486 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

MariSkep wrote...
If it really came down to him having to pull because it was a lost cause, I'd have no problem with the decision. But he stood to profit from it(and did) and his actions were more then a little suspicious. It was more of a coup then a general trying to save what few resources he had left. And that's one of the biggest reasons I never had a problem executing Loghain. Everything that happens after Ostagar.

We are going to argue this forever. Suffice to say I see Ostagar in a completely different light. Both perspectives are valid. And let's leave it at that.

[Sabariel]

Persephone wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Recruited him once. Never again. The man sold elven children into slavery. Unforgivable in my book

Then you must condemn some of the greatest men and women in history who are revered to this day. Alexander the Great, Caesar, medieval kings and queens.... American presidents.

Yeup. No problem there

Never become a historian. Looking at Ancient/Medieval times & people through modern eyes just doesn't cut it.

I was kidding

But in all seriousness, Loghain did too many horrible things for all the wrong reasons and in the name of paranoia for me to ever stomach sparing him (again).

Edit: Though perhaps if I could force him to become an Orlesian mime, chain him to the street, and have the children he sold into slavery pelt him with rotten tomatoes maybe then... I would spare him (again). Maybe.

You have a way more sadistic mind than Loghain himself.

I've no doubt of that as I've never found Loghain to possess a sadistic mind.

[testing123]

FastEddieLB wrote...

Completely ignoring the rest of the thread to answer the OP:

Advantage: You get to have that obnoxious crybaby Alistair executed! =D (That was the highlight of my first playthrough)

Disadvantage: None, really... unless you actually want that sissy to be king.

If you spare Loghain, one of the first conversations you have with him you can say, 'You cost me Alistair you know.'  And his response is, 'And you can thank me for that later.'  

Persephone wrote...The Warden administers such justice and MERCY a few times? Really? If this is MERCY, I'd hate to see.....well......GOD, I simply cannot understand such a butchery.

I dug this quote up because I like a challenge.  I believe you are asking how death can be considered a mercy for Loghain?  Very well, I accept!  Let's see...

Consider that Loghain has sacrificed his entire life in devotion to protecting Ferelden.  He has put his duty before even his own humanity.  The life he has lived has never been his own.  Now consider that his actions in the game actually serve to condemn the very country he was sworn to protect.  Every decision he makes sows more dissent and destruction.  But it is his duty to protect Ferelden, he cannot falter, he cannot stop!  So he pushes ever onward with his doomed course of action because only he can save his country!

Finally, at the Landsmeet, he meets his match.  He realizes that Ferelden has a savior (with the strength of Maric) in the Warden.  Finally, there is someone else who can carry the burden that he has shouldered for so long.  I personally could not help but reflect on my own life after yielding to the authority of my opponent; they may choose to kill me after all.  I imagine that Loghain is realizing that he has never really lived his own life.  Duty has dictated every decision he has ever made.  He was forced to abandon any hopes of love or any sort of selfish indulgence.  He favored rationality over humanity, and after all of that someone else came along to succeed where he failed.  I couldn't help but wonder if it was all a waste.  He must be completely spent at this point.  Rest would be welcome.  I'm willing to grant him that rest.  And should someone come to challenge me for my actions, I can only hope they are half as admirable a man as Loghain himself.

[Elhanan]

I also do not see Loghain as a sadist; just one that continues to justify his crimes as doing what is best for his country. His failure is viewing such decisions objectively, hiring fools and vermin as advisors, and perhaps doing things that he knows is unwise for the sake of simplicity (eg; hiring Crow assassins). He appeared to regret that choice as it was being made, but he did it anyway.

Plus he suffers from a mediocre S&S build with not a respec book in sight.....

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
 He must be completely spent at this point.  Rest would be welcome.  I'm willing to grant him that rest. 

While your post was pertinent (eloquently so) and while yes I do believe that Loghain would welcome rest, it's also evident in my mind that he'd rather see this war come to an end personally and try to fix his mistake. When you ask him "what do you want?" at camp, you can see how he is pationately adamant about seeing an end to this war (once again, great VO).

He is a man who never shirked from his duty towards Ferelden. If he was given a choice between the rest and peace of the grave, or serve Ferelden one more time under the leadership of someone who can save it, I think he'd pick the latter and once again put all his soul (literally in the US) into fighting for Ferelden.

So imo, sparing him is the more merciful option in the sense of allowing Loghain to do what he wants to do the most. Help save his country. But he isn't expecting you to do so, hence why he also accepts death, knowing that someone else has taken the burden.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 septembre 2010 - 02:50 .

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
While your post was pertinent (eloquently so) and while yes I do believe that Loghain would welcome rest, it's also evident in my mind that he'd rather see this war come to an end personally and try to fix his mistake. When you ask him "what do you want?" at camp, you can see how he is pationately adamant about seeing an end to this war (once again, great VO).

He is a man who never shirked from his duty towards Ferelden. If he was given a choice between the rest and peace of the grave, or serve Ferelden one more time under the leadership of someone who can save it, I think he'd pick the latter and once again put all his soul (literally in the US) into fighting for Ferelden.

So imo, sparing him is the more merciful option in the sense of allowing Loghain to do what he wants to do the most. Help save his country. But he isn't expecting you to do so, hence why he also accepts death, knowing that someone else has taken the burden.

I agree.  Still, I gave it my best effort. =P

I actually kind of expected to ****** off the Loghain haters and the Loghain lovers simultaneously with that post but I couldn't pass up a chance to make a seemingly impossible argument. 

[Raiil]

I don't personally hate Loghain, but I've never really been able to spare him. It was honestly his treatment of the elves that did him in. He wasn't actively trying to kill Eamon (and anything that puts Eamon down is good in my book, to be frank), Cailan is/was generally a dolt, I can't fault him for his feelings towards the Orlesians, and, well, I highly doubt he knew that Uldred was the sort of dick he turned out to be. Granted, Loghain has some serious ally issues (Howe? Really? Seriously now) but there really is, in mine and my mage's mind, absolutely no reason to do what he did to the elves. He, who had been amoung the persecuted and hunted, should have known better.



I suppose it's not about mercy- it's about expediency. If it had been an option, I would have carted Loghain off to jail and not killed him. But the game doesn't allow you, and at the verge of war, death was the choice that seemed more reasonable.

[Siduri]

Persephone wrote...

Never become a historian. Looking at Ancient/Medieval times & people through modern eyes just doesn't cut it.

This isn't history. When the Landsmeet reacts with horror to hear that Loghain has sold the elves into slavery, they're judging him by *Ferelden* values -- which appear to be very similar to modern first-world values. There's no reason to handwave the slavery crime with an appeal to Roman values: those simply don't apply here in any way. Loghain did commit a crime--a very serious and reprehensible crime--when he sold his own citizens into slavery.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Siduri wrote...
This isn't history. When the Landsmeet reacts with horror to hear that Loghain has sold the elves into slavery, they're judging him by *Ferelden* values -- which appear to be very similar to modern first-world values. There's no reason to handwave the slavery crime with an appeal to Roman values: those simply don't apply here in any way. Loghain did commit a crime--a very serious and reprehensible crime--when he sold his own citizens into slavery.

Loghain can still win at the landsmeet even if they found out about it. It's technically a crime, but they don't react with "horror" as you imply. It's a rather minor thing, if isolated.

[phaonica]

Siduri wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Never become a historian. Looking at Ancient/Medieval times & people through modern eyes just doesn't cut it.

This isn't history. When the Landsmeet reacts with horror to hear that Loghain has sold the elves into slavery, they're judging him by *Ferelden* values -- which appear to be very similar to modern first-world values. There's no reason to handwave the slavery crime with an appeal to Roman values: those simply don't apply here in any way. Loghain did commit a crime--a very serious and reprehensible crime--when he sold his own citizens into slavery.

The Landsmeet reacts negatively, yes, but they don't call for his immediate execution over it.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Loghain can still win at the landsmeet even if they found out about it. It's technically a crime, but they don't react with "horror" as you imply. It's a rather minor thing, if isolated.

Yeah, "horror" might not be the best way to describe the Landsmeet's reaction. I admit, the slavery issue is the one thing I really can't condone about Loghain (and I do find it horrifying), but the Landsmeet itself, while disturbed by the issue, isn't horrified.

[Siduri]

Zjarcal wrote...

Yeah, "horror" might not be the best way to describe the Landsmeet's reaction. I admit, the slavery issue is the one thing I really can't condone about Loghain (and I do find it horrifying), but the Landsmeet itself, while disturbed by the issue, isn't horrified.

The reaction I got was really strong -- gasps, shouting, etc. I did bring it up first so I gather that makes a difference?

[Zjarcal]

Siduri wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Yeah, "horror" might not be the best way to describe the Landsmeet's reaction. I admit, the slavery issue is the one thing I really can't condone about Loghain (and I do find it horrifying), but the Landsmeet itself, while disturbed by the issue, isn't horrified.

The reaction I got was really strong -- gasps, shouting, etc. I did bring it up first so I gather that makes a difference?

I've seen both reactions and yes, they are shocked. They just don't consider it a big enough deal to instantly demand his execution, which makes it seem that in the big scheme of things, the slavery issue was one they were willing to ignore.

[phaonica]

Siduri wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Yeah, "horror" might not be the best way to describe the Landsmeet's reaction. I admit, the slavery issue is the one thing I really can't condone about Loghain (and I do find it horrifying), but the Landsmeet itself, while disturbed by the issue, isn't horrified.

The reaction I got was really strong -- gasps, shouting, etc. I did bring it up first so I gather that makes a difference?

Sometimes actions speak louder than words. They might have sounded "horrified", but they don't demand his execution (ie it doesn't "seal his fate" with them like it does with many players/characters).

Modifié par phaonica, 24 septembre 2010 - 03:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

They sound shocked when you first mention it because you say (I believe) that Loghain is selling citizens without specifying that they are elves. But if you say it second and specify that he is selling elves, the reaction is much less shocked.

[Siduri]

Zjarcal wrote...

I've seen both reactions and yes, they are shocked. They just don't consider it a big enough deal to instantly demand his execution

You can be horrified by something without instantly demanding an execution. You can also be horrified by something and still consider other factors, especially if you have a tremendously important decision to make.

I actually really like the character of Loghain -- I like that he's a complex character acting for what he sees as the greater good -- but the "Oh, slavery wasn't really a big deal back then" defense just doesn't wash in this case. It *is* a big deal in Ferelden.

[Zjarcal]

Siduri wrote...
...but the "Oh, slavery wasn't really a big deal back then" defense just doesn't wash in this case. It *is* a big deal in Ferelden.

Slavery of humans, yes. Slavery of elves? Not so much.

And let me make it clear that I do find it to be horrifying. But Ferelden itself, not so much.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 24 septembre 2010 - 03:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Siduri wrote...
 but the "Oh, slavery wasn't really a big deal back then" defense just doesn't wash in this case. It *is* a big deal in Ferelden.

Not enough. Like I said, Loghain can still win the vote of the landsmeet regardless. So they don't really feel strongly about this principle in the larger scheme of things.

[Siduri]

Zjarcal wrote...

Slavery of humans, yes. Slavery of elves? Not so much.

The irony there is that I don't think Loghain himself is a racist, is he? He's willing to sacrifice the elves not because they are elves, but because the Alienage is such poor shape after the riots that he doesn't think it can be successfully defended from a military standpoint.

And the Landsmeet is indeed racist, but for the players who support Loghain, does it really make it better that he's selling elves and not humans?

[phaonica]

MariSkep wrote...

phaonica wrote...

The Landsmeet reacts negatively, yes, but they don't call for his immediate execution over it.

They don't really call for anything over it.

No, they really don't make any demands. The Landsmeet was pretty awesome the first time I played it, but the more I play it, the more problems I have with it. Oh well.

 It was one of those moments (one of many) in the game where I found myself wondering why I was supposed to save these people. 

I've wondered that on occasion, too, for various reasons.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Siduri wrote...
The irony there is that I don't think Loghain himself is a racist, is he? He's willing to sacrifice the elves not because they are elves, but because the Alienage is such poor shape after the riots that he doesn't think it can be successfully defended from a military standpoint.

No, you're right he is not racist. He was the head of the Night Elves during the war with Orlais afterall.

Siduri wrote...
And the Landsmeet is indeed racist, but for the players who support Loghain, does it really make it better that he's selling elves and not humans?

No, but it makes it smarter for the reasons you stated above. And because the landsmeet wouldn't care as much.

[Zjarcal]

Siduri wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Slavery of humans, yes. Slavery of elves? Not so much.

The irony there is that I don't think Loghain himself is a racist, is he? He's willing to sacrifice the elves not because they are elves, but because the Alienage is such poor shape after the riots that he doesn't think it can be successfully defended from a military standpoint.

And the Landsmeet is indeed racist, but for the players who support Loghain, does it really make it better that he's selling elves and not humans?

I think I made it clear in my previous posts that I do find the slavery issue a horrifying thing. It's the only crime against Loghain that I am not willing to defend in any way. For my CE and Dalish playthroughs, it's the main reason why they execute him.

That being said, what you said about Loghain not being a racist and doing it because he thought the Alienage was a lost cause, is the one reason why I'm willing to forgive the crime. Not defend it, but forgive it. And only with my HNF, who is hellbent on giving the man a chance to redeem himself.

[testing123]

Zjarcal wrote...
And let me make it clear that I do find it to be horrifying. But Ferelden itself, not so much.

I don't think I entirely agree with you.  Circumstances influence how much they are willing to forgive.  They can't exactly condemn Loghain until they feel secure with Eamon and his allies.  It's about self preservation.  They don't care who did what, just who is going to give them the best chance to survive the Blight.

There was a time when Orlais held Ferelden and 'sold their elves like property.'  This was considered abhorrent.  Funny how things change when your life is on the line.  

If you are arguing that they don't consider it that big a deal in the moment I agree, but if you are arguing that they don't care much about slavery as a principle, I completely disagree.