486 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

Storm of the Century within certain political halls (and in the confines of a game) can be extremely satisfying....

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
If you are arguing that they don't consider it that big a deal in the moment I agree, but if you are arguing that they don't care much about slavery as a principle, I completely disagree.

I thought how much you care about principles and ideals is put to the test precisely when the **** hits the fan.

I doubt Loghain would have continued the slave trade after the war though, had he won. 

[Zjarcal]

jvee wrote...
If you are arguing that they don't consider it that big a deal in the moment I agree, but if you are arguing that they don't care much about slavery as a principle, I completely disagree.

I'd say Yes and No.

Yes, they do consider slavery as a principle to be a horrible thing. But when it comes to elves, I can't see them as willing to fight against it as they would be if it were humans who were enslaved.

Elves are treated as second class citizens across all of Ferelden, nobody cares about improving their lifestyle. So while they wouldn't approve of the slavery of elves, I can't see them putting up much of a fight against it, even if it weren't war time.

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I thought how much you care about principles and ideals is put to the test precisely when the **** hits the fan.

What an idealistic thing to say =P

While I'm hesitant to treat the entire Landsmeet as one hive-minded entity, I think their actions bear out that self preservation is at a premium.  Can't hold principles if you are dead, after all.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I doubt Loghain would have continued the slave trade after the war though, had he won. 

I agree.

Cauthrien says something that suggests this to be true if you meet her at the Landsmeet Chamber (sparing her at Howe's estate).  She says how Loghain was forced to look for funds elsewhere due to the war, suggesting that it wasn't an easy decision for Loghain.

I still wouldn't have done it as I'm fervently against slavery of any kind, but I do agree with KoP that he wouldn't have continued the slave trade after the war.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I thought how much you care about principles and ideals is put to the test precisely when the **** hits the fan.

What an idealistic thing to say =P

While I'm hesitant to treat the entire Landsmeet as one hive-minded entity, I think their actions bear out that self preservation is at a premium.  Can't hold principles if you are dead, after all.

I know it's an idealist thing to say and it's something I don't espouse in the slightest btw.

The landsmeet thinks that self-preservation is more important than this. Loghain also thinks that the preservation of Ferelden is more important. They are in the same boat.

[testing123]

Zjarcal wrote...
I'd say Yes and No.

Yes, they do consider slavery as a principle to be a horrible thing. But when it comes to elves, I can't see them as willing to fight against it as they would be if it were humans who were enslaved.

Elves are treated as second class citizens across all of Ferelden, nobody cares about improving their lifestyle. So while they wouldn't approve of the slavery of elves, I can't see them putting up much of a fight against it, even if it weren't war time.

I agree, elves are second class citizens and their mistreatment is less important (to them) than humans.  But,  I would argue that even if humans had been enslaved for some reason, the Landsmeet wouldn't call for Loghain's head because their primary objective is survival.  Sort out the punishments later.  Loghain used a blood mage to poison an arl, usurping the authority of the Chantry itself.  Does that cause them to rage for execution?  No.

Arguing over how wrong the Landsmeet considers Loghain's actions seems kind of pointless to me.  They only care that they have someone, anyone, who can lead them out of the mess they are in.  Their principles and ethics can return when it is a little more convenient.  No matter what you say, the Landsmeet follows whoever wins the duel.  Whoever proves they are the strongest.  

Like I said, when it was Orlais selling their elves, the practice was considered unjustifiable.  I don't think that many would support it in a time of peace when it can't be written off as necessary.  

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I know it's an idealist thing to say and it's something I don't espouse in the slightest btw.

I recognized that.  That's why I found it so amusing.

[Zjarcal]

jvee wrote...

I agree, elves are second class citizens and their mistreatment is less important (to them) than humans.  But,  I would argue that even if humans had been enslaved for some reason, the Landsmeet wouldn't call for Loghain's head because their primary objective is survival.  Sort out the punishments later.  Loghain used a blood mage to poison an arl, usurping the authority of the Chantry itself.  Does that cause them to rage for execution?  No.

Actually, I'm with you. Even if humans were the ones being enslaved, they wouldn't have immediately called for his execution. I do believe however, that if the slavery issue were to be the deciding factor, elven slavery would carry much less weight than human slavery, possibly leading to a scenario where Loghain would be executed for human slavery, but not for elven slavery.

Arguing over how wrong the Landsmeet considers Loghain's actions seems kind of pointless to me.  

I honestly couldn't agree more to tell you the truth.

They only care that they have someone, anyone, who can lead them out of the mess they are in.  Their principles and ethics can return when it is a little more convenient.  No matter what you say, the Landsmeet follows whoever wins the duel.  Whoever proves they are the strongest.  

Indeed. At the end of the day, the duel is what settles everything.

I've always wondered, if tradition says that a duel settles a dispute and considering that neither party (Loghain or Eamon and the Warden) is willing to accept the other as the winner (a mentality they both seem to carry right from the start), why not simply jump to the duel and skip all the pointless rambling?

Would've saved a lot of saliva for everyone.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
Arguing over how wrong the Landsmeet considers Loghain's actions seems kind of pointless to me. 

It's generally the response to claims that what Loghain is doing is so much against Ferelden law and customs that it's absolutely horrific for them. Which is not really the case, in the larger scheme of things. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:45 .

[phaonica]

Arguing over how wrong the Landsmeet considers Loghain's actions seems kind of pointless to me.  

I think the point was to support a context. How the Landsmeet reacts to Loghain's crimes might reflect the mindset of the people living in that "day and age". 

Modifié par phaonica, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:52 .

[JimmYSkeeZ]

don't do it! Alistar gets angwy...

[JimmYSkeeZ]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jvee wrote...
Arguing over how wrong the Landsmeet considers Loghain's actions seems kind of pointless to me. 

It's generally the response to claims that what Loghain is doing is so much against Ferelden law and customs that it's absolutely horrific for them. Which is not really the case, in the larger scheme of things. 

lol i know, riight? ... jus lemme kick loghain's ........ n we wouldn't have to worry about all the political jibberish.    .... but i guess the game might not have been as.. err... good that way?

[JimmYSkeeZ]

oh and about the elven slavery..... that made my elven character angry! .. he turned all green, and didn't give the slave mage dude a chance. .. the dude was all like "wait, don't kill me yet.. let's make a dea*gets pwned*"

[Sabariel]

Siduri wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Slavery of humans, yes. Slavery of elves? Not so much.

The irony there is that I don't think Loghain himself is a racist, is he? He's willing to sacrifice the elves not because they are elves, but because the Alienage is such poor shape after the riots that he doesn't think it can be successfully defended from a military standpoint.

And the Landsmeet is indeed racist, but for the players who support Loghain, does it really make it better that he's selling elves and not humans?

I doubt that is the reason he chose to sell elves. I think he chose elves because no one would miss them essentially. The guardsmen certainly didn't care that female elves were being kidnapped from their own wedding. They wouldn't care about "a few elves" going missing either.

[CalJones]

I think he chose elves because Arl Howe suggested it. Remember that Howe's men were the ones to put down the elven uprising, and I daresay that Howe thought shipping the healthier elves off to Tevinter would reduce the amount of rebellious elves in the Alienage.

Of course, there is also disease there, which adds strength to the idea the Alienage could not be saved.

This is speculation on my part, of course, but it seems logical enough.

[Siduri]

The military answer is the one he gives when you confront him about it at the Landsmeet. He needed money to fund the war, and he felt the Alienage could not be saved.

[Sabariel]

I find it hard to take Loghain at his word. I really do.

[Wulfram]

Zjarcal wrote...

Indeed. At the end of the day, the duel is what settles everything.

I've always wondered, if tradition says that a duel settles a dispute and considering that neither party (Loghain or Eamon and the Warden) is willing to accept the other as the winner (a mentality they both seem to carry right from the start), why not simply jump to the duel and skip all the pointless rambling?

Would've saved a lot of saliva for everyone.

Loghain sees himself as in the stronger position, and won't chance everything on a duel unless he's forced into it

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 septembre 2010 - 10:19 .

[ollifear]

But then again, Loghain always thinks he has the tactical Upper Hand...

You'd think that after all these defeats he would step down and admit defeat. Apparently not - he's lost the battles, but the war is still winnable!



I've done both. Twice. I always feel bad for Alistair. But I get over it.

Would feel much worse if I didn't have the eh-herm with huh? afterwards.

[Wulfram]

CalJones wrote...

I think he chose elves because Arl Howe suggested it. Remember that Howe's men were the ones to put down the elven uprising, and I daresay that Howe thought shipping the healthier elves off to Tevinter would reduce the amount of rebellious elves in the Alienage.
Of course, there is also disease there, which adds strength to the idea the Alienage could not be saved.
This is speculation on my part, of course, but it seems logical enough.

As best as I can work out, there was no elven uprising - unless you count 2 or 3 kids with swords trying to rescue people from Vaughan, and Howe's men weren't involved there.  It was a pretext for Howe to send in his troops - and explain Vaughan's disappearance, if necessary.

The disease too - it clearly existed, but how many of the deaths were real and how many were actually shipped to Tevinter?

[Persephone]

ollifear wrote...

But then again, Loghain always thinks he has the tactical Upper Hand...
You'd think that after all these defeats he would step down and admit defeat. Apparently not - he's lost the battles, but the war is still winnable!

I've done both. Twice. I always feel bad for Alistair. But I get over it.
Would feel much worse if I didn't have the eh-herm with huh? afterwards.

What defeats? Ostagar? He has won every battle between Ostagar and the Landsmeet.

[nos_astra]

Persephone wrote...
What defeats? Ostagar? He has won every battle between Ostagar and the Landsmeet.

What battles? Is this a rumour I missed?

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
What defeats? Ostagar? He has won every battle between Ostagar and the Landsmeet.

What battles? Is this a rumour I missed?

There have been battles between Loghain & his allies against those opposing him. He won them all. According to Bodhann, anyway.