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[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

1.  He might not be smart enough to have thought it up on his own.  I grant you he doesn't seem the sharpest knife in the drawer.  But I'm not sure we have enough to declare him a total idiot.  Glory-hound, yes.  Drunk on his own titles?  Maybe.  But could he have conceived this idea on his own, or came up with it based on other suggestions?  Maybe.  Perhaps Eamon suggesting he put aside Anora got Caillan thnking about possible other brides.  His lust for titles leads him to consider other high nobles, and other rulers, which brings him to Celene.  So, it could have been his idea.  Ultimately, we don't know.

I don't deny any of this, but I don't see how it's a good idea.

2.  I'd probably agree with you, personally, especially if it meant calling a country by another name.  But the US annexed Texas, which was briefly an independant nation, also annexed quite a bit of land, making it part of the US.  Other countries have expanded that way as well, taking otherwise unclaimed land and calling it their own (and yes, I'm kind of glossing over native tribes in that statement, but I don't want that discussion).  Sometimes countries HAVE merged into a whole - see the Soviet Union, see Great Britain (not saying these are always good things, just that they happen).
A union with Orlais COULD bring Ferelden a greater economy, for instance, more skilled workers, access to other trade routes, better bargaining position with other countries, etc.  There are possible benefits.  Obviously, the question of whether those possible benefits makes it acceptable is up for debate.

Texas actually asked to be part of the union. They were too small to hold their own against Mexico and the U.S., so they chose the U.S. And I'm with you on not wanting to get into the issue of native tribes, but the land was largely unclaimed and mostly wilderness, what with the native tribes not really having a concept of land ownership and borders.

The biggest problem I see with such a union is that Ferelden and Orlais are vastly different countries. If they had the same language and similar cultures and similar ruling methods, then maybe not so bad, but as it is, Ferelden culture would ultimately be wiped out.. We saw the beginnings of this with Meghren trying to make Denerim more like Val Royeaux, not only in how he decorated the palace but in the balls he held.

3.  Well, I know you think that.  But, if Caillan approached her and made the suggestion - which you seemed to concede was possible earlier - I don't see how it can be "her plot".

I'm also not necessarily saying it's a GREAT idea on Caillan's part, both for the history between the countries, and the possible giving up of independance.  I'm just saying that it COULD be his idea, it's not ALL bad, and it may NOT be part of an Orlaisan plot.

I think it is an Orlesian plot, but a subtle one. Even if Cailan did approach her, Celene would be foolish not to see the possibility of advancing Orlesian borders and taking back Ferelden without a war. If Celene produces an heir or two, then her heirs have a legitimate claim to the Ferelden throne. Whether they can succeed in claiming the throne without war is something that would remain to be seen, but it's still there.

1)  Agreed, not a great idea, and one that I can see a lot of Fereldens being against.  But mainly because it's Orlais.  If it was with, say, Antiva, I think a lot of the objections would have been moot.

2) Agreed, pretty much in total, but again, mainly because it's Orlais we're talking about.

3) Well, I think we're arguing semantics.  Sure, if presented with the idea, the only reason Celene would go for it would be if there were an advantage to her - after all, that's how bargains work, right?  We each get something?  I don't at ALL dispute the idea that she would view it as a way to effectively conquer Ferelden without a fight, expand her borders, and hand her heir - be it a child or no - a larger empire.  I think I really just quibble with the idea of calling it her "plot", for those reasons.

[nos_astra]

Monica21 wrote...
The sedation thing would have been easier to understand if Berwick's presence was more clear. As it is, all you know is that he was sent to watch and report changes. But as it is, once the Desire Demon is killed, Eamon still doesn't die. Whatever poison Loghain used was effective in rendering him unconscious but not killing him.

Ok. Seems a valid interpretation.

Monica21 wrote...
True, which makes the alliance even more questionable. If there is no heir, the only thing Cailan has to gain from it is a title. I still haven't figured out how exactly he planned to use this alliance to help Ferelden.

What had Celene to gain from this union to begin with? Why would Eamon encourage it?

Whoever told you Celene and Eamon were incompetent and stupid?

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wow - so they never officially made peace, although the game codex says they did. Even then, that's not enough to consider the war over even after 30 years.

So then, are we still fighting World War II? Or I? Is the American Revolution still going on? England and France still at war? When exactly does a war end?

Wow. Just . . . wow.

The war is over, but that doesn't mean Orlais should be ignored. The U.S. "fought" the British for decades after the Revolution, peace treaties included. The British even tried to help the South defeat the North during our own Civil War. Seventy years of a brutal occupation doesn't exactly lead to hand-holding and singing 30 years later. Most of the nobles would like to forget the occupation, but those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Loghain was right to be cautious of the Chevaliers on the border. Celene also proves much more cunning than former rulers, in trying to secure Ferelden by marriage.

Exactly. And she won't be able to give Cailan an heir either, given that she is much older than Anora. So Eamon's awesome "Ditch the queen for a better baby machine (Celene)" idea is as callous as it is worthless in the long run.

1.  See my discussion with Monica about this issue, above.
2.  Eamon does NOT suggest Caillan marry Celene.  He suggests putting Anora aside.  There's a difference.

1) *Reading* Very interesting stuff from Monica & you.
2) Connect the dots. Add 2+2. Remember who Eamon is married to. It all points in one direction. 

There's a lot of "dot connecting" going on with no actual fact to back it up. 

Yes, Eamon is married to an Orlesian, but I've seen the discussions - and agree - where it's pointed out that SHE came to Ferelden to marry HIM.  He sure doesn't seem to be trying to make Redcliffe more Orlesian.  Hell, from the HN Origin, seems to me HIghever has closer ties to Orlais.

The fact is, a ruler needs a clear heir - in Caillan's case, that's a child, as he has no other living relatives (Alistair aside).  If Anora is not providing him with one (and while that may not be her fault, may in fact completely be HIS fault, the first look is often at the woman there) then he DOES need to find someone else. The fact that it's Eamon suggesting this - and he's just the only one we know about, not necessarily the only one to have thought this or even suggested it - and Eamon is married to an Orlesian doesn't = Eamon suggesting Caillan marry Celene.

And query - didn't Gaider discuss that at some point when he was talking about the deleted plot point?

[Monica21]

klarabella wrote...
What had Celene to gain from this union to begin with? Why would Eamon encourage it?

Celene has a very real possibility to regain Ferelden without bloodshed. And I never said Eamon encouraged it, in fact I think he didn't have any idea that Cailan planned to marry her. If he had known, I think he would have opposed it.

Whoever told you Celene and Eamon were incompetent and stupid?

Eh? Where did I claim that?

[TJPags]

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
1) *Reading* Very interesting stuff from Monica & you.
2) Connect the dots. Add 2+2. Remember who Eamon is married to. It all points in one direction. 

It didn't occur to you there there might be a reason beyond we didn't have time to put it in for cutting the Celene plot? Maybe Bioware changed their plans because it didn't make sense anymore?

Actually, IMO, things would make a LOT more sense if it were in there.  With it there, I think a lot of Loghain's actions might make a bit more sense.

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Anything is possible. From everything I have gathered, no, it's not a "doesn't make sense" anymore scenario. Esp. given the Eamon sedation plot. Had they wanted to erase the whole idea, Loghain would have attempted to kill him, not sedate him. Killing him is much easier, after all.

You are aware that in the game no one ever speaks of sedating? This is metagaming knowledge. In the game it is repeatedly said that they expected Arl Eamon to die and he probably would have died if it wasn't for Connor and the desire demon. Nothing in the game hints that Eamon was supposed to lapse into a coma.

Marrying Celene is complete and utter nonsense if no child comes from this union. Without a smoot succession this alliance will last exactly up to the moment Cailan dies. It would be a lot smarter to offer a permanent alliance and marry one of her sisters or cousins to Cailan.

I agree about the sedation/poisoning, but Gaider has said Eamon wasn't supposed to die.  While I, personally, respond with "than something in the game should have told us that!!!", to a lot of people, this is now canon.  They then view the fact that Eamon doesn't die during the search for the Ashes as proof of this.  A stretch, IMO, as I think it can also be explained by the fact that Jowan is no longer poisoning him, but there it is.

And clearly, without a child, marrying Celene makes more trouble than it's worth.  It would give Celene's heir - whoever it is - a reason to put forth a claim to the Ferelden throne later on, and possibly lead to a "they're trying to steal my birthright, let's invade" scenario.  I think there have been one or two actual wars fought in actual history over this kind of thing.

Not alone a reason to say no to the idea, but another bullet in the "no" gun, I'll grant that.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
The fact is, a ruler needs a clear heir - in Caillan's case, that's a child, as he has no other living relatives (Alistair aside).  If Anora is not providing him with one (and while that may not be her fault, may in fact completely be HIS fault, the first look is often at the woman there) then he DOES need to find someone else. The fact that it's Eamon suggesting this - and he's just the only one we know about, not necessarily the only one to have thought this or even suggested it - and Eamon is married to an Orlesian doesn't = Eamon suggesting Caillan marry Celene.

I agree. Eamon's suggestion to "put Anora aside" and the fact that he has an Orlesian wife doesn't mean he's going to be gung ho about his king marrying the Empress.

And query - didn't Gaider discuss that at some point when he was talking about the deleted plot point?

Yes. And all they had time to do in RtO was hint at it.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

And query - didn't Gaider discuss that at some point when he was talking about the deleted plot point?

Yes. And all they had time to do in RtO was hint at it.

I seem to remember that he specifically addressed the Eamon suggesting Caillan marry Celene idea, and said Eamon had not suggested it.

I may be wrong.  I may be remembering thread discussion about it.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...
I seem to remember that he specifically addressed the Eamon suggesting Caillan marry Celene idea, and said Eamon had not suggested it.

I may be wrong.  I may be remembering thread discussion about it.

Is this from his PAX interview? The only thing he said there was that Cailan did plan to divorce Anora and marry Celene, and that Celene was supposed to be in Denerim during the Blight. He didn't address Eamon's letter, and I don't think he's addressed it on the forums. The only thing I remember reading here is speculation that it was  Eamon's idea, but Gaider never said anything like that.

Modifié par Monica21, 26 septembre 2010 - 10:09 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

If I wasn't sick, I'd gladly join the billionth round of this debate, but my head hearts too much.

What I wanted to address however is what would Celene want from Ferelden. While I agree Ferelden is not worth a second invasion, to subjugate or vassalise Ferelden would greatly benefit Orlais for 2 reasons (that I can think of in my current condition):

A- secure their southern borders and ensure that nothing can deter them from going to war with their number one regional enemy, Nevarra. Having an enemy like Nevarra, while also having a potential enemy in the south that could potentially ally with Nevarra would make Orlais effectively contained. So it's Orlais' natural interest to secure Ferelden as an "ally" (and history has shown that weaker nations allied to a stronger one generally become vassals eventually).

B- Strengthen their hold over the Waking sea and this is directly related to the above. Nevarra is landlocked, with the exception of waking sea trade. Orlais and its "ally" Ferelden combined would be able to secure a much larger influence on the waking sea traffic (apparently currently dominated by the Free Marches city states). Indeed, the city of Amaranthine was built by Orlesians, and I think that's the reason. To compete with the Free Marches and Nevarra.

All things considered, it's Orlais' interests to secure an "alliance" with Ferelden, with the scales naturally tipping in favor of Orlais, based on the current distribution of power. Is it worth a direct ivnasion? Probably not and it does not fit Celene as a person anyways. She seems to be the kind that lieks to play the game from behind the scenes.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 septembre 2010 - 10:15 .

[nos_astra]

Monica21 wrote...

klarabella wrote...
What had Celene to gain from this union to begin with? Why would Eamon encourage it?

Celene has a very real possibility to regain Ferelden without bloodshed. And I never said Eamon encouraged it, in fact I think he didn't have any idea that Cailan planned to marry her. If he had known, I think he would have opposed it.

How would Celene regain Ferelden? She would simply marry Cailan and you can bet Eamon and others would be around to enforce a wedding contract.

Now Celene weds Cailan ... and then what? The only thing she actually gains is a husband who is malleable but there is still a Landsmeet that won't stand idly by. And without an heir to both of the countries all Celene gains is a stupid reason to go to war. If she wants to unite both countries she needs an heir for smooth succession, someone who can inherit both thrones. Without that she could as well just invade.

Monica21 wrote...

Whoever told you Celene and Eamon were incompetent and stupid?

Eh? Where did I claim that?

You didn't, it's just a feeling that everyone other than Loghain is stupid just because they are opposing him.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I seem to remember that he specifically addressed the Eamon suggesting Caillan marry Celene idea, and said Eamon had not suggested it.

I may be wrong.  I may be remembering thread discussion about it.

Is this from his PAX interview? The only thing he said there was that Cailan did plan to divorce Anora and marry Celene, and that Celene was supposed to be in Denerim during the Blight. He didn't address Eamon's letter, and I don't think he's addressed it on the forums. The only thing I remember reading here is speculation that it was  Eamon's idea, but Gaider never said anything like that.

Ahh, thank you.  I did mean the most recent PAX interview.

[Monica21]

klarabella wrote...
How would Celene regain Ferelden? She would simply marry Cailan and you can bet Eamon and others would be around to enforce a wedding contract.

Now Celene weds Cailan ... and then what? The only thing she actually gains is a husband who is malleable but there is still a Landsmeet that won't stand idly by. And without an heir to both of the countries all Celene gains is a stupid reason to go to war. If she wants to unite both countries she needs an heir for smooth succession, someone who can inherit both thrones. Without that she could as well just invade.

And Ferelden is still the less powerful of the two countries. Treaties are broken all the time, and wedding contracts can be too. If Celene doesn't produce an heir, then there's always the possiblity of her softening the nobility with time and promises. As flexible as the nobility was during the occupation, I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks the nobles will stand firm against Celene.

You didn't, it's just a feeling that everyone other than Loghain is stupid just because they are opposing him.

I don't think anyone's stupid, I just think there are differences in opinion.