doomed. While I also have little evidence that the troops were winning, at least there is some (ie; Alistair, Warden, Cauthrian, noble on the rack in Howe's estate, further attenpts to silence the remaining Wardens).

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Why do you suggest that the events of the Landsmeet were a coup d'etat? It seems that they legally removed the regent, which is within their authority.

If you're getting rid of Anora, it starts looking a bit like a coup.  Though even then, it would seem to be within the Landsmeets traditional role.

A BIT? Replacing a good, loyal and competent queen with the un-trained, unqualified bastard child of the former king cannot be justified, esp. in Medieval Times. Blood may matter. But Alistair was neither aknowledged by Maric, nor conceived in matrimony. Who becomes Regent and power holder Nr. 1 (See Witch Hunt) if both Loghain and Anora are gone? Eamon. Alistair is Eamon by proxy. Eamon, who made the boy sleep with the hounds, sent him to the Chantry....only to act as benevolent puppet master once Alistair is useful.

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Legally removing someone involves a trial, in Medieval times as well. Loghain should have been convicted by his equals, not by some Grey Warden. (Esp. since the Wardens' former treachery is still well known) Had the whole Landsmeet decided that he deserved death, different (legal) story. As I see it, it was Eamon's agenda that he had been working on before Ostagar and the Blight.

The Landsmeet is the trial. You are bringing evidence for Loghain's crimes and argue against his position. For gameplay reasons the Landsmeet vote is pointless and the duel will still occur. The duel could be considered a trial by combat.

Which still leaves us without a conviction, the whole Landsmeet, except Eamon, GASPS in SHOCK if you butcher Loghain like that.

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Leaving an already doomed part of your troops to die to save the rest is not murder. This has been done by the greatest generals past and present. That's WAR. Nasty and cruel. War IS cruel.

War is indeed nasty, cruel, hellish. But there is a lack of evidence to support the conjecture that those troops were already doomed. While I also have little evidence that the troops were winning, at least there is some (ie; Alistair, Warden, Cauthrian, noble on the rack in Howe's estate, further attenpts to silence the remaining Wardens).

There is enough evidence for me. For the Landsmeet. Blaming the Wardens after their former treachery and their useless secrecy may be harsh, but it's not surprising. A beacon lit too late. The Wardens attempting to kill a king. The events in "The Calling".

[Elhanan]

phaonica wrote...

[

Elhanan wrote...
Loghain did not murder the Couslands, but he did support Howe after the crime was duly reported. Thus as commander, he becomes complicit in that crime, I believe.

So a page or so back we were discussing that the Landsmeet will let Loghain get away with his 'crimes' because they are more concerned with the future of Ferelden than his guilt. Is the Landsmeet, then, complicit in Loghain's crimes? Just wondering if they can be compared.

IMO, I would believe so if no follow up on the crimes had been done. But in my epilogues, I get the sense that there is work being done between the Alienage and the throne, and with the new Elder being Shianni, it is likely that this event is not forgotten. Again, I am no lawyer; just trying to apply what little grey cells I have to the story.

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Leaving an already doomed part of your troops to die to save the rest is not murder. This has been done by the greatest generals past and present. That's WAR. Nasty and cruel. War IS cruel.

War is indeed nasty, cruel, hellish. But there is a lack of evidence to support the conjecture that those troops were already doomed. While I also have little evidence that the troops were winning, at least there is some (ie; Alistair, Warden, Cauthrian, noble on the rack in Howe's estate, further attenpts to silence the remaining Wardens).

Except for Cauthrien, you're talking about people who have reason to be angry at Howe and/or Loghain. Alistair's conjecture is either a reference to the previous battles or based an a very imcomplete and short-lived view of the field. Cauthrien only raises an objection in regards to the king, not the battle. As for silencing the Wardens, I doubt he knows Alistair and your Warden are the two alive, so it's a general call for people he thinks are tools of Orlais.

[Wulfram]

Persephone wrote...

A BIT? Replacing a good, loyal and competent queen with the un-trained, unqualified bastard child of the former king cannot be justified, esp. in Medieval Times. Blood may matter. But Alistair was neither aknowledged by Maric, nor conceived in matrimony.

The landsmeet has the power to regulate the succession.  If Alistair has their support, he is the legal King - whether he is the better choice, or not.

Personally, I tend to end up backing her or getting Alistair to marry her.  It's the most expedient course, though I'd be more impressed if she'd kept more control over her father.  However, her right to the throne comes from the landsmeet, not from her marriage.  The move from consort to reigning Queen is not a fair accompli, for all Loghain's bluster.

Who becomes Regent and power holder Nr. 1 (See Witch Hunt) if both Loghain and Anora are gone?

Quite possibly, the warden

Eamon. Alistair is Eamon by proxy. Eamon, who made the boy sleep with the hounds, sent him to the Chantry....only to act as benevolent puppet master once Alistair is useful.

Ferelden lords value their dogs.  I'm sure Alistair had better accomodations than the elven servants did.

[Elhanan]

Persephone wrote...

There is enough evidence for me. For the Landsmeet. Blaming the Wardens after their former treachery and their useless secrecy may be harsh, but it's not surprising. A beacon lit too late. The Wardens attempting to kill a king. The events in "The Calling".

Blaming the Warden's is false testimony. If the beacon is too late, why wait until it is lit to leave?

The Warden's attempt to kill a king? If you mean the events in WK, that was before or during Maric's rule, as he pardoned them to return to Ferelden; nothing to do with current events.
 
And I have only the game; none of the books. If there is something within those pages that illuminates the events at Ostagar; fine, but I have yet to read any of them. Nor do I recall seeing them appear in any of these debates.

Again, I have also spared Loghain, and recommend players to do so once to explore more of this character. But he is guilty of multiple crimes, and deserves death at the Landsmeet, with Archie, or in Orlais, IMO.

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...

A BIT? Replacing a good, loyal and competent queen with the un-trained, unqualified bastard child of the former king cannot be justified, esp. in Medieval Times. Blood may matter. But Alistair was neither aknowledged by Maric, nor conceived in matrimony.

The landsmeet has the power to regulate the succession.  If Alistair has their support, he is the legal King - whether he is the better choice, or not.

Personally, I tend to end up backing her or getting Alistair to marry her.  It's the most expedient course, though I'd be more impressed if she'd kept more control over her father.  However, her right to the throne comes from the landsmeet, not from her marriage.  The move from consort to reigning Queen is not a fair accompli, for all Loghain's bluster.

Who becomes Regent and power holder Nr. 1 (See Witch Hunt) if both Loghain and Anora are gone?

Quite possibly, the warden

Eamon. Alistair is Eamon by proxy. Eamon, who made the boy sleep with the hounds, sent him to the Chantry....only to act as benevolent puppet master once Alistair is useful.

Ferelden lords value their dogs.  I'm sure Alistair had better accomodations than the elven servants did.

The Landsmeet doesn't decide in that case. Eamon immediately pipes up and asks the Warden to do it. That is how you excuse such neglect? (Today they'd call it abuse) Because others had it worse, it's ok for a child to sleep in the stables, be banished to the Chantry etc. No way! And no, the Warden does not become Regent. Eamon does. And it makes me sick.

[xXhayleyroxXx]

I haven't spared Loghain in any of my playthroughs. 1 - because of how if effects Alistair. 2. He killed King Calien. 3. He blamed the grey wardens for what he did.

[KnightofPhoenix]

It's quite amazing how history repeats itself incredibly fast here. I just had a couple hundred deja vus

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 septembre 2010 - 03:52 .

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

Persephone wrote...

There is enough evidence for me. For the Landsmeet. Blaming the Wardens after their former treachery and their useless secrecy may be harsh, but it's not surprising. A beacon lit too late. The Wardens attempting to kill a king. The events in "The Calling".

Blaming the Warden's is false testimony. If the beacon is too late, why wait until it is lit to leave?

The Warden's attempt to kill a king? If you mean the events in WK, that was before or during Maric's rule, as he pardoned them to return to Ferelden; nothing to do with current events.
 
And I have only the game; none of the books. If there is something within those pages that illuminates the events at Ostagar; fine, but I have yet to read any of them. Nor do I recall seeing them appear in any of these debates.

Again, I have also spared Loghain, and recommend players to do so once to explore more of this character. But he is guilty of multiple crimes, and deserves death at the Landsmeet, with Archie, or in Orlais, IMO.

Doesn't matter when the Wardens attempted treachery. The taint of treason remains. History tells us this about groups pretending to be neutral who attempt to grasp power.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Yeah I was upset that when I asked for title and riches. I didn't become regent instead I get probably the most ravaged Teryn in Fereldon. Due to it being so far south and close the heart of the Blight. Good job Alistair just what I wanted. You picked Eamon over me? Really?

Although you can be Chancellor, but still that is below Eamon if Alistair rules solo. Since from my understanding it goes

King->Regent->Chancellor->Teyrns->Arls->Banns

Modifié par Jacks Smirking Revenge, 24 septembre 2010 - 03:55 .

[Persephone]

xXhayleyroxXx wrote...

I haven't spared Loghain in any of my playthroughs. 1 - because of how if effects Alistair. 2. He killed King Calien. 3. He blamed the grey wardens for what he did.

1) Alistair is an adult, or at least he should be. Behaving like a selfish man-child if he doesn't get his way. No, I'll not butcher Loghain to please his bloodlust. Alistair abandons his duty, his friends and everything to become a useless drunkard. His choice. My Warden sparing Loghain did not force him to act like a child.

2) Loghain is an ogre? WOW.....

3) Read up on the Wardens... it may make things more understandable.

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...
Blaming the Warden's is false testimony. If the beacon is too late, why wait until it is lit to leave?

What I understand from Gaider is that Loghain already saw that the battle was going against them. The late beacon just confirmed it.

The Warden's attempt to kill a king? If you mean the events in WK, that was before or during Maric's rule, as he pardoned them to return to Ferelden; nothing to do with current events.
 
And I have only the game; none of the books. If there is something within those pages that illuminates the events at Ostagar; fine, but I have yet to read any of them. Nor do I recall seeing them appear in any of these debates.

The events of the The Calling give Loghain cause to be suspicious of the Wardens. They encountered the Architect and he revealed his plan. Utha in Awakening was one of the Wardens Duncan traveled into the Deep Roads with. Three of the Wardens agreed to go along with the Architect's plan. The First Enchanter was leftover from the occupation and was Orlesian, in cahoots with the Architect, and tricked the Wardens. They ended up in the Circle Tower about to be killed by the First Enchanter when Loghain "rowed" (heh) to the rescue.

And that's the very short version.

Modifié par Monica21, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:00 .

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

xXhayleyroxXx wrote...

I haven't spared Loghain in any of my playthroughs. 1 - because of how if effects Alistair. 2. He killed King Calien. 3. He blamed the grey wardens for what he did.

-______-


<_<

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's quite amazing how history repeats itself incredibly fast here. I just had a couple hundred deja vus

You too?

[Elhanan]

Monica21 wrote...

Except for Cauthrien, you're talking about people who have reason to be angry at Howe and/or Loghain. Alistair's conjecture is either a reference to the previous battles or based an a very imcomplete and short-lived view of the field. Cauthrien only raises an objection in regards to the king, not the battle. As for silencing the Wardens, I doubt he knows Alistair and your Warden are the two alive, so it's a general call for people he thinks are tools of Orlais.

He hired Antivan assassins because he feared the two remaining Warden are Orlesian spies? That seems thin. After all, the report comes soon after one of the Treaties within Ferelden comes into play; locations far from Orleasian territory still guarded by Loghain's own troops at the border.

And while the few opinions against Loghain have the possibility of bias, this does not in itself negate the testimony. After all, few lived that opposed Loghain, and most of his men remained silent, save the one that told the Noble on the rack, then that son of Ferelden disappears.

[Persephone]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's quite amazing how history repeats itself incredibly fast here. I just had a couple hundred deja vus

You too?

And me three.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's quite amazing how history repeats itself incredibly fast here. I just had a couple hundred deja vus

You too?

I'm not even a veteran on this forum like some of you guys, and I got at least two dozen memories of deja vu going through my head. I can't imagine what is what like a few months after release. I imagine there was probably a dozen of these threads a week lol.

Modifié par Jacks Smirking Revenge, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...
He hired Antivan assassins because he feared the two remaining Warden are Orlesian spies? That seems thin. After all, the report comes soon after one of the Treaties within Ferelden comes into play; locations far from Orleasian territory still guarded by Loghain's own troops at the border.

No, because by that point, they threatened his regency.

And while the few opinions against Loghain have the possibility of bias, this does not in itself negate the testimony. After all, few lived that opposed Loghain, and most of his men remained silent, save the one that told the Noble on the rack, then that son of Ferelden disappears.

Bias actually does negate the testimony. Are you sketching character or are you talking about factual events?

[Monica21]

Persephone wrote...
1) Alistair is an adult, or at least he should be. Behaving like a selfish man-child if he doesn't get his way. No, I'll not butcher Loghain to please his bloodlust. Alistair abandons his duty, his friends and everything to become a useless drunkard. His choice. My Warden sparing Loghain did not force him to act like a child.

Exactly. A grown man who makes grown up choices. He lives with it. I don't have to, and I won't berate myself for something someone else decides.

[Persephone]

Monica21 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
1) Alistair is an adult, or at least he should be. Behaving like a selfish man-child if he doesn't get his way. No, I'll not butcher Loghain to please his bloodlust. Alistair abandons his duty, his friends and everything to become a useless drunkard. His choice. My Warden sparing Loghain did not force him to act like a child.

Exactly. A grown man who makes grown up choices. He lives with it. I don't have to, and I won't berate myself for something someone else decides.

Yes. That's not to say that I am not sorry for him. His reaction, esp. if unhardened, breaks my heart. But it's a lesson he needs to learn. And refuses. He'd rather be a drunk that finish Duncan's work.