223 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

The real problem for the alienage is population control and that's partially why a purge happens every once and a while. To keep the population as low as possible. Population growth leads to less room for the elves -----> more discontentment -----> rioting ----> purge. Obviously other reasons for purge can and do exist, but population growth is definately an important variable.

So that has to be taken into account. Either the alienages need to be expanded to allow for more room, or allow the elves to live wherever they want, or reduce the population via some way.

- Expanding the alienage seems very difficult to do and would require restructuring the entire city, at the expense of human districts. Very possible source of conflict.

- Let the elves live wherever they want might breed anger and hatred from the humans and might be very dangerous for the elves themselves. Even if allowed to do so, would elves risk to live in a predominantly human district on their own or would they rather stay clumped up together? I'd say the latter.

- Reduce the population either by purging, or discouraging reproduction, or finding a way to reduce their fertility rate (probably via magic).

I would propose creating other alienages on the outskirts of the city. That way, elves could be divided in several alienages and you don't risk all of them rioting at once.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 septembre 2010 - 09:26 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Building suburbs or alienage like areas on the outskirts may work.

I think its more of an issue with no jobs being present.



With the blight though there are plenty of places that need fixing. So like you said KoP big government projects could work. Though only for a while, there needs to be jobs at the end or youre back to square one again. Although a square with more roads and such that is.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

If the elves are smart, once the reconstruction finishes, they will take what they have earned, both money and experience, and use it to improve their lot, as well as the lot for future generations. Like saving up the money to send their kids to schooling, or start their own businesses, or gain enough respect that their opportunities shall improve.

[Addai]

Bruddajakka wrote...

And I honestly think I already did enough for them by killing Vaughn. Now I mostly did it because he was too damn stupid to be left alive. But they don't know that.

So you don't consider it your responsibility as ruler to work for the welfare of your citizens?  Even if you don't care about elves per se, the cycle of violence and disease we see in-game is not healthy for the human population, either.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Building suburbs or alienage like areas on the outskirts may work.
I think its more of an issue with no jobs being present.

With the blight though there are plenty of places that need fixing. So like you said KoP big government projects could work. Though only for a while, there needs to be jobs at the end or youre back to square one again. Although a square with more roads and such that is.

Anora's reforms that focus on trade and education will probably result in a strong middle class eventually. The middle class historically speaking has been a very entrepreneur class. These, if given the opportunity, tend to create jobs via their enterprises. Elves being cheap would make them valuable.

Of course the fear is that some humans might see the elves as taking over their jobs since the bourgoisie would be favoring elves because they are cheaper (same dynamics with immigrants in today's world). This could be alleviated via education, in which most humans would be too qualified for menial labour and would be enlisted as something higher. But you obviously can't make all humans qualified enough.
 
You'll always have problems. Even in today's world, we still have problems vis a vis this.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 septembre 2010 - 09:34 .

[Befit]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The real problem for the alienage is population control and that's partially why a purge happens every once and a while. To keep the population as low as possible. Population growth leads to less room for the elves -----> more discontentment -----> rioting ----> purge. Obviously other reasons for purge can and do exist, but population growth is definately an important variable.

So that has to be taken into account. Either the alienages need to be expanded to allow for more room, or allow the elves to live wherever they want, or reduce the population via some way.

- Expanding the alienage seems very difficult to do and would require restructuring the entire city, at the expense of human districts. Very possible source of conflict.

- Let the elves live wherever they want might breed anger and hatred from the humans and might be very dangerous for the elves themselves. Even if allowed to do so, would elves risk to live in a predominantly human district on their own or would they rather stay clumped up together? I'd say the latter.

- Reduce the population either by purging, or discouraging reproduction, or finding a way to reduce their fertility rate (probably via magic).

I would propose creating other alienages on the outskirts of the city. That way, elves could be divided in several alienages and you don't risk all of them rioting at once.

Actually the elves are allowed to live wear they want if they have the coin (which most don't) but when they do thier homes are usually broken in to and ransacked by the humans. As the elder said "These walls are more to keep them out rather than us in"

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

If the elves are smart, once the reconstruction finishes, they will take what they have earned, both money and experience, and use it to improve their lot, as well as the lot for future generations. Like saving up the money to send their kids to schooling, or start their own businesses, or gain enough respect that their opportunities shall improve.

Problems is, elves are not as smart as Jews.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Befit wrote...
Actually the elves are allowed to live wear they want if they have the coin (which most don't) but when they do thier homes are usually broken in to and ransacked by the humans. As the elder said "These walls are more to keep them out rather than us in"

Oh, I didn't know that, thanks for informing me!
Like I said though, elves would rather live in the alienage.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Building suburbs or alienage like areas on the outskirts may work.
I think its more of an issue with no jobs being present.

With the blight though there are plenty of places that need fixing. So like you said KoP big government projects could work. Though only for a while, there needs to be jobs at the end or youre back to square one again. Although a square with more roads and such that is.

Anora's reforms that focus on trade and education will probably result in a strong middle class eventually. The middle class historically speaking has been a very entrepreneur class. These, if given the opportunity, tend to create jobs via their enterprises. Elves being cheap would make them valuable.

Of course the fear is that some humans might see the elves as taking over their jobs since the bourgpoisie would be favoring elves because they are cheaper (same dynamics with immigrants in today's world). This could be alleviated via education, in which most humans would be too qualified for menial labour and would be enlisted as something higher. But you obviously can't make all humans qualified enough.
 
You'll always have problems. Even in today's world, we still have problems vis a vis this.

Yeah I dont want to be in either Alistair or Anora's shoes while trying to fix things.

I shudder to imagine how many headaches they would get trying to solve problems.

As a side note:
I doubt that a Bhelen style reform would work. Unlike the Romans or Dwarves, Fereldan does not have enemies to fight at all times to do this really.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

If the elves are smart, once the reconstruction finishes, they will take what they have earned, both money and experience, and use it to improve their lot, as well as the lot for future generations. Like saving up the money to send their kids to schooling, or start their own businesses, or gain enough respect that their opportunities shall improve.

Problems is, elves are not as smart as Jews.

Many of them lack a real work ethic as well.

Jewish/Protestant/Jain/Muslims all had built in drives from their readings and cultures that made them want to do well. Most elves seem happy just scrapping by. That wont help you in the long run at all.

[Befit]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Befit wrote...
Actually the elves are allowed to live wear they want if they have the coin (which most don't) but when they do thier homes are usually broken in to and ransacked by the humans. As the elder said "These walls are more to keep them out rather than us in"

Oh, I didn't know that, thanks for informing me!
Like I said though, elves would rather live in the alienage.

True, safer that way. But I still believe a soveriegn elven nation would be best as long as fereldan and said elven nation sign a non-hostility treaty.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

If the elves are smart, once the reconstruction finishes, they will take what they have earned, both money and experience, and use it to improve their lot, as well as the lot for future generations. Like saving up the money to send their kids to schooling, or start their own businesses, or gain enough respect that their opportunities shall improve.

Problems is, elves are not as smart as Jews.

  I'm not even gonna touch that and I hope you're kidding.  This is the remnants of the great civilization of Arlathan, I remind you.

It's my understanding that elves can't own property outside alienages, so in essence they can only legally live outside them if they're under human employment or wandering like the Dalish.  So I would say property rights is number one.  If you can't own property, you can't get ahead even if you do have skills and/or cash.

I would also be interested in seeing the tax system.  A lot of medieval societies oppressed even supposedly "free" minorities through unequal taxation.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Problems is, elves are not as smart as Jews.

LOL! You got that right.

The alienage really reminded me more of a trailer park than a ghetto.

Guess we won't be seeing the lawfirm of Levin and Bernstein & Associates anytime soon in the alienage, or a sudden surge in the popularity of bagel cafe's in Denerim.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Anora's reforms that focus on trade and education will probably result in a strong middle class eventually. The middle class historically speaking has been a very entrepreneur class. These, if given the opportunity, tend to create jobs via their enterprises. Elves being cheap would make them valuable.
 

Elves being cheap would make them cheap, I think.

Your plans make the Tevinter Imperium seem progressive.  A slave is at least valuable to his master.  An unskilled manual labourer who can never be anything more is of no value to anyone, because he can be easily replaced.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

If the elves are smart, once the reconstruction finishes, they will take what they have earned, both money and experience, and use it to improve their lot, as well as the lot for future generations. Like saving up the money to send their kids to schooling, or start their own businesses, or gain enough respect that their opportunities shall improve.

Problems is, elves are not as smart as Jews.

Many of them lack a real work ethic as well.

Jewish/Protestant/Jain/Muslims all had built in drives from their readings and cultures that made them want to do well. Most elves seem happy just scrapping by. That wont help you in the long run at all.

Oh well, if they can't be bothered, neither should we.

[Befit]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

If the elves are smart, once the reconstruction finishes, they will take what they have earned, both money and experience, and use it to improve their lot, as well as the lot for future generations. Like saving up the money to send their kids to schooling, or start their own businesses, or gain enough respect that their opportunities shall improve.

Problems is, elves are not as smart as Jews.

Many of them lack a real work ethic as well.

Jewish/Protestant/Jain/Muslims all had built in drives from their readings and cultures that made them want to do well. Most elves seem happy just scrapping by. That wont help you in the long run at all.

Where did you get that from? Most elves I see are horribly depressed due to thier situation

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
Elves being cheap would make them cheap, I think.

Your plans make the Tevinter Imperium seem progressive.  A slave is at least valuable to his master.  An unskilled manual labourer who can never be anything more is of no value to anyone, because he can be easily replaced.

Welcome to capitalism 101.
If the elves can't be bothered to be anything else, then they have no place.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

If the elves are smart, once the reconstruction finishes, they will take what they have earned, both money and experience, and use it to improve their lot, as well as the lot for future generations. Like saving up the money to send their kids to schooling, or start their own businesses, or gain enough respect that their opportunities shall improve.

Problems is, elves are not as smart as Jews.

Many of them lack a real work ethic as well.

Jewish/Protestant/Jain/Muslims all had built in drives from their readings and cultures that made them want to do well. Most elves seem happy just scrapping by. That wont help you in the long run at all.

Oh well, if they can't be bothered, neither should we.

True you cant force progress on people, they must be willing to move forward and acheive as well.
The current alienage elves just want to stay under the radar, while the dalish want to travel back to Arlathan.
Neither is possible with what is coming.

Sometimes you need to boot people in the ass, not just coo gentle words to them I guess.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

First off I would level the alienage and rebuild it for better living conditions, it also wouldn't be walled off anymore.  The area around the tree used for a community garden and for them to grew fresh produce to sell to others. I would allow them access to the waters off Denerim for them to start their own fishing communtities, which would also increase trade. Their Dalish cousins might be able to help with this endeavour. I would also encourage them to set up shops in the market district and increase trade with humans and dwarves for various wares. The elves seem really good with herbal remedies and can open shops for this along with their own crafts of armours and equipment.

Each calander year: Humans, Dwarves, and Elves will have their own honor festival day for their help with the blight to increase culture awareness.  All will be welcome to the party. 

I would also allow them the opportunity to join the King/Queens armies as a way to serve others but also give them an honest income.

I would open a free school of learing for all citizens who wish to grow as a person and citizen. If the chantry agrees, they could become templars and even scholars to help them recover and start the documentation of their current history. Give those who want to become warriors the training to do so.

There would be equalilty under the laws for all. If more Vaughn's pop up, then the elves have the same rights and protection from harm as any citizen and the justice should be equal regardless of the evil doers position in society, this also includes elves who are thugs and if caught, they get the same punishment as their counterparts in the rest of society. You can only play the victim card for so long. I would have them sign a treaty that they agree to these punishments if one of their own is caught, the same for surface dwarves as well. I'd have Behlen/Harrowmont sign a similar treaty for surface dwarves.   I would also enact a law allowing them to bare arms to protect themselves, then everyone is on equal footing in this area. 

I think the elves should be given a helping hand, but it's up to them change their own image and stop feeling sorry for themselves. My elf wardens changed their life under hard circumstances, so they should see my example and try to build a better life for themselves and realize they have to trust, especially after the blight. It's up to them, but everyone should help give them a chance, as King/Queen I would set this example.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 10 septembre 2010 - 09:54 .

[Reika]

Befit wrote...
Actually the elves are allowed to live wear they want if they have the coin (which most don't) but when they do thier homes are usually broken in to and ransacked by the humans. As the elder said "These walls are more to keep them out rather than us in"

Not just that, but in the Codex: Alienage Culture it implies that elves that leave the Alienage aren't too welcome judging by the quote "The flat-ears who have gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be
human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does
that leave them? Nowhere."

The elves seem to prefer sticking to the Alienages for their own culture.

I'll admit, my Cousland would do what she could to help rebuild the Alienage along with the rest of Denerim as well as giving them the means to try to get their own businesses going. She'd also be big on education overall for all Ferelden citizens, at least basic reading, writing and arithmetric.

She'd also try to get a better organized standing army, but that's the player's pet peeve after seeing how things went in Ostagar, the Blight in general and the mess that was Amaranthine after the Blight. One that would allow elves to fight for their country.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
  I'm not even gonna touch that and I hope you're kidding.  This is the remnants of the great civilization of Arlathan, I remind you.

That is long gone. Their past won't secure their future. 

Addai67 wrote...
So I would say property rights is number one.  If you can't own property, you can't get ahead even if you do have skills and/or cash.

They can own property, just inside the alienage. If you want them to buy outside, you'll need to ensure security, because they won't risk investing outside the alienage if it isn't secured.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Welcome to capitalism 101.
If the elves can't be bothered to be anything else, then they have no place.

How can the elves be anything else, when they are not allowed?

It's worth noting that there are apparently some pretty skilled elves out there already - Nelaros is a blacksmith.  But it seems it's more useful for you if they're kept as the underclass.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
  I'm not even gonna touch that and I hope you're kidding.  This is the remnants of the great civilization of Arlathan, I remind you.

That is long gone. Their past won't secure their future. 

Your statement is very absolute, however.  Bordering on the "r" word.

Addai67 wrote...
So I would say property rights is number one.  If you can't own property, you can't get ahead even if you do have skills and/or cash.

They can own property, just inside the alienage. If you want them to buy outside, you'll need to ensure security, because they won't risk investing outside the alienage if it isn't secured.

Some would.  People do it all the time, in all sorts of places.  If they have opportunity to better themselves, they'll do it even if risks are involved.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They can own property, just inside the alienage. If you want them to buy outside, you'll need to ensure security, because they won't risk investing outside the alienage if it isn't secured.

Even inside the Alienage, it's obviously only their's as long as some noble doesn't want it.  Just like their women.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
How can the elves be anything else, when they are not allowed?

It's worth noting that there are apparently some pretty skilled elves out there already - Nelaros is a blacksmith.  But it seems it's more useful for you if they're kept as the underclass.

 I didn't say I wouldn't allow them eventually. But equal opportunity requires time. I know it's tempting to want to change everything overnight, but that won't work. The modern world still suffers those same problems (albeit with immigrants now). 
 
If there are elves who are skilled and know how to invest their money, then they won't be stopped no. And I would make sure to provide as much security as possible. How do they get their money? Well they have to save it from generation to generation.

I won't lie, this will require very hard work from the elves and a lot of patience and planing. The state won't do it for them overnight.