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[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
1. While Riordin had the time, he mentions this oversight in Redcliff. Lack of proper communication is still one of the greatest problems in the military. And marriage. Same difference....

Incompetence all the same. If you can't spare the time to say a sentence or two.

Elhanan wrote...
2. Alistair mentions beheading in the Joining, and is not corrected. Based on the cutscene w/Archie, this seems accurate. But he was not informed that it had to be a Warden., so this is again more miscommunication. But how do we know Alistair is not aware of Duncan's past? Or are we assuming this because it is not mentioned?

We dont' actually behead the Archdemon, no. I know he was not informed, and it's incompetence. Duncan had 6 months to tell him that. 
And if Alistair does know about Duncan's past, then he is a hypocrit. Duncan's conscription to the Wardens was punishment, which apparently now can't be done with Loghain.

Elhanan wrote...
4, Yes. Correcting the King is always a good idea for lesser troops and officers. Plus that is Loghain's role.

Duncan is not Cailan's officer and he is not obliged to be there. At all.
And Loghain tried. Cailan needed a slap to reality from a Warden.

Elhanan wrote...
5. From what little I know of Awakening, the Architect sent The Withered, and both the Wardens and this speaking Darkspawn were guilty of miscommunication, Or was kicking the soldier to his death simply being persuasive?

That's after the Wardens attacked the Withered and didn't give him time to explain.

[Giggles_Manically]

Ah no KoP the Withered says at the end of his convo "I came here to capture you, and take the keep".

Its debateable and what the Architect says is probably him trying to cover up the attack.



If you are attacked first, you fall back if you are trying to talk, not launch an all out assault on a keep.

Just another example of how the architect fails.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Ah no KoP the Withered says at the end of his convo "I came here to capture you, and take the keep".
Its debateable and what the Architect says is probably him trying to cover up the attack.

If you are attacked first, you fall back if you are trying to talk, not launch an all out assault on a keep.
Just another example of how the architect fails.

The architect doesn't really need to do that. All he needs is a bit of blood (he took ours). If he could take that blood in peace, why would he try to capture the keep? He doens't need to.

Eh anyways, it's not really important.
Orlesian Wardens still fail for getting wiped out that easily.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Ah no KoP the Withered says at the end of his convo "I came here to capture you, and take the keep".
Its debateable and what the Architect says is probably him trying to cover up the attack.

If you are attacked first, you fall back if you are trying to talk, not launch an all out assault on a keep.
Just another example of how the architect fails.

The architect doesn't really need to do that. All he needs is a bit of blood (he took ours). If he could take that blood in peace, why would he try to capture the keep? He doens't need to.

Eh anyways, it's not really important.
Orlesian Wardens still fail for getting wiped out that easily.

True enough.
Dosent stop me from turning the architect into a funny looking stain though,

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote... *snip*

Duncan is not Cailan's officer and he is not obliged to be there. At all.
And Loghain tried. Cailan needed a slap to reality from a Warden.

Duncan and Loghain are lesser in authority to the King of Ferelden. Loghain forgets that multiple times, esp upon retreating before the King is overwhelmed by the Darkspawn.

While one may not like the ruler, my guess is it not an elected position, and that free speech and all is not enjoyed by most in this culture. Even todays troops cannot speak out against their Commander w/o facing disipline; guessing the Landsmeet type of justice was more prevelent in Ferelden for the same infraction..

Loghain is guilty of regicide, blatant disregard for the safety of others, and speeding while getting the heck out of Dodge.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
Duncan and Loghain are lesser in authority to the King of Ferelden. Loghain forgets that multiple times, esp upon retreating before the King is overwhelmed by the Darkspawn.

Duncan is not. He has no obligation whatsoever to be in Ferelden.
Yes, Loghain should have sacrificed eveyrthing to save the idiot pathetic excuse of a king.

Elhanan wrote...
While one may not like the ruler, my guess is it not an elected position, and that free speech and all is not enjoyed by most in this culture. Even todays troops cannot speak out against their Commander w/o facing disipline; guessing the Landsmeet type of justice was more prevelent in Ferelden for the same infraction..

The king of Ferelden is in fact pseudo elected by the Landsmeet. A Teyrn cannot be bossed around by the king, especially not one who happens to be the general of Fereldfen's armies and a tad more experienced than that imbecile. We know that Cailan and Loghain argued all the time and Cailan always eventually listened to reason and did what Loghain told him, except this time because his child like fantasies were coming true.

And I am not going to address the accusations of regicide again. It's tiresome to have to repeat the same thing over and over again.
What Maric said sumarizes the argument. Ferelden is more important than any king. Especially one like Cailan.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 septembre 2010 - 05:47 .

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...
Duncan and Loghain are lesser in authority to the King of Ferelden. Loghain forgets that multiple times, esp upon retreating before the King is overwhelmed by the Darkspawn.

Duncan is a lesser authority to no one. Grey Wardens are not bound to any nation or king. And Loghain saved half the troops by leaving when he did. Cailan was the one who insisted on putting himself on the front lines, disregarding the advice of a much more seasoned general and tactician. Sometimes people just die, and sometimes people die because they're stupid.

While one may not like the ruler, my guess is it not an elected position, and that free speech and all is not enjoyed by most in this culture. Even todays troops cannot speak out against their Commander w/o facing disipline; guessing the Landsmeet type of justice was more prevelent in Ferelden for the same infraction.

Except the ruler in Ferelden is an elected position. It's determined at the Landsmeet. Bryce Cousland had enough support to at least become a strong contender opposing Cailan for the throne, but backed Cailan instead. And this is a medieval setting. The strong ones determine who wins and who loses, and what "rights" are given and what aren't.

Loghain is guilty of regicide, blatant disregard for the safety of others, and speeding while getting the heck out of Dodge.

Unless you can prove that Loghain is a shapeshifter and turned himself into an ogre, no, he is not guilty of regicide.

[Wulfram]

If Loghain was justified in his actions Ostagar, it certainly does follow that Duncan is an idiot.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Duncan and Loghain are lesser in authority to the King of Ferelden. Loghain forgets that multiple times, esp upon retreating before the King is overwhelmed by the Darkspawn.

Duncan is not. He has no obligation whatsoever to be in Ferelden.
Yes, Loghain should have sacrificed eveyrthing to save the idiot pathetic excuse of a king.

Elhanan wrote...
While one may not like the ruler, my guess is it not an elected position, and that free speech and all is not enjoyed by most in this culture. Even todays troops cannot speak out against their Commander w/o facing disipline; guessing the Landsmeet type of justice was more prevelent in Ferelden for the same infraction..

The king of Ferelden is in fact pseudo elected by the Landsmeet. A Teyrn cannot be bossed around by the king, especially not one who happens to be the general of Fereldfen's armies and a tad more experienced than that imbecile. We know that Cailan and Loghain argued all the time and Cailan always eventually listened to reason and did what Loghain told him, except this time because his child like fantasies were coming true.

And I am not going to address the accusations of regicide again. It's tiresome to have to repeat the same thing over and over again.
What Maric said sumarizes the argument. Ferelden is more important than any king. Especially one like Cailan.

And that is why KOP rules the world.

[Persephone]

MariSkep wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote... *snip*

Duncan is not Cailan's officer and he is not obliged to be there. At all.
And Loghain tried. Cailan needed a slap to reality from a Warden.

Duncan and Loghain are lesser in authority to the King of Ferelden. Loghain forgets that multiple times, esp upon retreating before the King is overwhelmed by the Darkspawn.

Not that I think Loghain's attempts to get Cailan to stay back were entirely genuine,

What your basing this on? Why would he say/ask/demand him to stay back time and time again unless he meant it? Makes no sense. I posted some Loghain dialogue that was cut from the game a while back. Yes, they were genuine and sincere. Harsh, maybe. But if you have a fool for a king, sweet words won't cut through the idiot's reverie.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
And that is why KOP rules the world.

[xXhayleyroxXx]

Persephone wrote...

1) Alistair is an adult, or at least he should be. Behaving like a selfish man-child if he doesn't get his way. No, I'll not butcher Loghain to please his bloodlust. Alistair abandons his duty, his friends and everything to become a useless drunkard. His choice. My Warden sparing Loghain did not force him to act like a child.

2) Loghain is an ogre? WOW.....

3) Read up on the Wardens... it may make things more understandable.

There's no need to be so rude tbh. If you spare Loghain, you haven't listened to Alistair, and don't care about him -- which my character does - which is why I don't spare him.
And no, so Loghain wasn't the ogre -- but he could have prevented his death, thus indirectly killing Cailen.
And I know about the wardens, but Loghain went power-mad. Thus he should die for his crimes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

xXhayleyroxXx wrote...
If you spare Loghain, you haven't listened to Alistair, and don't care about him -- which my character does - which is why I don't spare him.

So you kill people based on you caring for Alistair?

Hypothetically. Imagine if Alistair doesn't mind. Would you spare Loghain or not? 

[Persephone]

xXhayleyroxXx wrote...

Persephone wrote...

1) Alistair is an adult, or at least he should be. Behaving like a selfish man-child if he doesn't get his way. No, I'll not butcher Loghain to please his bloodlust. Alistair abandons his duty, his friends and everything to become a useless drunkard. His choice. My Warden sparing Loghain did not force him to act like a child.

2) Loghain is an ogre? WOW.....

3) Read up on the Wardens... it may make things more understandable.

There's no need to be so rude tbh. If you spare Loghain, you haven't listened to Alistair, and don't care about him -- which my character does - which is why I don't spare him.
And no, so Loghain wasn't the ogre -- but he could have prevented his death, thus indirectly killing Cailen.
And I know about the wardens, but Loghain went power-mad. Thus he should die for his crimes.

1) How very black & white of you. Most of my characters care about Alistair and they all listen to him. But because I care about him, I won't kill to satisfy his childish bloodlust. The whole idea "If you luff Alistair, you MUST kill Loghain!" makes me sick. Spare him once. Talk to him. Kindly. He is a fascinating character.

2) Prevent it? How? By charging into an already overrun battlefield? Duncan "could" have saved Cailan too. So did he kill him indirectly too?

3) You obviously don't know. Because Power-mad is one of the few things he is not. 

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

xXhayleyroxXx wrote...
If you spare Loghain, you haven't listened to Alistair, and don't care about him -- which my character does - which is why I don't spare him.

So you kill people based on you caring for Alistair?

Hypothetically. Imagine if Alistair doesn't mind. Would you spare Loghain or not? 

It's one of the most popular "reasons". "If I spare Loghain, Alistair will leave me. I have no choice." Sad, isn't it?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
It's one of the most popular "reasons". "If I spare Loghain, Alistair will leave me. I have no choice." Sad, isn't it?

While I am sure I'd find the idea of women killing people solely based on my whims and my threats of leaving them for good to be interesting, I personally would quickly find that disturbing and even revolting.

But eh, if that's a reason for people, then whatever floats their boats.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 septembre 2010 - 06:06 .

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Duncan is not. He has no obligation whatsoever to be in Ferelden.
Yes, Loghain should have sacrificed eveyrthing to save the idiot pathetic excuse of a king.

Yep; his duty. And then it might not have been a sacrifice.

The king of Ferelden is in fact pseudo elected by the Landsmeet. A Teyrn cannot be bossed around by the king, especially not one who happens to be the general of Fereldfen's armies and a tad more experienced than that imbecile. We know that Cailan and Loghain argued all the time and Cailan always eventually listened to reason and did what Loghain told him, except this time because his child like fantasies were coming true.

My bad. Good to know. But the role of authority is still the Throne; not with the lesser general.

And I am not going to address the accusations of regicide again. It's tiresome to have to repeat the same thing over and over again.
What Maric said sumarizes the argument. Ferelden is more important than any king. Especially one like Cailan

One side may not like the charge, but it is one obtained within the game itself. I simply remind folks of it, whether they are of a like mind or not. Too bad Loghain considered his role more important than Ferelden, and his oath to his King. Of course, he did not know that killing all the Wardens might be a bad idea, as he is ignorant of the facts.

Strange; he did not know everything after all.....

[CalJones]

Duncan isn't part of Fereldan's heirarchy. He's commander of the Fereldan wardens, but the wardens are supposedly neutral, or at least, an international organisation. He shows a certain respect towards Cailan but he's not actually obliged to take orders from him; rather, to work with him and offer suggestions.

As for Loghain, he is indeed lower down the chain than the king, but if he believes Cailan, and those troops already engaged in battle, are a lost cause, then he has every reason to withdraw. It makes no sense for him to get himself and the rest of the army killed.

If he walked away from a battle that could easily be won, then you might have a point. However, he didn't think it could be won and if the man famous for winning impossible battles thinks that, he's probably right.
(edit: took so long to write this I got ninja'd)

Modifié par CalJones, 24 septembre 2010 - 06:08 .

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

Strange; he did not know everything after all.....

The lack of information in DAO is kinda frustrating. If I were my Warden, the idea of NOT knowing just WHY I am needed to kill Archie would drive me insane.

[Monica21]

xXhayleyroxXx wrote...
If you spare Loghain, you haven't listened to Alistair, and don't care about him -- which my character does - which is why I don't spare him.

There's a difference between caring about someone and being willing to blindly kill just because someone said "Kill him already!"

I actually do care about Alistair and I have killed Loghain because of Alistair and then just let Alistiar kill Loghain so I wouldn't have to make the decision myself. It doesn't change my mind at this point though, that killing Loghain is a bad idea and that Alistair's decisions are his own.

Modifié par Monica21, 24 septembre 2010 - 06:10 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
Yep; his duty. And then it might not have been a sacrifice.

His duty is above all else to Ferelden. Not Cailan.