223 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Welcome to capitalism 101.
If the elves can't be bothered to be anything else, then they have no place.

Which pretty much sums up my feelings. They deserve what they are willing to work hard for.

I attempted another city elf playthrough, and that is on hold because I find I can't get into playing the character. The origin story and the attitude of the elves made it hard for me to take them seriously, or play an elven Warden. I'll finish it someday, but I'm much happier redoing my dwarf.

Like I said, being in the alienage felt more like a trailer park than a ghetto. Even amongst themselves, I saw no evidence of industry or the drive toward self improvement, just a bunch of people who allow themselves to be exploited and abused because they are too weak or lazy to stand up and improve their lot, even amongst themselves.

Even a casteless dwarf seems far more motivated and willing to take an active role in their own futures.

[Addai]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

First off I would level the alienage and rebuild it for better living conditions. The area around the tree used for a community garden and for them to grew fresh produce to sell to others.

This kind of thing always sounds better in theory than it ends up being in practice.  Besides being oppressive.  Level people's homes?  They are not going to take kindly to that, even if you're going to come in and build nice new modern ones.  It doesn't change any of the underlying problems.  See:  Projects in inner-city USA, council housing in Britian.  "Garden cities" movements fail if they are not done on a micro level, from the initiative of neighbors helping neighbors and individuals bettering their own front doorstep.

 I would also encourage them to set up shops in the market district and increase trade with humans and dwarves for various wares. The elves seem really good with herbal remedies and can open shops for this along with their own crafts of armours and equipment.

Yeah, apparently they aren't legally allowed to trade, either, since Alarith tries to hush the fact that he has a store even in the alienage.  Guess that's like the casteless dwarves, too.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Some would.  People do it all the time, in all sorts of places.  If they have opportunity to better themselves, they'll do it even if risks are involved.

They would risk having their business burned and family killed? And even if they did, if that happens it would discourage the others.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

 I didn't say I wouldn't allow them eventually. But equal opportunity requires time. I know it's tempting to want to change everything overnight, but that won't work.  

But if you allow no change now, then time will achive nothing.  In your world, in 50 years time the Elves will have been kept as poor as ever, and with the rest of the world moving on the situation will be even worse suited to any improvement in their lot.

[Befit]

Would you work hard when you're likely to work hard, un-wanted, and dangerous jobs for barely any pay to end up getting injured and what do the humans do? get a healer? no. Give some medicine? no. they throw you in an alley way to be found three days later by your sons. If that's your future why work hard just to never be an equal?

Modifié par Befit, 10 septembre 2010 - 09:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

 I didn't say I wouldn't allow them eventually. But equal opportunity requires time. I know it's tempting to want to change everything overnight, but that won't work.  

But if you allow no change now, then time will achive nothing.  In your world, in 50 years time the Elves will have been kept as poor as ever, and with the rest of the world moving on the situation will be even worse suited to any improvement in their lot.

You think 50 years is enough to solve this? It will take centuries.
And the rest of the world is even worse than Ferelden when it comes to elves, so no problem in that regard.

With the end of the blight and state projects required to jumpstart the economy, the elves have an opportunity. If they dont' take it, then nothing can be done for them.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
You think 50 years is enough to solve this? It will take centuries.
And the rest of the world is even worse than Ferelden when it comes to elves, so no problem in that regard.

With the end of the blight and state projects required to jumpstart the economy, the elves have an opportunity. If they dont' take it, then nothing can be done for them.

They have an opportunity, but only if the government isn't actively discriminating against them as you propose.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Some would.  People do it all the time, in all sorts of places.  If they have opportunity to better themselves, they'll do it even if risks are involved.

They would risk having their business burned and family killed? And even if they did, if that happens it would discourage the others.

Sure.  Our continent was settled by people like that.  Granted, the notion of the pioneer moving west is a romantic one, but people risked everything just for the promise of a patch of land where they could work themselves to the bone and have no guarantee of return.  In a feudal society, all it takes is some incentives for landholders to open their contracts to elven serfs and let them compete for them (edit: and force the landholders to treat them fairly).  Eventually a few of the more enterprising would begin to own their own land, assuming they could legally do so.  There would be opposition and dissension, but as I said upthread, until humans see elves being treated as persons, the cycle will only continue.

Ditto in the cities with tradesmen.  Give incentives for tradesmen to take on elven apprentices, and allow elves to form their own guilds if not join the human ones.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 septembre 2010 - 09:59 .

[Befit]

Wulfram wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
You think 50 years is enough to solve this? It will take centuries.
And the rest of the world is even worse than Ferelden when it comes to elves, so no problem in that regard.

With the end of the blight and state projects required to jumpstart the economy, the elves have an opportunity. If they dont' take it, then nothing can be done for them.

They have an opportunity, but only if the government isn't actively discriminating against them as you propose.

Or the people, humans truly believe that elves are pest. These don't sound like the understanding type to me

[KnightofPhoenix]

Befit wrote...
Would you work hard when you're likely to work hard, un-wanted, and dangerous jobs for barely any pay to end up getting injured and what do the humans do? get a healer? no. Give some medicine? no. they throw you in an alley way to be found three days later by your sons. If that's your future why work hard just to never be an equal?

And that my friend is defeatism. It will get them nowhere.
No one is saying it's not going to be ugly, it is. But if Ferelden's economy does grow, so does the elve's chance to make something out of themselves. And generation after generation could strengthen their lot, or weaken it it depends largely on what they do with their money.

Also, if Ferelden's merchant class grows, they will require a strong and lucrative market. When that happens, salary for the elves can be increased, so they can consume. IT will require State intervention every once and a while, but I personally do not believe that the State can deal with thise on its own.
 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
They have an opportunity, but only if the government isn't actively discriminating against them as you propose.

Where did I say that the government should be actively discriminating against them?
Because they are giving them cheap jobs? So you owuld rather not have the government give them jobs and let them find it on their own?

Eh, that'll be even more diifcult.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Sure.  Our continent was settled by people like that.  Granted, the notion of the pioneer moving west is a romantic one, but people risked everything just for the promise of a patch of land where they could work themselves to the bone and have no guarantee of return.  .

Problem is, your continent was empty (barring the natives that of course were ignored). There are no lands for the elves to get.

Addai67 wrote...
In a feudal society, all it takes is some incentives for landholders to open their contracts to elven serfs and let them compete for them (edit: and force the landholders to treat them fairly).  Eventually a few of the more enterprising would begin to own their own land, assuming they could legally do so. 

I hope you realise that "serfdom" is slavery as they are not paid, just given a small part of what they cultivate and the vast majority goes to their lord. So they can't invest if they are not paid.

Addai67 wrote...
Ditto in the cities with tradesmen.  Give incentives for tradesmen to take on elven apprentices, and allow elves to
form their own guilds if not join the human ones.

Possible, but they'll have to be very cheap. That's the only incentive.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 septembre 2010 - 10:05 .

[Befit]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Befit wrote...
Would you work hard when you're likely to work hard, un-wanted, and dangerous jobs for barely any pay to end up getting injured and what do the humans do? get a healer? no. Give some medicine? no. they throw you in an alley way to be found three days later by your sons. If that's your future why work hard just to never be an equal?

And that my friend is defeatism. It will get them nowhere.
No one is saying it's not going to be ugly, it is. But if Ferelden's economy does grow, so does the elve's chance to make something out of themselves. And generation after generation could strengthen their lot, or weaken it it depends largely on what they do with their money.

Also, if Ferelden's merchant class grows, they will require a strong and lucrative market. When that happens, salary for the elves can be increased, so they can consume. IT will require State intervention every once and a while, but I personally do not believe that the State can deal with thise on its own.
 

They are just trying to survive, that alone is hard. The human populace is the problem. It's not like their views changed with the law. To them the elves are slaves and always will be. If elves need a kick in the rear then so do the humans, especially the humans.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Even a casteless dwarf seems far more motivated and willing to take an active role in their own futures.

I guess that's what  you could call Beraht's organization.  LOL

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I think the best thing for the elves would be to eliminate the alienages. That doesn't happen over night of course, but I would try to set up the stepping stones to do so.



An Elven bann would be my first step. Representation is key and would give the elves a voice directly to the nobility as an equal, and give the elves an ear to listen through.



Next I would contact the Chantry, and encourage them to look at elves as possible; Templars, Initiates, and Priests I don't like the idea of taking a child out of his/her family, but an education is invaluable especially in a setting like Fereldon's, and the Chantry educates their subjects pretty well. Not to mention the Chantry/Circle seem to treat elves equally.



I would encourage military enlistment. Bring back the Night Elves create their own brigade to keep racial tension to a minimum. In return give them chances to better themselves for their services offer apprenticeships(blacksmith, tanner, merchant, etc).



Infastructure needs to be rebuilt after a Blight. I would tap the Alienage for work there they get to travel and build across Fereldon. Clearing out the habitable parts of the wilds jobs for Logging, Agriculture, etc on the new land.

[Giggles_Manically]

The elves are in a bad place, like most people were in a Medieval setting.

Poor, abused, uneducated, and treated like crap.



However technology, industry, education. and a move from feudal to market economies changed that and saw the emergence on a middle class. But people had to WORK to get that, never forget that part.



Its the same in every place the world over, without industry, or education or a market/trade based economy things stagnate and dont chage.

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
They have an opportunity, but only if the government isn't actively discriminating against them as you propose.

Where did I say that the government should be actively discriminating against them?
Because they are giving them cheap jobs? So you owuld rather not have the government give them jobs and let them find it on their own?

Eh, that'll be even more diifcult.

You said that the elves are going to be paid less for their labour - which I understood to mean that they're going to get less than an unskilled human.  If the Government is employing, it is the government which is discriminating

Given that a even a human labourers wages are going to be at barely above survival at this stage of developement, the pittance you're offering is no better than what they are getting now, and offers no hope for the future except as an oppressed underclass becoming more oppressed with every passing year.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Befit wrote...
They are just trying to survive, that alone is hard. The human populace is the problem. It's not like their views changed with the law. To them the elves are slaves and always will be. If elves need a kick in the rear then so do the humans, especially the humans.

Sure, but that will require time and patience. And for the elves to prove that they are not worthless.

[Befit]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The elves are in a bad place, like most people were in a Medieval setting.
Poor, abused, uneducated, and treated like crap.

However technology, industry, education. and a move from feudal to market economies changed that and saw the emergence on a middle class. But people had to WORK to get that, never forget that part.

Its the same in every place the world over, without industry, or education or a market/trade based economy things stagnate and dont chage.

But most other places it's just the rich over the poor in this situation it's the rich over the poor and the poor taking it out on the elves. Elves get double discrmination

Modifié par Befit, 10 septembre 2010 - 10:10 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Sure.  Our continent was settled by people like that.  Granted, the notion of the pioneer moving west is a romantic one, but people risked everything just for the promise of a patch of land where they could work themselves to the bone and have no guarantee of return.  .

Problem is, your continent was empty (barring the natives that of course were ignored). There are no lands for the elves to get.

I get the impression that a lot of Ferelden is uncultivated.  They don't seem to have a space problem.

Addai67 wrote...
In a feudal society, all it takes is some incentives for landholders to open their contracts to elven serfs and let them compete for them (edit: and force the landholders to treat them fairly).  Eventually a few of the more enterprising would begin to own their own land, assuming they could legally do so. 

I hope you realise that "serfdom" is slavery as they are not paid, just given a small part of what they cultivate and the vast majority goes to their lord. So they can't invest if they are not paid.

They pay rent to work their land and in feudal England also paid other fees and dues to the lord just as we pay taxes, but these were nominal or oppressive depending on the labor markets.  The monarchy could control that to some extent by setting standards for what landholders were allowed to charge fees for and how much.  And enterprising serfs did rise to become smallholders, at least in English society.  They also had two-way rights to the land and could pass on their rental contracts to their heirs.  So even if the first generation doesn't get up the ladder, a second or third might.

Addai67 wrote...
Ditto in the cities with tradesmen.  Give incentives for tradesmen to take on elven apprentices, and allow elves to
form their own guilds if not join the human ones.

Possible, but they'll have to be very cheap. That's the only incentive.

By "incentive" I mean the crown could offer a small stipend.  This could be something you offer for human poor as well, those who aren't able to pay a master for an apprenticeship spot.  But I think the very nature of the beast would mean that elves would come more cheaply than human apprentices.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 septembre 2010 - 10:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
You said that the elves are going to be paid less for their labour - which I understood to mean that they're going to get less than an unskilled human.  If the Government is employing, it is the government which is discriminating

Given that a even a human labourers wages are going to be at barely above survival at this stage of developement, the pittance you're offering is no better than what they are getting now, and offers no hope for the future except as an oppressed underclass becoming more oppressed with every passing year.

Because they would be enlisted to do menial tasks, that's why. Those skilled and wealthy enough to act on their skill can do so.  If they are skilled but have no money to act on it, then hey life's unfair.

Which is why I am saying that this will require growth for it to work. Ferelden not experiencing any growth and development will not lead to the betterment of the elves. This is going to take time. A lot of time.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Addai67 wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

First off I would level the alienage and rebuild it for better living conditions. The area around the tree used for a community garden and for them to grew fresh produce to sell to others.

This kind of thing always sounds better in theory than it ends up being in practice.  Besides being oppressive.  Level people's homes?  They are not going to take kindly to that, even if you're going to come in and build nice new modern ones.  It doesn't change any of the underlying problems.  See:  Projects in inner-city USA, council housing in Britian.  "Garden cities" movements fail if they are not done on a micro level, from the initiative of neighbors helping neighbors and individuals bettering their own front doorstep.

 I would also encourage them to set up shops in the market district and increase trade with humans and dwarves for various wares. The elves seem really good with herbal remedies and can open shops for this along with their own crafts of armours and equipment.

Yeah, apparently they aren't legally allowed to trade, either, since Alarith tries to hush the fact that he has a store even in the alienage.  Guess that's like the casteless dwarves, too.

The alienage has to be leveled anyway because of the damage from the riots before the landsmeet and during the battle of Denerim.  Even Loghain said it was totally destroyed.  Thus, it has to be totally rebuilt.  I would also encourage rebuilding of the Alienage with stone instead of wood structures.  I'd use casteless dwarves for this as well as masons of Denerim, everyone has a job then in the rebuilding. 

With the leveling, ground for intown gardens, since my country is a land of blighted land, the elves have an opportunity to become very rich farmers.  If I killed Vaughn, then I'd level the Arl of Denerim's estate and give them this land too, have two Alienages; one near the market district and one in the south.   

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I get the impression that a lot of Ferelden is uncultivated.  They don't seem to have a space problem.

I get the impression that it can barely be cultivated, due to its climate.
They have no space problem but every land is own by a freeholder. Elves can't own land in these condition unless they become rich enough to afford it. 

They pay rent to work their land and in feudal England also paid other fees and dues to the lord just as we pay taxes, but these were nominal or oppressive depending on the labor markets.  The monarchy could control that to some extent by setting standards for what landholders were allowed to charge fees for and how much.  And enterprising serfs did rise to become smallholders, at least in English society.  They also had two-way rights to the land and could pass on their rental contracts to their heirs, etc.  So even if the first generation doesn't get up the ladder, a second or third might.

That's not serfdom. I don't think they were called serfs.
But yes, that could work. As I said, it will require each generation to work for the future.
But if the salary for the elves will be as much as humans, I'd think most would rather get a human. The only incentive I can think of is cheap salary.

Addai67 wrote...
By "incentive" I mean the crown could offer a small stipend.  This could be something you offer for human poor as well, those who aren't able to pay a master for an apprenticeship spot.  But I think the very nature of the beast would mean that elves would come more cheaply than human apprentices.

That could work too. Those it means that the Crown needs to have a strong economy to sustain such a strategy.
And for elves to prove that they can be skilled, otherwise the stipend offered would be a waste.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 septembre 2010 - 10:19 .

[Befit]

I also believe elves have a more socialist mind set. They always seem to take care of each other and treat all elves as equals. This is also why I believe the city elves should join the dalish, there is a conflict of culture between elves and humans that can only be solved by seperation. The city elves discovering their past with the dalish may help them gain a fighting spirit to help their people.

[Reika]

Befit wrote...

I also believe elves have a more socialist mind set. They always seem to take care of each other and treat all elves as equals. This is also why I believe the city elves should join the dalish, there is a conflict of culture between elves and humans that can only be solved by seperation. The city elves discovering their past with the dalish may help them gain a fighting spirit to help their people.

I dunno, considering how condescending the Dalish were to my city elf warden, seriously they treated my human noble with more courtesy, I'm not so sure joining the Dalish would be any better for the ones born in the Alienage.