486 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's quite amazing how history repeats itself incredibly fast here. I just had a couple hundred deja vus

You too?

I'm not even a veteran on this forum like some of you guys, and I got at least two dozen memories of deja vu going through my head. I can't imagine what is what like a few months after release. I imagine there was probably a dozen of these threads a week lol.

Yes, there were.
Though back then, there was a very few Loghain fans and defenders. Now we've multiplied, which is good.

[Elhanan]

I cannot recall the exact dialogue from the 'Racked Noble'. He learned of what occured at Ostagar from his childhood friend, and then the friend vanishes? and the Noble ends up in the dungeon.

Though emotional, Alistair is spot on in his testimony to Riordin. Loghain is responsible of it all, and deserves death. Perhaps if he were only guilty of attempted murder/poisoning, then I might use the Joining more often., but as is I go with 2H Justice.

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, there were.
Though back then, there was a very few Loghain fans and defenders. Now we've multiplied, which is good.

Makes sense; bad apples do not make more good apples..... j/k 

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

I cannot recall the exact dialogue from the 'Racked Noble'. He learned of what occured at Ostagar from his childhood friend, and then the friend vanishes? and the Noble ends up in the dungeon.
Though emotional, Alistair is spot on in his testimony to Riordin. Loghain is responsible of it all, and deserves death. Perhaps if he were only guilty of attempted murder/poisoning, then I might use the Joining more often., but as is I go with 2H Justice.

Alistair thinks he is talking about justice. He is talking about HIS feelings, HIS desires and what HE thinks Duncan would have wanted. You and he may think he deserves death, I don't. BOTH viewpoints are valid. Do as you wish. And so will I. If I were my Warden, I couldn't live with myself after that cutscene.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's quite amazing how history repeats itself incredibly fast here. I just had a couple hundred deja vus

You too?

I'm not even a veteran on this forum like some of you guys, and I got at least two dozen memories of deja vu going through my head. I can't imagine what is what like a few months after release. I imagine there was probably a dozen of these threads a week lol.

Yes, there were.
Though back then, there was a very few Loghain fans and defenders. Now we've multiplied, which is good.

Indeed, KOP. And your postings are some of the most throught through, spot on and intelligent ones on this topic.

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...

I cannot recall the exact dialogue from the 'Racked Noble'. He learned of what occured at Ostagar from his childhood friend, and then the friend vanishes? and the Noble ends up in the dungeon.

It's second-hand testimony and then the guy ends up in Howe's dungeon. Not Loghain's. Unless you want to argue that he and Howe liked to sit around and discuss who was imprisoned and why and various other ways to torture them.

"Rendon, you know how much I love watching you work, but I've got my country's civil war to plan, some Grey Wardens to murder and Orlais to frame for it; I'm swamped."

Though emotional, Alistair is spot on in his testimony to Riordin. Loghain is responsible of it all, and deserves death. Perhaps if he were only guilty of attempted murder/poisoning, then I might use the Joining more often., but as is I go with 2H Justice.

And I guess that's where we'll continue to disagree.

Modifié par Monica21, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:30 .

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I wouldn't kill him regardless if Anora was there or not. The Senior Grey Warden(Riordan) advises that you recruit him even after he had been tortured and poisoned by Loghain/Howe. I don't think he would suggest that for the lulz. When he said he had compelling reasons I imagine he meant it.

The only characters of mine that have killed Loghain were my elves and my fem mage who romanced Alistair.

Modifié par Jacks Smirking Revenge, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:36 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
Indeed, KOP. And your postings are some of the most throught through, spot on and intelligent ones on this topic.

Thank you

[MKDAWUSS]

Persephone wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I cannot recall the exact dialogue from the 'Racked Noble'. He learned of what occured at Ostagar from his childhood friend, and then the friend vanishes? and the Noble ends up in the dungeon.
Though emotional, Alistair is spot on in his testimony to Riordin. Loghain is responsible of it all, and deserves death. Perhaps if he were only guilty of attempted murder/poisoning, then I might use the Joining more often., but as is I go with 2H Justice.

Alistair thinks he is talking about justice. He is talking about HIS feelings, HIS desires and what HE thinks Duncan would have wanted. You and he may think he deserves death, I don't. BOTH viewpoints are valid. Do as you wish. And so will I. If I were my Warden, I couldn't live with myself after that cutscene.

Riordan wanted to recruit someone who imprisoned and tortured him, and Duncan Conscripted someone who tried to steal from him.

All in all, Riordan and Alistair are basically on equal footing. Both are good friends of Duncan, and both got mistreated by Loghain.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yes, there were.
Though back then, there was a very few Loghain fans and defenders. Now we've multiplied, which is good.

Cheers!

[KnightofPhoenix]

MKDAWUSS wrote...
Riordan wanted to recruit someone who imprisoned and tortured him, and Duncan Conscripted someone who tried to steal from him.

All in all, Riordan and Alistair are basically on equal footing. Both are good friends of Duncan, and both got mistreated by Loghain.

Except Riordan probably had known Duncan for a longer period of time.
I don't think Alistair actually knew Duncan, just projected onto Duncan the father he never had (and it's quite understandable). And hence why he is very naive when it comes to the Wardens in general and Duncan specifically. Duncan was not recruited because it's an honor, he was recruited as a punishment for murdering the Commander of the Grey.

Why didn't Duncan ever tell Alistair that? There is so many things Duncan fails to tell Alistair. Really, most of what we see of the Wardens show a general incompetence and sometimes outright stupidity.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Why didn't Duncan ever tell Alistair that? There is so many things Duncan fails to tell Alistair. Really, most of what we see of the Wardens show a general incompetence and sometimes outright stupidity.

I've wondered why Duncan never told Alistair how an Archdemon dies. Even Flemeth questions you about it after Ostagar, although on first run-through you think she's talking about killing it in a physical sense. They'd been in Ostagar for some time, Alistair had been a Warden for six months, and the Wardens knew it was a Blight and knew they'd have to kill an Archdemon. Yet Alistair still didn't know.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I think a lot of got scrapped due to the design shift of Alistair.



Because wasn't he intended to be a bit more seasoned and older(30). Compared to the young and puppy like Alistair that got released.

[Siduri]

I think it's possible to cast Loghain as a tragic antihero, but in my opinion it does the man no service to attempt to soft-peddle his crimes. They ARE crimes, hence the secrecy around "sedating" Eamon, hiring assassins, selling elves into slavery etc. And the moral contortions required to condone all these things while at the same time getting on a high-horse about "executing a man in front of his child" are frankly pretty ridiculous.



The reason I like Loghain as a character is that he is the ultimate embodiment of the "ends justify the means" philosophy. He is a moral utilitarian -- he will make any sacrifice to achieve the greater good -- and he is utterly, utterly ruthless once he has committed himself to a course of action. It's entirely possible to argue that he does evil things but is not himself evil; the opposite argument can also be easily made. For those who have taken Philosophy 101, it basically depends on whether you're willing to embrace utilitarianism or whether you hold to Kantian ethics. This is an argument that philosophers have been having for a very long time; Gaider and company just dressed it up in a video game.

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Except Riordan probably had known Duncan for a longer period of time.
I don't think Alistair actually knew Duncan, just projected onto Duncan the father he never had (and it's quite understandable). And hence why he is very naive when it comes to the Wardens in general and Duncan specifically. Duncan was not recruited because it's an honor, he was recruited as a punishment for murdering the Commander of the Grey.

Why didn't Duncan ever tell Alistair that? There is so many things Duncan fails to tell Alistair. Really, most of what we see of the Wardens show a general incompetence and sometimes outright stupidity.

We see little of the Wardens at all, and only get to meet a couple of recruits.
 
And by incompetence and stupidity, are you speaking of Riordin asking to spare Loghain?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Why didn't Duncan ever tell Alistair that? There is so many things Duncan fails to tell Alistair. Really, most of what we see of the Wardens show a general incompetence and sometimes outright stupidity.

I've wondered why Duncan never told Alistair how an Archdemon dies. Even Flemeth questions you about it after Ostagar, although on first run-through you think she's talking about killing it in a physical sense. They'd been in Ostagar for some time, Alistair had been a Warden for six months, and the Wardens knew it was a Blight and knew they'd have to kill an Archdemon. Yet Alistair still didn't know.

The simple answer is because Duncan and the Grey wardens are incompetent.

Game wise, it's to force that Landsmeet choice.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
We see little of the Wardens at all, and only get to meet a couple of recruits.
 

Riordan not taking the time to explain to the kid Alistair why having more Wardens is necessary.
Duncan not bothering to tell Alistair how an archdemon is killed and how he became a Warden.
Wardens thinking it's a good idea to come with 4 Orlesian Legions instead of coming alone and requesting the Orlesians to remain on stand by.
Duncan not making it perfectly clear for Cailan that his child fantasies are not real.
Orlesian Wardens failing epically in Vigil's Keep and if what the Architect says is true, not even bothering to talk with a talking darkspawn because you know, that's so common, just kill kill kill.

Yes, they are incompetent.

[Persephone]

Siduri wrote...

I think it's possible to cast Loghain as a tragic antihero, but in my opinion it does the man no service to attempt to soft-peddle his crimes. They ARE crimes, hence the secrecy around "sedating" Eamon, hiring assassins, selling elves into slavery etc. And the moral contortions required to condone all these things while at the same time getting on a high-horse about "executing a man in front of his child" are frankly pretty ridiculous..

Don't put words in my mouth. I am not condoning slavery or anything, but having studied history, I know that there is more to war than honor, flying banners and fairy tales. I will get on a high horse if Loghain Haters will say "He is such a vile monster!" and "I enjoy killing him in front of his daughter." in the same breath. This is hypocrisy. To put it mildly.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Why didn't Duncan ever tell Alistair that? There is so many things Duncan fails to tell Alistair. Really, most of what we see of the Wardens show a general incompetence and sometimes outright stupidity.

I've wondered why Duncan never told Alistair how an Archdemon dies. Even Flemeth questions you about it after Ostagar, although on first run-through you think she's talking about killing it in a physical sense. They'd been in Ostagar for some time, Alistair had been a Warden for six months, and the Wardens knew it was a Blight and knew they'd have to kill an Archdemon. Yet Alistair still didn't know.

The simple answer is because Duncan and the Grey wardens are incompetent.

Game wise, it's to force that Landsmeet choice.

Agreed, but I'd prefer that Alistair knew and didn't tell you. Throughout most of the game you're not in a position to fight the Archdemon, and I think if he had known, it would have made for an interesting discussion with Riordan.

And even if Alistair had known, I doubt he'd have been on board with making Loghain a Warden or letting him kill the Archdemon and possibly become a hero. Even more dodgy "I know what you're talking about but I don't care" conversation at the Landsmeet.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Siduri wrote...
 For those who have taken Philosophy 101, it basically depends on whether you're willing to embrace utilitarianism or whether you hold to Kantian ethics.

Might I add that Kant would probably regard all our PCs as morally bad, because what our PCs do cannot become, in his mind, a universal law. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
And even if Alistair had known, I doubt he'd have been on board with making Loghain a Warden or letting him kill the Archdemon and possibly become a hero. Even more dodgy "I know what you're talking about but I don't care" conversation at the Landsmeet.

That would have made him even more foolish.

[DragonRacer13]

Andraste's flaming knickers, this thread exploded into Thread # 1,845,396 about why Loghain is or isn't evil (and possibly the Ultimate Reason that the Grinch stole Christmas).

Do I need to turn on the water hose and start spraying y'all down? Simma down nah!

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
And even if Alistair had known, I doubt he'd have been on board with making Loghain a Warden or letting him kill the Archdemon and possibly become a hero. Even more dodgy "I know what you're talking about but I don't care" conversation at the Landsmeet.

That would have made him even more foolish.

:innocent:

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Riordan not taking the time to explain to the kid Alistair why having more Wardens is necessary.
Duncan not bothering to tell Alistair how an archdemon is killed and how he became a Warden.
Wardens thinking it's a good idea to come with 4 Orlesian Legions instead of coming alone and requesting the Orlesians to remain on stand by.
Duncan not making it perfectly clear for Cailan that his child fantasies are not real.
Orlesian Wardens failing epically in Vigil's Keep and if what the Architect says is true, not even bothering to talk with a talking darkspawn because you know, that's so common, just kill kill kill.

Yes, they are incompetent.

1. While Riordin had the time, he mentions this oversight in Redcliff. Lack of proper communication is still one of the greatest problems in the military. And marriage. Same difference....

2. Alistair mentions beheading in the Joining, and is not corrected. Based on the cutscene w/Archie, this seems accurate. But he was not informed that it had to be a Warden., so this is again more miscommunication. But how do we know Alistair is not aware of Duncan's past? Or are we assuming this because it is not mentioned?

3. Wish the legions had been at Ostagar; might not have been as much of a loss as much when Loghain retreated.

4, Yes. Correcting the King is always a good idea for lesser troops and officers. Plus that is Loghain's role.

5. From what little I know of Awakening, the Architect sent The Withered, and both the Wardens and this speaking Darkspawn were guilty of miscommunication, Or was kicking the soldier to his death simply being persuasive?

I actually agree that the entire secrecy thing is an Epic Fail, and one that my Wardens attempt to change when linked dialogue choices appear. But Anora knows a little, as do some in the Circle as they helped prepare the Joining blood. But incompetence is a bit too strong a description for me.

Now I see all that and raise you Arl Howe, and making him advisor, and granting him extra toadie titles,

[Giggles_Manically]

See I dont agree with Calian, or you Elhanan.



Duncan is the expert on darkspawn, and fighting them yet he never told Calian dont be a idiot and risk your life. Loghain did, and he ignored him, his death was his own doing.