223 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

EDIT: actually no, Ferelden needs Ash Warriors whom I think are chasinds.

They are, and unless I am mistaken, the Chasing in general have a very good relation with Fereldan.

[Sarah1281]

Befit wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Except the Dalish always accept the CE's that leave to seek them out. I believe that the Dalish don't like the elves that choose to live under oppression rather then leave and join them. If you've played the dalish elf origin you meet an elf that came from the city and no one treated him unfairly

They eventually do once the CE proves themself to them. In the DE origin, the Dalish seem to be belittling the CE that left to seek them out. They feel that they are better than the CE and were acting like it.

Belittling? that striked me more as training, which sucks for the instructer. Ever tried to teach an adult things that a kid can do? (I mean dalish kids)

Did you question him? Every time he tried to explain why he left, why he was looking for the Dalish, how life was like the guy training him kept looking down on him and you had some dialogue options doing the same thing. Clearly, the attitude of that conversation, which can safely be assumed is the attitude of many Dalish, was that the city elves deserved what happened to them because they won't stand up and fight. Well they did stand up and fight in the CE origin and look where that got them.

[Befit]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Befit wrote...
Except the Dalish always accept the CE's that leave to seek them out. I believe that the Dalish don't like the elves that choose to live under oppression rather then leave and join them. If you've played the dalish elf origin you meet an elf that came from the city and no one treated him unfairly

Question is, would they accept hundreds or thousands coming to them in the same day?
Do they have the economy to sustain such numbers?

I don't think the Dalish can manage to welcome thousands of refugees.
And the land they get at Ostagar, near the kocari wilds, doesn't seem to be arable enough to sustain too much population influx. And is too small anyways.  

If they combine what they what skills they have it's possible. Don't forget that the dalish have their keepers who have plant magic could be used to maximize harvests. Since chasind are andrastians they will either get along better with the elves or be defeated by them. City elves bring organization and city crafts while Dalish bring survival and martial training

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

EDIT: actually no, Ferelden needs Ash Warriors whom I think are chasinds.

They are, and unless I am mistaken, the Chasing in general have a very good relation with Fereldan.

Unless Ferelden can mediate between the two, I don't think I would trade the chasind for the elves. Unless of course they give us trade concessions.

[Befit]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Befit wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Except the Dalish always accept the CE's that leave to seek them out. I believe that the Dalish don't like the elves that choose to live under oppression rather then leave and join them. If you've played the dalish elf origin you meet an elf that came from the city and no one treated him unfairly

They eventually do once the CE proves themself to them. In the DE origin, the Dalish seem to be belittling the CE that left to seek them out. They feel that they are better than the CE and were acting like it.

Belittling? that striked me more as training, which sucks for the instructer. Ever tried to teach an adult things that a kid can do? (I mean dalish kids)

Did you question him? Every time he tried to explain why he left, why he was looking for the Dalish, how life was like the guy training him kept looking down on him and you had some dialogue options doing the same thing. Clearly, the attitude of that conversation, which can safely be assumed is the attitude of many Dalish, was that the city elves deserved what happened to them because they won't stand up and fight. Well they did stand up and fight in the CE origin and look where that got them.

Have you ever gone through martial training? They don't hold your hand and tell you your special. They breakdown your old personality to be replaced with a harder, meaner, more efficient one. so yeah they gotta hurt the trainee's feelings

Modifié par Befit, 10 septembre 2010 - 11:32 .

[Befit]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

EDIT: actually no, Ferelden needs Ash Warriors whom I think are chasinds.

They are, and unless I am mistaken, the Chasing in general have a very good relation with Fereldan.

Unless Ferelden can mediate between the two, I don't think I would trade the chasind for the elves. Unless of course they give us trade concessions.

What? I remember the chasind in Lothering getting accused of being a thief and that "they're all the same" that dosn't sound like good standing

[Costin_Razvan]

Have you ever gone through military training? They don't hold your hand and tell you your special. They breakdown your old personality to be replaced with a harder, meaner, more efficient one. so yeah they gotta hurt the trainee's feelings

Sarah has lived a mostly sheltered life, a fact she herself acknowledged. But I think her point was that the Dalish do not look kindly on CEs, and I think she right based on what Lanaya also tells us ( she mentions having to work far harder then all the rest because she was a City Elf, and that's prejudice )

 What? I remember the chasind in Lothering getting accused of being a thief and that "they're all the same" that dosn't sound like good standing

A Chasind refugee....accused by ANOTHER Chasind in front of a Templar.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 10 septembre 2010 - 11:34 .

[Befit]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Have you ever gone through military training? They don't hold your hand and tell you your special. They breakdown your old personality to be replaced with a harder, meaner, more efficient one. so yeah they gotta hurt the trainee's feelings

Sarah has lived a mostly sheltered life, a fact she herself acknowledged. But I think her point was that the Dalish do not look kindly on CEs, and I think she right based on what Lanaya also tells us ( she mentions having to work far harder then all the rest because she was a City Elf, and that's prejudice )

 What? I remember the chasind in Lothering getting accused of being a thief and that "they're all the same" that dosn't sound like good standing

A Chasing refugee....accused by ANOTHER Chasind in front of a Templar.

I thought he said you "wilderfolk" as in the chasind.

As for the dalish elf hatin on CE's maybe but the Dalish aren't trying to rape shianni so I'll go with them

[Costin_Razvan]

I thought he said you "wilderfolk" as in the chasind.

As for the dalish elf hatin on CE's maybe but the Dalish aren't trying to rape shianni so I'll go with them

I find it incredibly insulting to judge every human noble based on Vaughn's actions, and to believe that elves are treated like that everywhere.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 10 septembre 2010 - 11:38 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Befit wrote...
What? I remember the chasind in Lothering getting accused of being a thief and that "they're all the same" that dosn't sound like good standing

You came to that conclusion based on what one refugee said?

But according to the wiki, there is no mention of Ash warriors being chasind.
The Chasind are viewed as barbarians by Fereldens (who themselves are viewed as barbarians by everyone else, go figure).

Eh either way, what I would do is demand trade concessions from the Dalish, in exchange for some support against the Chasind and a promise of non-intervention. Them being such a young state would make them so easily dominated by Ferelden. Almost like a protectorate. 
Well protected until the rest declare an exalted march. No way am I going to protect them then.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 septembre 2010 - 11:44 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

OnionXI wrote...

City Elves are acclimated to Human life. Like Pol says, most of them probably wouldn't want to go run off in the forest. It is their culture now.

I'm not sure what the property and business laws are like regarding elves but if they are restrictive I would loosen those restrictions. Beyond that I wouldn't do much specifically for elves. Maybe I'd allow for all elven military units and see how that works out.

I wouldn't try to beautify their slums for them or grant them swathes of my kingdom they could dominate, that's for sure.

If you don't deal with them, then into the future, you're going to have a worse revolt on your hands then the one that took place in the game during the city elf origin.  The land is blighted, how is the kingdom as a whole going to eat?  Someone has grow crops for revenue and to feed the kingdom, why not the elves, they can't do it without land. 

Are there enough nugs to go around?  I seriously doubt it.  I don't see Behlen/Harrowmont offering to feed the elves especially.  I didn't see to many elves running around Orzammar, even as servants.  So elves to dwarves are even lower than casteless.  

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 10 septembre 2010 - 11:49 .

[maxernst]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Unless they start conquering the Chasind lands.

That would go SO well for human/Dalish relations!

I don't think Ferelden has much more than a couple of hundred thousand people.

This is a rather wrong assumption that many people make based on the numbers we see in Battles.

Ancient Rome ( as in Italy back when Rome controlled before it became an Empire ) had a population of around 6 million.

Medieval Europe reached a population of around 60 million at it's peak, and with mages who can heal wounds I would argue that the life expectancy in Thedas would be higher.

I think people do underestimate the population density of medieval Europe, but I don't know if I"d expect it to be higher in Thedas, unless mages aid in food production.  The frequency of famine was the major constraint on population growth.    Europe was seriously overpopulated (and largely deforested) by the beginning of the 14th century.  I suppose that many deaths during famines are actually from disease, but we don't know if magical healing counters that.  Anyway, the vast majority of people wouldn't have access to magical healing.

I agree with your primary point, though.   I'd guess Ferelden's population as at least one to two million...with ninety percent of them being peasant farmers living in tiny villages that we don't see in the game. 

Looking at the thread some more, however, I doubt that there are hundreds of thousands of city elves.  If Denerim is comparable to medieval London, we're looking at 25-50,000 people, if ten percent are elvish a few thousand.  So if the CE population is concentrated in the cities and towns, the numbers will be thousands, not hundreds of thousands.  But as others have noted, the Dalish aren't very respectful of CE's, and I have no idea how many of them thereare.

Modifié par maxernst, 10 septembre 2010 - 11:51 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I would think the City Elf population would number in the hundreds of thousands....so yeah definitely not sustainable for them.

I got the impression that alot of the elves in the alienage were killed during the riots and the battle in the alienage, I don't think there are thousands of them.  I don't see thousands of dalish elves either.  Humans seems to have the biggest population with dwarves second and elves last. 


I still don't see the population of elves as being vast in Ferelden, in other countries, I see bigger populations of them.  The battle with the Imperium for their freedom, and the Divine March from the Chantry has reduced their numbers greatly in my eyes. 

Alistair/Anora both give the lands around Ostagar for the Dalish a home, they wouldn't have done this if the land couldn't hold the population. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 11 septembre 2010 - 12:10 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Uhm...I think the assumption the Denerim Alienage represents a majority of the population of City Elves in Fereldan is a very wrong one. We know of at least one more Alienage in Highever.

I agree with your primary point, though. I'd guess Ferelden's population as at least one to two million...with ninety percent of them being peasant farmers living in tiny villages that we don't see in the game.

I agree on the population number, though I would probably place most of the population in Denerim, Highever, Amaranthine and others across the country. In my mind, Denerim itself has a population of around three hundred thousand.

[maxernst]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Uhm...I think the assumption the Denerim Alienage represents a majority of the population of City Elves in Fereldan is a very wrong one. We know of at least one more Alienage in Highever.

I agree with your primary point, though. I'd guess Ferelden's population as at least one to two million...with ninety percent of them being peasant farmers living in tiny villages that we don't see in the game.

I agree on the population number, though I would probably place most of the population in Denerim, Highever, Amaranthine and others across the country. In my mind, Denerim itself has a population of around three hundred thousand.

What?  Bigger than any medieval European city except Constantinople and maybe Cordoba?  Paris had less than a hundred thousand, London was smaller still.  I don't see Ferelden as a dominantly urbanized culture--that takes a very sophisticated trade network like the Roman Empire had.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I get the impression that a lot of Ferelden is uncultivated.  They don't seem to have a space problem.

I get the impression that it can barely be cultivated, due to its climate.
They have no space problem but every land is own by a freeholder. Elves can't own land in these condition unless they become rich enough to afford it.

Part of the reason the elves stay in the alienage is because of the problem of intermarriage. The alienage may not have the comforts they want and they may not be nobles, but they can still be elves. I don't see elves having any interest in striking out across the Bannorn in the hopes finding a bit of land to call their own. If they want to stay elves but be free of the alienage, they might as well join the Dalish.

[Sarah1281]

Have you ever gone through military training? They don't hold your hand and tell you your special. They breakdown your old personality to be replaced with a harder, meaner, more efficient one. so yeah they gotta hurt the trainee's feelings

Yeah, you know what? That's great. How, exactly, does telling him that the Dalish believe that those who live in the city aren't real elves (or even the fact that they believe it) not count as belittling or help to train him? They don't respect the city elves, realize what they go through, or even really care. Writing off an entire group of your people because they aren't wanders like them seems a bit further than trying to toughen one guy up.

[KnightofPhoenix]

maxernst wrote...
What?  Bigger than any medieval European city except Constantinople and maybe Cordoba?  Paris had less than a hundred thousand, London was smaller still.  I don't see Ferelden as a dominantly urbanized culture--that takes a very sophisticated trade network like the Roman Empire had.

Agreed. The two biggest cities in medieval Europe were Constantinople and Cordoba. Cordoba was three hundred thousand + (some sources say half a million, which wouldn't be too farfetched as Baghdad in the same time had about that or more).

Denerim would barely reach 1 hundred thousand. Perhaps even less.  

[Befit]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Befit wrote...
What? I remember the chasind in Lothering getting accused of being a thief and that "they're all the same" that dosn't sound like good standing

You came to that conclusion based on what one refugee said?

But according to the wiki, there is no mention of Ash warriors being chasind.
The Chasind are viewed as barbarians by Fereldens (who themselves are viewed as barbarians by everyone else, go figure).

Eh either way, what I would do is demand trade concessions from the Dalish, in exchange for some support against the Chasind and a promise of non-intervention. Them being such a young state would make them so easily dominated by Ferelden. Almost like a protectorate. 
Well protected until the rest declare an exalted march. No way am I going to protect them then.  

I agree with that, I have to say you make the most sense from what I've seen put up here. However, I also see the inclusion of a chanrty in the dalish state in order for Fereldan to stay in the good graces of the chantry of Orlais.

[Sarah1281]

Befit wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Befit wrote...
What? I remember the chasind in Lothering getting accused of being a thief and that "they're all the same" that dosn't sound like good standing

You came to that conclusion based on what one refugee said?

But according to the wiki, there is no mention of Ash warriors being chasind.
The Chasind are viewed as barbarians by Fereldens (who themselves are viewed as barbarians by everyone else, go figure).

Eh either way, what I would do is demand trade concessions from the Dalish, in exchange for some support against the Chasind and a promise of non-intervention. Them being such a young state would make them so easily dominated by Ferelden. Almost like a protectorate. 
Well protected until the rest declare an exalted march. No way am I going to protect them then.  

I agree with that, I have to say you make the most sense from what I've seen put up here. However, I also see the inclusion of a chanrty in the dalish state in order for Fereldan to stay in the good graces of the chantry of Orlais.

Do you REALLY think that they would agree to that? The Chantry's exalted march took their second home and they think the Maker was the enemy of their own gods.

[Herr Uhl]

I don't think Ferelden has more than a couple of hundred thousand inhabitants. Cross reference with places that have similar conditions during the medieval era, Scotland and Scandinavia. None of then had any big populations at all.



I'd wager at 500 000 myself.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Befit wrote...
I agree with that, I have to say you make the most sense from what I've seen put up here. However, I also see the inclusion of a chanrty in the dalish state in order for Fereldan to stay in the good graces of the chantry of Orlais.

Thank you

A Chantry in Dalish lands might be seen as extremily insulting for the Dalish though. It's not like in Orzammar, because dwarves don't have bad blood with humans. But the elves were enslaved by the Chantry.
 
Finding a way to mediate between them and the Chantry will be necessary, I agree. And that will be extremily difficult. We know from Awakening that the Temaplrs are trying to find ways to combat Dalish magic. They are very mistrustful towards them and rightfully so (considering what Zathrian did). The Dalish too are righfully mistrustful of the Chantry. 

So while Ferelden might be able to mediate between the two, there may come a time when it will be forced to pick one side over the other. In which case, I pick the Chantry's side; even if I am not fond of them.

Perhaps the Chantry can be persuaded to allow Ferelden do the surveillance on the Dalish. While persuade the Dalish to give us even more trade concessions and allow missionaries to come in if we turn a blind eye to some things. 
But I don't see that settlement lasting for long.

[Costin_Razvan]

What? Bigger than any medieval European city except Constantinople and maybe Cordoba? Paris had less than a hundred thousand, London was smaller still. I don't see Ferelden as a dominantly urbanized culture--that takes a very sophisticated trade network like the Roman Empire had.

They do have the imperial highway though. Seems to be the main trade route in Fereldan ( and actually all of Thedas ).



My reasoning for the high population in cities is based upon the fact that until 200 years ago Fereldan was made up of City States ( Teryns ) that waged constant war among one another, which would mean a higher concentration of people in cities for protection.

[Befit]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Have you ever gone through military training? They don't hold your hand and tell you your special. They breakdown your old personality to be replaced with a harder, meaner, more efficient one. so yeah they gotta hurt the trainee's feelings

Yeah, you know what? That's great. How, exactly, does telling him that the Dalish believe that those who live in the city aren't real elves (or even the fact that they believe it) not count as belittling or help to train him? They don't respect the city elves, realize what they go through, or even really care. Writing off an entire group of your people because they aren't wanders like them seems a bit further than trying to toughen one guy up.

Because it will make him fight harder. He will see that he was missing out on elven history, elven culture. He will see that he was never beneath a human by birth but only because they accepted it.

[maxernst]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I don't think Ferelden has more than a couple of hundred thousand inhabitants. Cross reference with places that have similar conditions during the medieval era, Scotland and Scandinavia. None of then had any big populations at all.

I'd wager at 500 000 myself.

I guess I'm basing my guesses more on England than Scotland.  Half a million is reasonable for Scotland, but I don't think of Ferelden as that rugged and infertile.