The crimes I usually put forward are poisoning Eamon, as this incites the Chantry which apparently is a powerful force, and that of torturing Nobles. Slavery is included now and again, but it does not take a political genius to guess that Human Nobles might not care about their own second class citizens. I tend to use this charge only when I believe I have a lock on the vote.
Sometimes I have lost the Landsmeet just so Loghain will start a conflict with his two votes. That allows me to toss Blizzard, Inferno, or other large area spells to vent my frustrations at politics. My first few times playing I was not willing to take the Trial of Crows, so this became a good place for me to gather some extra XP, then I get to beat him one-on-one.
Spare Loghain or not?
Débuté par
Role101
, sept. 10 2010 04:29
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#152
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 04:42
KnightofPhoenix
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Addai67 wrote...
With movements like Postmodernity, multiculturalism, moral judgemennts are back in. At least they are in the US and Europe if you are talking about things like how blacks were enslaved, Sexism, the treatment of Native Americans etc.
I am pretty sure if I hand out a research paper on slavery with nothing but my moral judgement, it would not be considered a good paper.
People can obviously judge those events however they like. However, such judgements, essays or books would not be considered academic. And certainly not what I would consider reading. If I want to read moral judgements, I'd rather make my own based on facts.
I am pretty sure we can't even reference those kinds of books or articles for research purposes, except perhaps talking about how people view an event.
Now this is not really relevent here, as obviously we are not going to write academic books and articles about Loghain (sadly). This was more to deal with the tangent about history. In my years of study, not once have I come accorss the word "evil" from a serious historian / scholar.
#153
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 04:45
Wulfram
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If you open up by saying "I'm not the one who betrayed Ferelden" and pass the persuade check, then Bryland will say that "some of us are curious what precisely occurred at ostagar" and you get +1, so Ostagar can be used against him.
Anyway, if the fight with Loghain is seen as trial by battle, then your victory establishes the truth of your accusations and thus his guilt.
Anyway, if the fight with Loghain is seen as trial by battle, then your victory establishes the truth of your accusations and thus his guilt.
#154
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 05:33
Elhanan
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Wulfram wrote...
If you open up by saying "I'm not the one who betrayed Ferelden" and pass the persuade check, then Bryland will say that "some of us are curious what precisely occurred at ostagar" and you get +1, so Ostagar can be used against him.
Anyway, if the fight with Loghain is seen as trial by battle, then your victory establishes the truth of your accusations and thus his guilt.
That was an interesting replay; thanks for the tip! Too bad I did not have notes on how that PC was going to procede, or I might have kept that Auto-save.
#155
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:12
Lady Honor
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CalJones wrote...
It's funny you consider yourself a softy. I consider myself a softy and I can't kill Loghain, especially not in front of his daughter, who gets splattered with his blood. To me, that was far worse than making Alistair angry. (And to be fair, the way he acts subsequently is his own choice).
I think everyone should try the Redeemer ending at least once - Loghain's plea at the end is one of the most moving bits of dialogue in the game. If you're worried about what happens to Alistair, he can still become king if he's hardened and marries Anora.
I consider myself a softy in the fact that Alistair acts as if I am betraying him by allowing Loghain to live. Also, there is the fact that even tho Duncan wasn't Alistair's father, he still felt of him as such. So, Loghain not only killed his half brother, but his "adoptive" father as well when he quit the field. Plus, I don't want to marry him off to Anora. She is weak. She couldn't keep her father from taking over the throne after murdering her husband. Alistair lost a father. So did Anora. Besides, she's quick enough to cut a deal with you to give you her support at the landsmeet if you support her as queen and does so even tho she can't be stupid enough to think he's going to come out of this without her support smelling like a rose.
#156
Guest_MariSkep_*
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:26
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Persephone wrote...
Like I said. History and historians do not work that way. Every historian worth his/her salt knows this.
That's not really answering my question.
How's this, why should the values of cultures past and present not be open to critiscm?
#157
Guest_MariSkep_*
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:28
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Monica21 wrote...
There's a difference between calling out failings and execution. A pretty big one. I certainly wouldn't be willing to execute America's founders because they decided to keep slavery legal, or Abraham Lincoln because he only freed the slaves in the border states.MariSkep wrote...
Persephone wrote...
Then you must condemn some of the greatest men and women in history who are revered to this day. Alexander the Great, Caesar, medieval kings and queens.... American presidents.
Why not? I can respect and recognize someone's accomplishments and still call them out on all their failings.
Was Loghain wrong? Yes. Does it deserve execution? No.
Then what crimes would?
#158
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:32
Monica21
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What crimes would I be willing to kill Loghain for? Easy. If he'd walked up to Cailan and plunged the knife in himself. He didn't though.MariSkep wrote...
Then what crimes would?
#159
Guest_MariSkep_*
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:35
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Monica21 wrote...
What crimes would I be willing to kill Loghain for? Easy. If he'd walked up to Cailan and plunged the knife in himself. He didn't though.MariSkep wrote...
Then what crimes would?
Hmm so if he'd taken direct actions instead of acting through a third party is what you're saying?
I think that's where we disagree.
#160
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:35
phaonica
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Monica21 wrote...
What crimes would I be willing to kill Loghain for? Easy. If he'd walked up to Cailan and plunged the knife in himself. He didn't though.MariSkep wrote...
Then what crimes would?
Really? I'm not sure I'd do it even then. I'd still ask why.
#161
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:37
KnightofPhoenix
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phaonica wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
What crimes would I be willing to kill Loghain for? Easy. If he'd walked up to Cailan and plunged the knife in himself. He didn't though.MariSkep wrote...
Then what crimes would?
Really? I'm not sure I'd do it even then. I'd still ask why.
Same.
If I investigate and see that Loghain was right in killing that idiot, I wouldn't kill him.
#162
Guest_MariSkep_*
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:40
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
phaonica wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
What crimes would I be willing to kill Loghain for? Easy. If he'd walked up to Cailan and plunged the knife in himself. He didn't though.MariSkep wrote...
Then what crimes would?
Really? I'm not sure I'd do it even then. I'd still ask why.
Same.
If I investigate and see that Loghain was right in killing that idiot, I wouldn't kill him.
But did he have to? Was his life in jeopardy, was he under some serious duress, could he have found a way to solve the situation without abandoning so many to die? And that's just Ostagar and not all the other crimes he's guilty of.
#163
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:42
Monica21
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Telling Cailan that he shouldn't fight on the front lines is actively trying to prevent his death, at least in my book. Especially considering Loghain knew this was a battle he might have to walk away from.MariSkep wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
What crimes would I be willing to kill Loghain for? Easy. If he'd walked up to Cailan and plunged the knife in himself. He didn't though.MariSkep wrote...
Then what crimes would?
Hmm so if he'd taken direct actions instead of acting through a third party is what you're saying?
I think that's where we disagree.
And yes, we are going to disagree. I don't think Loghain "acted through" anyone. What happened was what happened. The events were not initiated by him.
#164
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:44
KnightofPhoenix
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MariSkep wrote...
But did he have to? Was his life in jeopardy, was he under some serious duress, could he have found a way to solve the situation without abandoning so many to die? And that's just Ostagar and not all the other crimes he's guilty of.
Ostagar was not about Cailan. It was a military decision, which I agree with fully. Moot point, this is not what Monica was talking about.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 septembre 2010 - 06:44 .
#165
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:45
Monica21
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I'm not sure if I can justify a good "why." If he did just kill him outright, then it's pretty hard to argue against regicide, isn't it? Not to mention that being a vigilante isn't what I would consider a good quality.phaonica wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
What crimes would I be willing to kill Loghain for? Easy. If he'd walked up to Cailan and plunged the knife in himself. He didn't though.MariSkep wrote...
Then what crimes would?
Really? I'm not sure I'd do it even then. I'd still ask why.
#166
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:49
Giggles_Manically
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Monica21 wrote...
I'm not sure if I can justify a good "why." If he did just kill him outright, then it's pretty hard to argue against regicide, isn't it? Not to mention that being a vigilante isn't what I would consider a good quality.phaonica wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
What crimes would I be willing to kill Loghain for? Easy. If he'd walked up to Cailan and plunged the knife in himself. He didn't though.MariSkep wrote...
Then what crimes would?
Really? I'm not sure I'd do it even then. I'd still ask why.
#167
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:52
Monica21
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Okay, okay. Unless you're Batman.
#168
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:55
phaonica
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Monica21 wrote...
I'm not sure if I can justify a good "why." If he did just kill him outright, then it's pretty hard to argue against regicide, isn't it? Not to mention that being a vigilante isn't what I would consider a good quality.phaonica wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
What crimes would I be willing to kill Loghain for? Easy. If he'd walked up to Cailan and plunged the knife in himself. He didn't though.MariSkep wrote...
Then what crimes would?
Really? I'm not sure I'd do it even then. I'd still ask why.
Still depends on the Why for me. Forced or not, I did kill Howe outright. Does the Why matter?
#170
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:58
Monica21
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Well, Howe was trying to kill you, so you at least have self-defense in your favor. The Why matters to me. Very much.phaonica wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
I'm not sure if I can justify a good "why." If he did just kill him outright, then it's pretty hard to argue against regicide, isn't it? Not to mention that being a vigilante isn't what I would consider a good quality.phaonica wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
What crimes would I be willing to kill Loghain for? Easy. If he'd walked up to Cailan and plunged the knife in himself. He didn't though.MariSkep wrote...
Then what crimes would?
Really? I'm not sure I'd do it even then. I'd still ask why.
Still depends on the Why for me. Forced or not, I did kill Howe outright. Does the Why matter?
#171
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 06:59
KnightofPhoenix
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CalJones wrote...
Or Garrus.
The only one capable of being compared to Batman.
#172
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 07:00
FastEddieLB
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Completely ignoring the rest of the thread to answer the OP:
Advantage: You get to have that obnoxious crybaby Alistair executed! =D (That was the highlight of my first playthrough)
Disadvantage: None, really... unless you actually want that sissy to be king.
Advantage: You get to have that obnoxious crybaby Alistair executed! =D (That was the highlight of my first playthrough)
Disadvantage: None, really... unless you actually want that sissy to be king.
#173
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 07:00
Giggles_Manically
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Garrus should have his own movie in the style of the Dark Knight for the Mass Effect movie.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
CalJones wrote...
Or Garrus.
The only one capable of being compared to Batman.
#174
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 07:02
KnightofPhoenix
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Giggles_Manically wrote...
Garrus should have his own movie in the style of the Dark Knight for the Mass Effect movie.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
CalJones wrote...
Or Garrus.
The only one capable of being compared to Batman.
Why not? He already has a badass theme (especially at 1:00).
#175
Guest_MariSkep_*
Posté 23 septembre 2010 - 07:22
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
MariSkep wrote...
But did he have to? Was his life in jeopardy, was he under some serious duress, could he have found a way to solve the situation without abandoning so many to die? And that's just Ostagar and not all the other crimes he's guilty of.
Ostagar was not about Cailan. It was a military decision, which I agree with fully. Moot point, this is not what Monica was talking about.
If it really came down to him having to pull because it was a lost cause, I'd have no problem with the decision. But he stood to profit from it(and did) and his actions were more then a little suspicious. It was more of a coup then a general trying to save what few resources he had left. And that's one of the biggest reasons I never had a problem executing Loghain. Everything that happens after Ostagar.
