486 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Greed1914 wrote...

I've always been curious about the dialogue since you're swapping someone who was with you the whole time and followed your lead for someone who was your enemy for most of the game. But I've never been able to do it since I didn't want to lose Alistair. I know I could save before and then go back, but I just never wanted to do it.

I thought it would be hard to.

Then I heard him scream "MAKE ME KING" "KILL HIM!". His behaviour at the Landsmeet was really hard to listen to.

Agreed. Since my Warden won't be pushed around or blackmailed, this usually does not end well. I have often read that sparing Loghain = betraying Alistair. I must disagree there. 

Practical reasons first:

1) Every Warden is needed now. The Blight overrides EVERYTHING. My Cousland gal would have recruited Howe himself, had she had the chance.

2) Loghain is an experienced fighter, a brilliant strategist and loved/revered by the people. Having The Hero Of River Dane on my side sure is a big plus.

Emotional reasons:

1) I firmly believe that allowing Alistair to yield to his festering revenge fantasies will only scar him in the long run. He is weak to begin with, having his way all the time will only make things worse. A story detailing my worst fears in such a scenario: www.fanfiction.net/s/6114781/1/Blood

2) If the man I love or my best friend demanded of me to kill someone and then walked away in a huff, I'd be pissed as hell. He betrays EVERYTHING Duncan fought for. Duncan himself would have recruited Loghain in that situation.

Modifié par Persephone, 13 septembre 2010 - 10:47 .

[CalJones]

I know a lot of people disagree but I find Alistair's behaviour at Landsmeet, should you decided to show mercy to Loghain, disgusting and embarrassing. After that, I find it difficult to make him king alongside Anora. (I still do, on occassion, but I'm generally more inclined to let her rule alone now).

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Greed1914 wrote...

I've always been curious about the dialogue since you're swapping someone who was with you the whole time and followed your lead for someone who was your enemy for most of the game. But I've never been able to do it since I didn't want to lose Alistair. I know I could save before and then go back, but I just never wanted to do it.

I thought it would be hard to.

Then I heard him scream "MAKE ME KING" "KILL HIM!". His behaviour at the Landsmeet was really hard to listen to.

Alistair feels a strong sense of noble idealism.  Being in power is about doing the right thing, and for him that includes justice for Loghain.  It has a personal element too, but it's not just personal.  Letting Loghain not only walk away but (as he sees it) be given a military honor is a terrible offense.

No surprise to any of the regulars, but I agree.  And it's what Loghain tries to do when the tables are turned, just as he and Maric went to a Chantry and cut the heads off the people who betrayed the Rebel Queen.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Greed1914 wrote...

I've always been curious about the dialogue since you're swapping someone who was with you the whole time and followed your lead for someone who was your enemy for most of the game. But I've never been able to do it since I didn't want to lose Alistair. I know I could save before and then go back, but I just never wanted to do it.

I thought it would be hard to.

Then I heard him scream "MAKE ME KING" "KILL HIM!". His behaviour at the Landsmeet was really hard to listen to.

Alistair feels a strong sense of noble idealism.  Being in power is about doing the right thing, and for him that includes justice for Loghain.  It has a personal element too, but it's not just personal.  Letting Loghain not only walk away but (as he sees it) be given a military honor is a terrible offense.

No surprise to any of the regulars, but I agree.  And it's what Loghain tries to do when the tables are turned, just as he and Maric went to a Chantry and cut the heads off the people who betrayed the Rebel Queen.

I see no idealism in craving someone's blood SO badly that not getting it leads to betraying everything the person he wants avenged fought for. I'm just not buying it. Being in power is about doing what's best for your country, and there are some nasty choices involved in the biz of ruling. Which is why I'll never make Alistair king again.(Unless he's hitched to Anora or Princess Cous Cous) And Loghain's as well as Maric's decisions weren't about doing the right thing but about making the most pragmatic decision.

[Zjarcal]

Wow, ten months since the game's release and this is till a hot topic... why am I not surprised? 

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

I see no idealism in craving someone's blood SO badly that not getting it leads to betraying everything the person he wants avenged fought for. I'm just not buying it. Being in power is about doing what's best for your country, and there are some nasty choices involved in the biz of ruling. Which is why I'll never make Alistair king again.(Unless he's hitched to Anora or Princess Cous Cous) And Loghain's as well as Maric's decisions weren't about doing the right thing but about making the most pragmatic decision.

Alistair walks away because he simply can't serve beside Loghain.  Like I said, I know how he feels.  I wouldn't want the man in my camp after what he's done, let alone fighting beside me where he can stick a sword in my back.

That said, Alistair is wrong to walk away completely, no argument there.  He comes to see this, too, and regrets it, according to DG.

BTW if there are nasty choices in ruling, then one of those is to execute the leaders of a rebellion that led to a civil war.  That's something that Loghain certainly doesn't hesitate to do, and Alistair only asks for Loghain's head, not Anora's- whereas Loghain wants both Wardens and Eamon.  So the two are pretty alike in this scenario, to say nothing of Anora who wants Alistair's head in some cases even when he agrees to walk away.  If you won't make Alistair king because of his actions in the Landsmeet, you can't make Anora queen either.  I guess... Sergeant Kylon for king. 



P.S. You have lost the Landsmeet vote at some point, right?  If not, you should try it.  You're missing out on the other side.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 septembre 2010 - 07:12 .

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

Greed1914 wrote...

I've always been curious about the dialogue since you're swapping someone who was with you the whole time and followed your lead for someone who was your enemy for most of the game. But I've never been able to do it since I didn't want to lose Alistair. I know I could save before and then go back, but I just never wanted to do it.

That's a reason I simply cannot understand. But that's your choice. You're missing out on a lot of interesting dialogue and very moving endings.

(husband)

I understand it.  Alistair is pretty affective with his relentless guilt tripping during the landsmeet.  It wasn't till my 3rd or 4th HN that I took the Loghain plunge.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 septembre 2010 - 07:44 .

[Persephone]

Alistair's "Then.....we'll see....." don't leave me with much hope that Anora would survive another day once the Blight has ended. Eamon (God, how I detest the man) will see to that.

[CalJones]

Sgt Kylon gets my backing!

As for Eamon, I see him as more deserving of losing his head than Alistair or the Warden, seeing as he's the one who pushes Alistair into it (and was trying to get Cailan to dump Anora in the first place).

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

Alistair's "Then.....we'll see....." don't leave me with much hope that Anora would survive another day once the Blight has ended. Eamon (God, how I detest the man) will see to that.

Well, she did refuse to swear fealty before the LM even after they had decided against her, basically asserting that she intends for the civil war to go on and inciting her supporters to follow suit.  Nevertheless rather than execute her Alistair declares her his heir, something which surprises even her.

I'm guessing that after the Blight, she'll be given another chance to swear fealty and that's where the "we'll see" comes into play.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 septembre 2010 - 03:14 .

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

1) I firmly believe that allowing Alistair to yield to his festering revenge fantasies will only scar him in the long run. He is weak to begin with, having his way all the time will only make things worse. A story detailing my worst fears in such a scenario: www.fanfiction.net/s/6114781/1/Blood

This is a good story.  His vengeful side doesn't seem to extend past Loghain, though.  He'll even joke about Anora being a friendly despot (if she turns on you).  He does say, when hardened, that he plans to thwart Anora and that she'll remind him every day of Loghain.  So I could see this story as being plausible.  I don't see it as arising from weakness, however.  When has he ever "had his way"?  It's precisely because he's grown up rough that I see him having more internal character than either Cailan or Anora.  He's more like Loghain in that, in fact.  And like his father.

[LobselVith8]

Persephone wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Greed1914 wrote...

I've always been curious about the dialogue since you're swapping someone who was with you the whole time and followed your lead for someone who was your enemy for most of the game. But I've never been able to do it since I didn't want to lose Alistair. I know I could save before and then go back, but I just never wanted to do it.

I thought it would be hard to.

Then I heard him scream "MAKE ME KING" "KILL HIM!". His behaviour at the Landsmeet was really hard to listen to.

Agreed. Since my Warden won't be pushed around or blackmailed, this usually does not end well. I have often read that sparing Loghain = betraying Alistair. I must disagree there. 

Practical reasons first:

1) Every Warden is needed now. The Blight overrides EVERYTHING. My Cousland gal would have recruited Howe himself, had she had the chance.

2) Loghain is an experienced fighter, a brilliant strategist and loved/revered by the people. Having The Hero Of River Dane on my side sure is a big plus.

Emotional reasons:

1) I firmly believe that allowing Alistair to yield to his festering revenge fantasies will only scar him in the long run. He is weak to begin with, having his way all the time will only make things worse. A story detailing my worst fears in such a scenario: www.fanfiction.net/s/6114781/1/Blood

2) If the man I love or my best friend demanded of me to kill someone and then walked away in a huff, I'd be pissed as hell. He betrays EVERYTHING Duncan fought for. Duncan himself would have recruited Loghain in that situation.

Duncan and Alistair are two different people. It's made clear by the devs that Duncan wouldn't have even stayed in Ferelden to recruit anyone and would have retreated to Orlais like Alistair does. I really find it strange that people find something wrong with Alistair wanting to avenge the dead Grey Wardens. He's human, he's not emotionless. He lost the only family that he ever knew, and he blames Loghain for it. Regardless of whether you agree with the decision or not, Alistair clearly thinks it's the wrong choice, and backed by everything else going on, thinks that his friends and family died because Loghain is making a power-grab (as Teegan also does), not because he has any interest in saving Ferelden.

I'm surprised so many people are surprised that Alistair's emotional at the Landsmeet. Alistair blames Loghain for the death of his surrogate father Duncan and his fellow Grey Wardens. A lot of people died that he personally knew. Is anyone really expecting Alistair to politely articulate why he wants Loghain to perish when he's face to face with someone he feels cost him so much? Loghain is no less emotional when he's talking about what the Orlesians did to them during the occupation at the Landsmeet, berating them angrily if they chose not to side with him.

CalJones wrote...

I know a lot of people disagree but I find Alistair's behaviour at Landsmeet, should you decided to show mercy to Loghain, disgusting and embarrassing. After that, I find it difficult to make him king alongside Anora. (I still do, on occassion, but I'm generally more inclined to let her rule alone now).

Why do you find it disgusting and embarassing? I can understand that people spare Loghain because they get to know him from the books, but Alistair doesn't get that personal perspective. Alistair doesn't get to see the cutscenes that we do as players. From Alistair's POV, Loghain allowed the Grey Wardens to die at Ostagar, helped Howe murder the Couslands, poisoned Arl Eamon, sent men to kill him, and tried to murder his own daughter to usurp the throne. Right or wrong, it's how he sees it. He makes it clear he doesn't trust Loghain, and he's looking to avenge Duncan's death, which he blames Loghain for. It's an entirely human response.

[Monica21]

Persephone wrote...
1) Every Warden is needed now. The Blight overrides EVERYTHING. My Cousland gal would have recruited Howe himself, had she had the chance.

Here we're going to disagree. I would not spare Howe, if only because I would find him useless. Loghain has experience as a general, a tactician, and a recruiter. He knows how to lead men. Howe is not a useful fighter and follows whichever way the wind is blowing. He would not only despise being a Warden, because no doubt he would think it lessened him, but he would probably try to kill me before making it to the Redcliffe. If I may shamelessly quote from fanfic: "For all his faults, Loghain was a great man. Howe was not."

[CalJones]

Well, as I've said elsewhere, the problem is that, if you happen to disagree with Alistair's view on Loghain, you have no opportunity to voice your opinion. That's a failing of game mechanics rather than anything.

Even so, his bloodthirst at Landsmeet is disturbing. Human, perhaps, but disturbing nonetheless. I tend towards mercy in most cases (the blood mage in the tower, the mercenary who attempts to kill Leliana, not to mention Sten and Zevran) so I would always be inclined not to kill Loghain, especially given his part in driving out the Orlesians. This has nothing to do with the books or anything else (in fact I hadn't read the books until I'd done quite a few playthroughs). It's more of a personal ethos.

Of course, when you refuse, Alistair's reaction is like that of a child. Again, yes, it's a human response, but yelling "kill him already!" and "I'll take the crown!" in front of the people he will be ruling...it makes me cringe.

I so wish there was a way to challenge his view earlier in the game, so that he didn't act so shocked and hurt. But the game is what it is so, unfortunately, Alistair will always stamp his feet and thrust out his lower lip and I will always cringe at his behaviour.

[Addai]

I'm wondering if people also spare Caladrius, and if not, why not?

[Zjarcal]

Monica21 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
1) Every Warden is needed now. The Blight overrides EVERYTHING. My Cousland gal would have recruited Howe himself, had she had the chance.

Here we're going to disagree. I would not spare Howe, if only because I would find him useless. Loghain has experience as a general, a tactician, and a recruiter. He knows how to lead men. Howe is not a useful fighter and follows whichever way the wind is blowing. He would not only despise being a Warden, because no doubt he would think it lessened him, but he would probably try to kill me before making it to the Redcliffe. If I may shamelessly quote from fanfic: "For all his faults, Loghain was a great man. Howe was not."

Even if Howe were useful in anyway, I never would've spared him. This is where I feel sympathy for Alistair. When things are personal, your emotions can get the best of you. While I wouldn't have walked away like Alistair did, I would've been horribly pissed if he had asked to make Howe a Warden. Hell, odds are I would've killed Howe before they got the chance to make him a Warden, consequences be damned. Not exactly rational thinking, but like I said, when things are personal, it's different.

So I do understand why Alistair would be upset with the PC and why he would leave the party if Loghain is spared and inducted into the Wardens. It's the act of leaving for good, instead of staying and helping Eamon for example, that I don't approve.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 14 septembre 2010 - 05:28 .

[Zjarcal]

@Addai:

Kylon for King?

:O:O:O

Modifié par Zjarcal, 14 septembre 2010 - 05:31 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Zjarcal wrote...

@Addai:
Kylon for King?

:O:O:O

Didnt you hear there's even a movie coming out.

The Kylon King.

[phaonica]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm wondering if people also spare Caladrius, and if not, why not?

In the briefest terms I can manage: because Caladrius will continue to be a slaver if spared, but Loghain will not continue have the power of regent if spared.

In the case of Howe, if someone had suggested he be made a Warden, my character probably would have rejected it to the best of her ability (because she does not trust him). If she was *forced* to accept Howe as a warden, she wouldn't have been happy about it at all, but she'd have kept a suspicious eye on him and done her job to the best of her ability despite him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm wondering if people also spare Caladrius, and if not, why not?

Simple. He dies because he could have very easily blackmailed Loghain for more money in exchange for pinning all this on me. It would at the very least weaken my position. Not to mention what the implications would be for letting a slaver blood mage on the loose.

If there was an option to emprison him or turn him in to the Chantry that's probably what I would have done.  Which is as good as dead anyhow.  

[Giggles_Manically]

All my PC's kill him.



The idiot admits to being in possesion of evidence against Loghain.

Lets me kill him and get the evidence as well.



Also the whole "offering to murder your family and friends" to a CE warden is just stupid.

[CalJones]

I've let Caladrius live a few times, actually...but usually I kill him. As KoP says, he's far too eager to bite the hand that feeds him to be trusted.

I let Vaughan live as well. Obviously my CE killed him during the origin, but the other origins don't know enough about him to make that judgement call. However, he is sufficiently unpleasant that he stays in his cage to face justice from the authorities. I usually take his money, too.

[LobselVith8]

CalJones wrote...

Well, as I've said elsewhere, the problem is that, if you happen to disagree with Alistair's view on Loghain, you have no opportunity to voice your opinion. That's a failing of game mechanics rather than anything.
Even so, his bloodthirst at Landsmeet is disturbing. Human, perhaps, but disturbing nonetheless. I tend towards mercy in most cases (the blood mage in the tower, the mercenary who attempts to kill Leliana, not to mention Sten and Zevran) so I would always be inclined not to kill Loghain, especially given his part in driving out the Orlesians. This has nothing to do with the books or anything else (in fact I hadn't read the books until I'd done quite a few playthroughs). It's more of a personal ethos.
Of course, when you refuse, Alistair's reaction is like that of a child. Again, yes, it's a human response, but yelling "kill him already!" and "I'll take the crown!" in front of the people he will be ruling...it makes me cringe.
I so wish there was a way to challenge his view earlier in the game, so that he didn't act so shocked and hurt. But the game is what it is so, unfortunately, Alistair will always stamp his feet and thrust out his lower lip and I will always cringe at his behaviour.

Maybe he doesn't retain his composure as he should, but it's an emotional moment for him. All of the anger and rage that has built up for over a year comes through in that moment. I think that his loyalty for over a year toward a Warden, regardless of gender, race, or magical ability, illustrates that he should be allowed one outburst. I think that the fact this quest is preceded by an encounter with Tevinter slavers - who have been sending men, women, and children for blood sacrifices and worse - probably cements Alistar's view of Loghain.

[Wulfram]

Keeping Loghain alive allows for what I'd consider the nearest to a happy ending without doing the dark ritual.

[blothulfur]

Now what would have been a real reward for keeping loghain alive is if he had spoken to the troops at the battle of denerim instead of anora, whose voice acting though fine for courtly intrigues didn't cut the mustard at a muster.