486 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wow - so they never officially made peace, although the game codex says they did. Even then, that's not enough to consider the war over even after 30 years.

So then, are we still fighting World War II? Or I? Is the American Revolution still going on? England and France still at war? When exactly does a war end?

Wow. Just . . . wow.

The war is over, but that doesn't mean Orlais should be ignored. The U.S. "fought" the British for decades after the Revolution, peace treaties included. The British even tried to help the South defeat the North during our own Civil War. Seventy years of a brutal occupation doesn't exactly lead to hand-holding and singing 30 years later. Most of the nobles would like to forget the occupation, but those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Loghain was right to be cautious of the Chevaliers on the border. Celene also proves much more cunning than former rulers, in trying to secure Ferelden by marriage.

See, you I can actually dicuss this with.

Ignore Orlais?  I never said that.  Be cautious?  Sure.

But remember, those chevaliers on the border were invited by Caillan - they weren't massing there on Celene's orders to invade.  There's a difference, even if Loghain doesn't want to see it.

Also, we don't know - or do we? -  whether Celene approached Caillan, or he appoached her.

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...
Surely Celene has better things to do than get bogged down conquering as stubborn, poor, backward and wet dog smelling as Ferelden?

Of course she does. Marrying to secure the throne for her heirs is far simpler than sending in an invading force.

Unless Loghain forced her into it, of course.  He does seem to be doing his best to provoke a war, and outlawing the grey wardens during a blight could make it seem almost a necessity.

Really?

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
Ignore Orlais?  I never said that.  Be cautious?  Sure.

But remember, those chevaliers on the border were invited by Caillan - they weren't massing there on Celene's orders to invade.  There's a difference, even if Loghain doesn't want to see it.

True, but even without a civil war Ferelden is in a precarious state. The land is being overrun by darkspawn and even if Loghain doesn't know it's a blight, he knows that a weakened nation can be easily overrun if they aren't paying attention. Loghain didn't invade Orlais either, although we hear rumors of skirmishes on the border. It's unlikely that there were any orders by Loghain to engage, but simply to guard.

Also, we don't know - or do we? -  whether Celene approached Caillan, or he appoached her.

No, we don't know. Both have selfish reasons for approaching the other though.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Ignore Orlais?  I never said that.  Be cautious?  Sure.

But remember, those chevaliers on the border were invited by Caillan - they weren't massing there on Celene's orders to invade.  There's a difference, even if Loghain doesn't want to see it.

True, but even without a civil war Ferelden is in a precarious state. The land is being overrun by darkspawn and even if Loghain doesn't know it's a blight, he knows that a weakened nation can be easily overrun if they aren't paying attention. Loghain didn't invade Orlais either, although we hear rumors of skirmishes on the border. It's unlikely that there were any orders by Loghain to engage, but simply to guard.

Also, we don't know - or do we? -  whether Celene approached Caillan, or he appoached her.

No, we don't know. Both have selfish reasons for approaching the other though.

Well, we can argue about why there even is a Civil War, but that will get us noplace.

However, if it's equally as likely that Caillan approached Celene, how does that equate to Celene being 'up to something'?  Caillan saw an opportunity - I assume - to advance his nations interests, and sure, maybe get some more titles for himself.  Celene may have seen that as an opportunity to take back what OrlaIs had lost, but if it wasn't her idea at first, is it so nefarious for her to see the upside to herself?

[Wulfram]

Monica21 wrote...

Of course she does. Marrying to secure the throne for her heirs is far simpler than sending in an invading force.

She can't win, can she?  A treaty is not seen as binding, but an attempt to secure that treaty through marriage is a sign of malicious intent.

It's not as if any children of the marriage - if there were to be any, which given her age and Cailan's fruitless marriage to Anora may be doubted - would be able to claim the throne without the backing of the landsmeet, anyway.

Unless Loghain forced her into it, of course.  He does seem to be doing his best to provoke a war, and outlawing the grey wardens during a blight could make it seem almost a necessity.

Really?

Absolutely.  The Grey Wardens will tell her that Ferelden is doomed without them, and Orlais cannot afford to let the Blight run unchecked on its border.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
However, if it's equally as likely that Caillan approached Celene, how does that equate to Celene being 'up to something'?  Caillan saw an opportunity - I assume - to advance his nations interests, and sure, maybe get some more titles for himself.  Celene may have seen that as an opportunity to take back what OrlaIs had lost, but if it wasn't her idea at first, is it so nefarious for her to see the upside to herself?

No matter who approached who, it's still ridiculous idea for Cailan to even consider. He's not exactly a long-term thinker. Something makes me think that Loghain's line about Cailan being ready to hand Ferelden over to the country that enslaved it was written before they took the Celene in Denerim part out of the game. No, Celene can't be faulted for it, but it still doesn't mean it's a good idea for Ferelden.

What I see (which is probably very different from what you see, but that's fine) is Loghain trying to protect Ferelden from its King, and also trying to protect the King from himself. At some point you just give up.

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...
She can't win, can she?  A treaty is not seen as binding, but an attempt to secure that treaty through marriage is a sign of malicious intent.

It's not as if any children of the marriage - if there were to be any, which given her age and Cailan's fruitless marriage to Anora may be doubted - would be able to claim the throne without the backing of the landsmeet, anyway.

First, "securing the treaty" is not the same as marriage. And what makes you think they can't disband the Landsmeet? Given the love Fereldens have for Theirin blood, if there were an heir, I'm not sure he or she wouldn't be put on the throne.

ETA: No, in my book, Celene can't win. I believe that her goal in this is to ultimately put an Orlesian on the Ferelden throne, even if that Orlesian's last name is Theirin.

Absolutely.  The Grey Wardens will tell her that Ferelden is doomed without them, and Orlais cannot afford to let the Blight run unchecked on its border.

That's not the same as Loghain provoking a war, however. Your statement made it sound as if he was deliberately prodding Orlais to get them to invade, when the opposite is true.

Modifié par Monica21, 26 septembre 2010 - 06:35 .

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
However, if it's equally as likely that Caillan approached Celene, how does that equate to Celene being 'up to something'?  Caillan saw an opportunity - I assume - to advance his nations interests, and sure, maybe get some more titles for himself.  Celene may have seen that as an opportunity to take back what OrlaIs had lost, but if it wasn't her idea at first, is it so nefarious for her to see the upside to herself?

No matter who approached who, it's still ridiculous idea for Cailan to even consider. He's not exactly a long-term thinker. Something makes me think that Loghain's line about Cailan being ready to hand Ferelden over to the country that enslaved it was written before they took the Celene in Denerim part out of the game. No, Celene can't be faulted for it, but it still doesn't mean it's a good idea for Ferelden.

What I see (which is probably very different from what you see, but that's fine) is Loghain trying to protect Ferelden from its King, and also trying to protect the King from himself. At some point you just give up.

I don't know.  Isn't part of a King's job to make things better for his people?  If Caillan could do this with a marriage to Celene, shouldn't he consider it?  It might eliminate a possible invasion, possible enslavement, might make economic conditions better.  There certainly (IMO) seem to be possible benefits here.

Now, for someone like Loghain, I can see where he'd be opposed to that - Ferelden for Fereldans, we'll make it on our own kind of thing.  So, from that frame of mind, I can see where he think - and you'd agree - he was protecting Ferelden from Caillan, and/or Caillan from himself.  I'm not so sure that gives him the right to unilaterally decide to take action.  I know we're going to disagree on that, so just take it as framing my point of view here.

Maybe Caillan should have been more open, discussed it openly with people, gotten opinions.  After all, Kings, Queens, princes/princesses, etc. don't usually marry for love - it's usually to secure an alliance.  So maybe his mistake was not letting the nobility decide.  I think that would be a fair criticism.  But to consider him a fool for even contemplating this, or to make it seem like it's some nefarious plot on behalf of Celene, I'm not sure those views are fair at all.

[Wulfram]

Monica21 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
She can't win, can she?  A treaty is not seen as binding, but an attempt to secure that treaty through marriage is a sign of malicious intent.

It's not as if any children of the marriage - if there were to be any, which given her age and Cailan's fruitless marriage to Anora may be doubted - would be able to claim the throne without the backing of the landsmeet, anyway.

First, "securing the treaty" is not the same as marriage. And what makes you think they can't disband the Landsmeet? Given the love Fereldens have for Theirin blood, if there were an heir, I'm not sure he or she wouldn't be put on the throne.

Marriage is the best way to secure a treaty, in this sort of culture.

Messing with the landsmeet will soon have them fighting a war.  The bannorn protect their priviledges jealously, and resist attempts at tyranny.

The Landsmeet might agree to the succession, but as long as it exists and can choose the King, Ferelden is independent, even if it does share a ruler with Orlais.

Absolutely.  The Grey Wardens will tell her that Ferelden is doomed without them, and Orlais cannot afford to let the Blight run unchecked on its border.

That's not the same as Loghain provoking a war, however. Your statement made it sound as if he was deliberately prodding Orlais to get them to invade, when the opposite is true.

Deliberate intent is perhaps going a bit too far - though he apparently has dreams of an expanded Ferelden - but his actions are provocative even if he sees them as defensive, and his likely over reaction to the next border incident would bring war close even without the blight.

Modifié par Wulfram, 26 septembre 2010 - 06:53 .

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
I don't know.  Isn't part of a King's job to make things better for his people?  If Caillan could do this with a marriage to Celene, shouldn't he consider it?  It might eliminate a possible invasion, possible enslavement, might make economic conditions better.  There certainly (IMO) seem to be possible benefits here.

I'm unconvinced that Cailan is smart enough to be thinking of things like this by himself. Why can't he make things better for Ferelden by keeping them independent? Why does a marriage to an Empress help the Ferelden people? The only thing I see is that it gives him a new title.

Now, for someone like Loghain, I can see where he'd be opposed to that - Ferelden for Fereldans, we'll make it on our own kind of thing.  So, from that frame of mind, I can see where he think - and you'd agree - he was protecting Ferelden from Caillan, and/or Caillan from himself.  I'm not so sure that gives him the right to unilaterally decide to take action.  I know we're going to disagree on that, so just take it as framing my point of view here.

Well, I'd be opposed to it to, if we were talking about my country. If the U.S. and Canada decide to unite we'd all get free health care,
but I'm pretty sure most people on both sides would be opposed to it. With Ferelden and Orlais we're talking about a different language, a different culture, a different idea of rule, and vast differences in politics. Clearly they have a diplomatic relationship, but I wouldn't consider uniting to be a good thing for Ferelden.

Maybe Caillan should have been more open, discussed it openly with people, gotten opinions.  After all, Kings, Queens, princes/princesses, etc. don't usually marry for love - it's usually to secure an alliance.  So maybe his mistake was not letting the nobility decide.  I think that would be a fair criticism.  But to consider him a fool for even contemplating this, or to make it seem like it's some nefarious plot on behalf of Celene, I'm not sure those views are fair at all.

I do think it's a plot of Celene's, and a rather obvious one at that. She's trying to enlarge the Empire. What exactly would Ferelden stand to gain from it, and what does Cailan gain other than a title?

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...
Marriage is the best way to secure a treaty, in this sort of culture.

Possibly, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Messing with the landsmeet will soon have them fighting a war.  The bannorn protect their priviledges jealously, and resist attempts at tyranny.

Sure, and if they do end up fighting a war, who do you think will win? A dozen banns with small armies or a couple legions of Chevaliers?

The Landsmeet might agree to the succession, but as long as it exists and can choose the King, Ferelden is independent, even if it does share a ruler with Orlais.

Sharing a ruler is actually what extends an empire. An Orlesian ruler on the Ferelden throne makes Ferelden a de facto part of the empire.

Deliberate intent is perhaps going a bit too far - though he apparently has dreams of an expanded Ferelden - but his actions are provocative even if he sees them as defensive, and his likely over reaction to the next border incident would bring war close even without the blight.

I don't remember him having dreams of an expanded Ferelden. Where is this mentioned? I honestly don't know so I can't respond to that.

[Wulfram]

Monica21 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Marriage is the best way to secure a treaty, in this sort of culture.

Possibly, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Messing with the landsmeet will soon have them fighting a war.  The bannorn protect their priviledges jealously, and resist attempts at tyranny.

Sure, and if they do end up fighting a war, who do you think will win? A dozen banns with small armies or a couple legions of Chevaliers?

The Orlesians would win initially, as long as their other borders are reasonably quiet anyway.  But their last occupation ended in disaster, and Celene is clever enough to learn from history.

Sharing a ruler is actually what extends an empire. An Orlesian ruler on the Ferelden throne makes Ferelden a de facto part of the empire.

Dynastic union does not necessarily result in political union.  Ferelden's independence lies with its laws and traditions, not with its King

I don't remember him having dreams of an expanded Ferelden. Where is this mentioned? I honestly don't know so I can't respond to that.

Heis equipped with a belt item called Borders Yet To Be, the description of which is

An optimistic--some might say fanciful--map in a belt case, with the
borders of Ferelden adjusted to represent Loghain's machinations.
Whether he regards it as unfinished or folly is not forthcoming.

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Persephone wrote...

It was because of the civil war and the Blight eating up his resources and the Alienage being very hard to defend. No excuse for it, of course. But that is how it is. And the slavers themselves mention that they'll have to leave soon.

He won't be short of resources when fighting the mightiest nation in Thedas?

No. Not once the Blight and the Civil War are over. And did you miss the fact that the slavers themselves said they wouldn't be able to operate there much longer? How long have they been at it? A few weeks?

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I don't know.  Isn't part of a King's job to make things better for his people?  If Caillan could do this with a marriage to Celene, shouldn't he consider it?  It might eliminate a possible invasion, possible enslavement, might make economic conditions better.  There certainly (IMO) seem to be possible benefits here.

I'm unconvinced that Cailan is smart enough to be thinking of things like this by himself. Why can't he make things better for Ferelden by keeping them independent? Why does a marriage to an Empress help the Ferelden people? The only thing I see is that it gives him a new title.

Now, for someone like Loghain, I can see where he'd be opposed to that - Ferelden for Fereldans, we'll make it on our own kind of thing.  So, from that frame of mind, I can see where he think - and you'd agree - he was protecting Ferelden from Caillan, and/or Caillan from himself.  I'm not so sure that gives him the right to unilaterally decide to take action.  I know we're going to disagree on that, so just take it as framing my point of view here.

Well, I'd be opposed to it to, if we were talking about my country. If the U.S. and Canada decide to unite we'd all get free health care,
but I'm pretty sure most people on both sides would be opposed to it. With Ferelden and Orlais we're talking about a different language, a different culture, a different idea of rule, and vast differences in politics. Clearly they have a diplomatic relationship, but I wouldn't consider uniting to be a good thing for Ferelden.

Maybe Caillan should have been more open, discussed it openly with people, gotten opinions.  After all, Kings, Queens, princes/princesses, etc. don't usually marry for love - it's usually to secure an alliance.  So maybe his mistake was not letting the nobility decide.  I think that would be a fair criticism.  But to consider him a fool for even contemplating this, or to make it seem like it's some nefarious plot on behalf of Celene, I'm not sure those views are fair at all.

I do think it's a plot of Celene's, and a rather obvious one at that. She's trying to enlarge the Empire. What exactly would Ferelden stand to gain from it, and what does Cailan gain other than a title?

1.  He might not be smart enough to have thought it up on his own.  I grant you he doesn't seem the sharpest knife in the drawer.  But I'm not sure we have enough to declare him a total idiot.  Glory-hound, yes.  Drunk on his own titles?  Maybe.  But could he have conceived this idea on his own, or came up with it based on other suggestions?  Maybe.  Perhaps Eamon suggesting he put aside Anora got Caillan thnking about possible other brides.  His lust for titles leads him to consider other high nobles, and other rulers, which brings him to Celene.  So, it could have been his idea.  Ultimately, we don't know.

2.  I'd probably agree with you, personally, especially if it meant calling a country by another name.  But the US annexed Texas, which was briefly an independant nation, also annexed quite a bit of land, making it part of the US.  Other countries have expanded that way as well, taking otherwise unclaimed land and calling it their own (and yes, I'm kind of glossing over native tribes in that statement, but I don't want that discussion).  Sometimes countries HAVE merged into a whole - see the Soviet Union, see Great Britain (not saying these are always good things, just that they happen).
A union with Orlais COULD bring Ferelden a greater economy, for instance, more skilled workers, access to other trade routes, better bargaining position with other countries, etc.  There are possible benefits.  Obviously, the question of whether those possible benefits makes it acceptable is up for debate.

3.  Well, I know you think that.  But, if Caillan approached her and made the suggestion - which you seemed to concede was possible earlier - I don't see how it can be "her plot".

I'm also not necessarily saying it's a GREAT idea on Caillan's part, both for the history between the countries, and the possible giving up of independance.  I'm just saying that it COULD be his idea, it's not ALL bad, and it may NOT be part of an Orlaisan plot.

[Persephone]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wow - so they never officially made peace, although the game codex says they did. Even then, that's not enough to consider the war over even after 30 years.

So then, are we still fighting World War II? Or I? Is the American Revolution still going on? England and France still at war? When exactly does a war end?

Wow. Just . . . wow.

The war is over, but that doesn't mean Orlais should be ignored. The U.S. "fought" the British for decades after the Revolution, peace treaties included. The British even tried to help the South defeat the North during our own Civil War. Seventy years of a brutal occupation doesn't exactly lead to hand-holding and singing 30 years later. Most of the nobles would like to forget the occupation, but those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Loghain was right to be cautious of the Chevaliers on the border. Celene also proves much more cunning than former rulers, in trying to secure Ferelden by marriage.

Exactly. And she won't be able to give Cailan an heir either, given that she is much older than Anora. So Eamon's awesome "Ditch the queen for a better baby machine (Celene)" idea is as callous as it is worthless in the long run.

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wow - so they never officially made peace, although the game codex says they did. Even then, that's not enough to consider the war over even after 30 years.

So then, are we still fighting World War II? Or I? Is the American Revolution still going on? England and France still at war? When exactly does a war end?

Wow. Just . . . wow.

The war is over, but that doesn't mean Orlais should be ignored. The U.S. "fought" the British for decades after the Revolution, peace treaties included. The British even tried to help the South defeat the North during our own Civil War. Seventy years of a brutal occupation doesn't exactly lead to hand-holding and singing 30 years later. Most of the nobles would like to forget the occupation, but those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Loghain was right to be cautious of the Chevaliers on the border. Celene also proves much more cunning than former rulers, in trying to secure Ferelden by marriage.

Exactly. And she won't be able to give Cailan an heir either, given that she is much older than Anora. So Eamon's awesome "Ditch the queen for a better baby machine (Celene)" idea is as callous as it is worthless in the long run.

1.  See my discussion with Monica about this issue, above.
2.  Eamon does NOT suggest Caillan marry Celene.  He suggests putting Anora aside.  There's a difference.

[Persephone]

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wow - so they never officially made peace, although the game codex says they did. Even then, that's not enough to consider the war over even after 30 years.

So then, are we still fighting World War II? Or I? Is the American Revolution still going on? England and France still at war? When exactly does a war end?

Wow. Just . . . wow.

The war is over, but that doesn't mean Orlais should be ignored. The U.S. "fought" the British for decades after the Revolution, peace treaties included. The British even tried to help the South defeat the North during our own Civil War. Seventy years of a brutal occupation doesn't exactly lead to hand-holding and singing 30 years later. Most of the nobles would like to forget the occupation, but those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Loghain was right to be cautious of the Chevaliers on the border. Celene also proves much more cunning than former rulers, in trying to secure Ferelden by marriage.

Exactly. And she won't be able to give Cailan an heir either, given that she is much older than Anora. So Eamon's awesome "Ditch the queen for a better baby machine (Celene)" idea is as callous as it is worthless in the long run.

1.  See my discussion with Monica about this issue, above.
2.  Eamon does NOT suggest Caillan marry Celene.  He suggests putting Anora aside.  There's a difference.

1) *Reading* Very interesting stuff from Monica & you.
2) Connect the dots. Add 2+2. Remember who Eamon is married to. It all points in one direction. 

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...

1.  He might not be smart enough to have thought it up on his own.  I grant you he doesn't seem the sharpest knife in the drawer.  But I'm not sure we have enough to declare him a total idiot.  Glory-hound, yes.  Drunk on his own titles?  Maybe.  But could he have conceived this idea on his own, or came up with it based on other suggestions?  Maybe.  Perhaps Eamon suggesting he put aside Anora got Caillan thnking about possible other brides.  His lust for titles leads him to consider other high nobles, and other rulers, which brings him to Celene.  So, it could have been his idea.  Ultimately, we don't know.

I don't deny any of this, but I don't see how it's a good idea.

2.  I'd probably agree with you, personally, especially if it meant calling a country by another name.  But the US annexed Texas, which was briefly an independant nation, also annexed quite a bit of land, making it part of the US.  Other countries have expanded that way as well, taking otherwise unclaimed land and calling it their own (and yes, I'm kind of glossing over native tribes in that statement, but I don't want that discussion).  Sometimes countries HAVE merged into a whole - see the Soviet Union, see Great Britain (not saying these are always good things, just that they happen).
A union with Orlais COULD bring Ferelden a greater economy, for instance, more skilled workers, access to other trade routes, better bargaining position with other countries, etc.  There are possible benefits.  Obviously, the question of whether those possible benefits makes it acceptable is up for debate.

Texas actually asked to be part of the union. They were too small to hold their own against Mexico and the U.S., so they chose the U.S. And I'm with you on not wanting to get into the issue of native tribes, but the land was largely unclaimed and mostly wilderness, what with the native tribes not really having a concept of land ownership and borders.

The biggest problem I see with such a union is that Ferelden and Orlais are vastly different countries. If they had the same language and similar cultures and similar ruling methods, then maybe not so bad, but as it is, Ferelden culture would ultimately be wiped out.. We saw the beginnings of this with Meghren trying to make Denerim more like Val Royeaux, not only in how he decorated the palace but in the balls he held.

3.  Well, I know you think that.  But, if Caillan approached her and made the suggestion - which you seemed to concede was possible earlier - I don't see how it can be "her plot".

I'm also not necessarily saying it's a GREAT idea on Caillan's part, both for the history between the countries, and the possible giving up of independance.  I'm just saying that it COULD be his idea, it's not ALL bad, and it may NOT be part of an Orlaisan plot.

I think it is an Orlesian plot, but a subtle one. Even if Cailan did approach her, Celene would be foolish not to see the possibility of advancing Orlesian borders and taking back Ferelden without a war. If Celene produces an heir or two, then her heirs have a legitimate claim to the Ferelden throne. Whether they can succeed in claiming the throne without war is something that would remain to be seen, but it's still there.

[nos_astra]

Persephone wrote...
1) *Reading* Very interesting stuff from Monica & you.
2) Connect the dots. Add 2+2. Remember who Eamon is married to. It all points in one direction. 

It didn't occur to you there there might be a reason beyond we didn't have time to put it in for cutting the Celene plot? Maybe Bioware changed their plans because it didn't make sense anymore?

Modifié par klarabella, 26 septembre 2010 - 08:34 .

[phaonica]

TJPags wrote...

But the US annexed Texas, which was briefly an independant nation,

Texas hadn't fought for its independence against the US, either. It fought for independence against Mexico. For all that it might have been to their advantage to be annexed by the US, I doubt they were considering that being annexed by Mexico would have been to their advantage.

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...
The Orlesians would win initially, as long as their other borders are reasonably quiet anyway.  But their last occupation ended in disaster, and Celene is clever enough to learn from history.

Yes, which is why a union by marriage is a good idea. If Celene is smart (and I think we know she is) she'd give the Fereldens time to soften to her heir. I don't doubt that she'd be thinking about how she'd be remembered in history as the Empress who brought Ferelden to heel with little to no bloodshed. That's what I'd be doing if I were her.

Dynastic union does not necessarily result in political union.  Ferelden's independence lies with its laws and traditions, not with its King

Laws can be changed and traditions forgotten or tossed aside. Ferelden is the weaker nation, and much more so now that they've managed to defeat the Blight by themselves. Orlais is an empire, and empires by definition do not allow nations they're ruling over to have their independence.

He is equipped with a belt item called Borders Yet To Be, the description of which is

An optimistic--some might say fanciful--map in a belt case, with the borders of Ferelden adjusted to represent Loghain's machinations. Whether he regards it as unfinished or folly is not forthcoming.

Well, good for him. He's not content with Ferelden's borders and thinks that expanding them would make Ferelden a stronger nation. He certainly hadn't made a push to expand the borders during his time as General.

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
1) *Reading* Very interesting stuff from Monica & you.
2) Connect the dots. Add 2+2. Remember who Eamon is married to. It all points in one direction. 

It didn't occur to you there there might be a reason beyond we didn't have time to put it in for cutting the Celene plot? Maybe Bioware changed their plans because it didn't make sense anymore?

Anything is possible. From everything I have gathered, no, it's not a "doesn't make sense" anymore scenario. Esp. given the Eamon sedation plot. Had they wanted to erase the whole idea, Loghain would have attempted to kill him, not sedate him. Killing him is much easier, after all.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Having that plot would have added alot of dimension to the Warden's loyalties, especially a human noble in particular. Do you side with the anti-union faction, because you want your country to remain independant, or do you side with the pro-union side, deciding to comprimise independance because you need orlesian Wardens and troops to crush the Blight quickly. With repersussions, of course.



That would have been a really cool choice to have had, so many moral and ethical dilemas.

[nos_astra]

Persephone wrote...
Anything is possible. From everything I have gathered, no, it's not a "doesn't make sense" anymore scenario. Esp. given the Eamon sedation plot. Had they wanted to erase the whole idea, Loghain would have attempted to kill him, not sedate him. Killing him is much easier, after all.

You are aware that in the game no one ever speaks of sedating? This is metagaming knowledge. In the game it is repeatedly said that they expected Arl Eamon to die and he probably would have died if it wasn't for Connor and the desire demon. Nothing in the game hints that Eamon was supposed to lapse into a coma.

Marrying Celene is complete and utter nonsense if no child comes from this union. Without a smoot succession this alliance will last exactly up to the moment Cailan dies. It would be a lot smarter to offer a permanent alliance and marry one of her sisters or cousins to Cailan.

Modifié par klarabella, 26 septembre 2010 - 09:29 .

[Monica21]

klarabella wrote...
You are aware that in the game no one ever speaks of sedating? This is metagaming knowledge. In the game it is repeatedly said that they expected Arl Eamon to die and he probably would have died if it wasn't for Connor and the desire demon. Nothing in the game hints that Eamon was supposed to lapse into a coma.

The sedation thing would have been easier to understand if Berwick's presence was more clear. As it is, all you know is that he was sent to watch and report changes. But as it is, once the Desire Demon is killed, Eamon still doesn't die. Whatever poison Loghain used was effective in rendering him unconscious but not killing him.

Marrying Celene is complete and utter nonsense if no child comes from this union. Without a smoot succession this alliance will last exactly up to the moment Cailan dies. It would be a lot smarter to offer a permanent alliance and marry one of her sisters or cousins to Cailan.

True, which makes the alliance even more questionable. If there is no heir, the only thing Cailan has to gain from it is a title. I still haven't figured out how exactly he planned to use this alliance to help Ferelden.