223 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Then people will contract marriages on their own.

Royal breeding program?  Sheesh.

Most states and nations don't recognize non-certified marriages, and in earlier socieites the idea of living with a paramore without marrying was considered taboo. It could also land you in certain penalties, like having your child removed.

'Royal breeding program' is misleading, as even you must admit: there is no tracing of geneologies, no need for approval for any other match. There's but one restriction, and that's marriage between two elves.

Well, I'm curious how marriages are handled right now. Are licenses required or is it just a Chantry sister who performs the ceremony? You could always institute licenses to make the marriage "legal." If you're denying it though and the Chantry is still performing elven-elven ceremonies, are you willing to fight the Chantry?

[Dean_the_Young]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
And that plan is never going to work.

Ten minutes after it gets announced there is going to mobs, and with days active violence against the crown.

Besides the hyperbole about mobilization, let's consider who exactly is going to be part of these mobs.

Not humans, because it doesn't force anything on them.

Not elves already married, because they're, again, already married.

The only part of the population is of the young elves who have not already married/don't get married by the time the proclemation goes into affect. Not only is that a small part of the population, and not only is a weak part of the population, it's also a part of the population that has the best part coping with the rule-change.

Also many humans who are going to not want to marry elves or vice versa would side against this.

If humans don't want to marry elves, they don't have to mary elves. And if elves don't want to marry humans, they don't have to marry humans.

[Dean_the_Young]

Monica21 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Then people will contract marriages on their own.

Royal breeding program?  Sheesh.

Most states and nations don't recognize non-certified marriages, and in earlier socieites the idea of living with a paramore without marrying was considered taboo. It could also land you in certain penalties, like having your child removed.

'Royal breeding program' is misleading, as even you must admit: there is no tracing of geneologies, no need for approval for any other match. There's but one restriction, and that's marriage between two elves.

Well, I'm curious how marriages are handled right now. Are licenses required or is it just a Chantry sister who performs the ceremony? You could always institute licenses to make the marriage "legal." If you're denying it though and the Chantry is still performing elven-elven ceremonies, are you willing to fight the Chantry?

By the City Elf origin, even the Elven Chantry can't marry city elfs: they have to get a minister from the human side.

[Giggles_Manically]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
And that plan is never going to work.

Ten minutes after it gets announced there is going to mobs, and with days active violence against the crown.

Besides the hyperbole about mobilization, let's consider who exactly is going to be part of these mobs.

Not humans, because it doesn't force anything on them.

Not elves already married, because they're, again, already married.

The only part of the population is of the young elves who have not already married/don't get married by the time the proclemation goes into affect. Not only is that a small part of the population, and not only is a weak part of the population, it's also a part of the population that has the best part coping with the rule-change.

Also many humans who are going to not want to marry elves or vice versa would side against this.

If humans don't want to marry elves, they don't have to mary elves. And if elves don't want to marry humans, they don't have to marry humans.

Even if by some miracle you can keep this going and not deal with violence and hatred getting worse answer this.
How will you deal with people who marry in secret then? Kill them, deport them, force them to marry someone else?
Treating one group like that is going to create many issues down the line and in the long run do more harm than good.

[Monica21]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Then people will contract marriages on their own.

Royal breeding program?  Sheesh.

Most states and nations don't recognize non-certified marriages, and in earlier socieites the idea of living with a paramore without marrying was considered taboo. It could also land you in certain penalties, like having your child removed.

'Royal breeding program' is misleading, as even you must admit: there is no tracing of geneologies, no need for approval for any other match. There's but one restriction, and that's marriage between two elves.

Well, I'm curious how marriages are handled right now. Are licenses required or is it just a Chantry sister who performs the ceremony? You could always institute licenses to make the marriage "legal." If you're denying it though and the Chantry is still performing elven-elven ceremonies, are you willing to fight the Chantry?

By the City Elf origin, even the Elven Chantry can't marry city elfs: they have to get a minister from the human side.

Not my point. The Chantry has already approved elven-elven marriages, even if they have to have a human to perform it. You don't have authority over the Chantry.

[Dean_the_Young]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Even if by some miracle you can keep this going and not deal with violence and hatred getting worse answer this.

How will you deal with people who marry in secret then? Kill them, deport them, force them to marry someone else?

Fine them, break the marriage (well, just check back and see if they're still living together later, since they aren't married in the law), and send any children to a royal orphanage, where they'll grow up to be free civil servants or somewhat along those lines.

No one is going to be beheaded, deported, or forced to be raped by anyone else.

Marriage is hardly mandatory, and I'm quite confused where anyone is getting the idea that it is, or that your particular spouse has to be approved past anything but not having pointy ears.

Treating one group like that is going to create many issues down the line and in the long run do more harm than good.

Down the line, there will be no more elves to be hating it, or at least so few that their hate is largely irrelevant.  Elves are already second-class citizens, and this medieval-mindset plan is a way to remove that problem in the future. It goes hand in hand with the other reforms I mentioned that Cousland would want.


(Well, besides outside elves and Dalish, but they aren't part of Ferelden anyway.)

[Dean_the_Young]

Monica21 wrote...
Not my point. The Chantry has already approved elven-elven marriages, even if they have to have a human to perform it. You don't have authority over the Chantry.

The Crown already has enough to say which Chantry can marry them at all, so yes, the Crown does have authority over the Chantry.

[Addai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Then people will contract marriages on their own.

Royal breeding program?  Sheesh.

Most states and nations don't recognize non-certified marriages, and in earlier socieites the idea of living with a paramore without marrying was considered taboo. It could also land you in certain penalties, like having your child removed.

'Royal breeding program' is misleading, as even you must admit: there is no tracing of geneologies, no need for approval for any other match. There's but one restriction, and that's marriage between two elves.

Well, I'm curious how marriages are handled right now. Are licenses required or is it just a Chantry sister who performs the ceremony? You could always institute licenses to make the marriage "legal." If you're denying it though and the Chantry is still performing elven-elven ceremonies, are you willing to fight the Chantry?

By the City Elf origin, even the Elven Chantry can't marry city elfs: they have to get a minister from the human side.

There is no such thing as an elven chantry.  There is no chantry in the alienage.  The CE father says that he's gotten the proper paperwork from the chantry, and Soris mentions that there is only one priestess who dares come out to the alienage to perform marriages.  So sure, if you wanted to be a complete bastard, you could probably get the Chantry to agree to deny elves marriage licenses.  But inter-elven marriage is so ingrained in alienage culture that elves would simply stop seeking Chantry approval and would marry without official recognition.  Meanwhile, not a lot of humans appear eager to marry elves.  So this idea is a non-starter, besides being heinous.

[Costin_Razvan]

The elves have arranged marriages though, as is pointed out quite clearly in the origin.

[Giggles_Manically]

Governments are unable to enforce something at this level.

It does not work and only causes severe problems later on.

[ejoslin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
And that plan is never going to work.

Ten minutes after it gets announced there is going to mobs, and with days active violence against the crown.

Besides the hyperbole about mobilization, let's consider who exactly is going to be part of these mobs.

Not humans, because it doesn't force anything on them.

Not elves already married, because they're, again, already married.

The only part of the population is of the young elves who have not already married/don't get married by the time the proclemation goes into affect. Not only is that a small part of the population, and not only is a weak part of the population, it's also a part of the population that has the best part coping with the rule-change.

Also many humans who are going to not want to marry elves or vice versa would side against this.

If humans don't want to marry elves, they don't have to mary elves. And if elves don't want to marry humans, they don't have to marry humans.

You have this assumption that the Bannorn and Chantry and Queen would agree to this.  They may, but then again, many may be appalled by it.  Elves live in places other than Alienages (even after the lockdown, you see elves in various places, though far fewer than humans of course).  Elves are needed for labor, and you want them working your farms, cleaning your house, enforcing your shady dealings (yes, you see a few elves in game which do this), not revolting.

The prince-consort of Ferelden is not an absolute authority.  And many people, even evil bastards, try to maintain at least a facade of civility.  You'll find, when something truly repugnant is introduced, even people who normally wouldn't care about the people in question would protest, because NO one would want to be seen as supporting that.  

[Costin_Razvan]

This thread was started under the assumption you were the Queen/King, not the consort to one. So your point is null on that regard.



I wouldn't place muck stock on the Bannorn or Chantry. Give them the right deals and it will be done. Also there is no mention whatsoever that elves work on farms, so you are just speculating that they are used for labor when in fact in game it is told that elves have trouble finding jobs as it is. In the aftermath of the Blight finding jobs like that would actually be HARDER not easier ( as people seem to think ).



Still, the idea seems bad for a number of reasons: Bad reputation with the Dalish, they would be against it on principle alone.



Bad rep with the commoners. They sure as hell don't want to marry elves.



I just can't imagine this working better then my proposed idea of selling them into slavery.

[ejoslin]

You're right -- I am assuming they were farm labor; trying to remember why I got that idea. I was also sticking with the in-game limitation of being the consort. But yeh, most non-mage elves you saw were servants or criminals or drunks, with the criminals having by far the most respect and freedom.



I actually do believe that the bannorn would balk at an idea like that being done openly. The bannorn seemed to not like it that there was slavery going on. The Chantry does seem to tolerate slavery, at least in Antiva and Rivain, but a royal breeding program is a bit more repugnant than that.

[Monica21]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Not my point. The Chantry has already approved elven-elven marriages, even if they have to have a human to perform it. You don't have authority over the Chantry.

The Crown already has enough to say which Chantry can marry them at all, so yes, the Crown does have authority over the Chantry.

If the Chantry is based in Val Royeaux, how do you figure the Ferelden governement has authority over it? We've already been told by Gaider that the Mage boon didn't happen because the Chantry refused it. They are different situations, but they are still situations that require the consent of the Chantry.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The elves have arranged marriages though, as is pointed out quite clearly in the origin.

Arranged by their own people, and part of the social system that enforces inter-elven marriage.  This is a custom they hold to strongly and are not going to give up lightly.

[Costin_Razvan]

Arranged by their own people, and part of the social system that enforces inter-elven marriage. This is a custom they hold to strongly and are not going to give up lightly.

True enough. Though I don't see the elves in ANY position to start a rebellion. Most humans utterly hate them and it is easy to control in their Alienages. Seriously, archers on the walls surrounding them to snipe out elven leaders and just close the gates with your guards, then starve them out. Problem solved.

[eucatastrophe]

Haven't read this thread, but I'd provide equal opportunities for them.

Birth shouldn't determine one's place in life, actions should.

Of course, getting the social norms reworked would take generations.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Arranged by their own people, and part of the social system that enforces inter-elven marriage. This is a custom they hold to strongly and are not going to give up lightly.

True enough. Though I don't see the elves in ANY position to start a rebellion. Most humans utterly hate them and it is easy to control in their Alienages. Seriously, archers on the walls surrounding them to snipe out elven leaders and just close the gates with your guards, then starve them out. Problem solved.

Or not, in an medieval setting starting disease in one area can cause problems.
The build up of corpses, garbage, etc. would cause lots of issues. Not to mention cause a reek that could make people flee denerim.

Read up on what the Black Plauge was like in London or Paris to see what this would entail. While not on the same scale sealing off a densely populated part of a city, with no sanitation is just asking for trouble.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 12 septembre 2010 - 12:43 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Giggles: The original post was in reference of how to deal with a "rebellion." Wasn't a plan to just kill them all.

To kill them, after a few weeks of starvation I would start a fire. In game the Alienage is surrounded by a moat, so the chance of it spreading to the rest of Denerim is nil and with a fire you eliminate all those diseased corpses.

 Haven't read this thread, but I'd provide equal opportunities for them. 

Birth shouldn't determine one's place in life, actions should.

Of course, getting the social norms reworked would take generations.  

That's a nice a plan, in theory. But in practice it would not work. In my country we have a similar problem with gipsies, and while I also feel that actions should determine one's place in life I KNOW ( as do many people in my country ) that if they were given equal chances they would abuse the **** out of it, and that would make the situation FAR worse then it is.

I still maintain that slavery is a better option.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 septembre 2010 - 12:54 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Giggles: The original post was in reference of how to deal with a "rebellion." Wasn't a plan to just kill them all.

To kill them, after a few weeks of starvation I would start a fire. In game the Alienage is surrounded by a moat, so the chance of it spreading to the rest of Denerim is nil and with a fire you eliminate all those diseased corpses.

Well thats one way to stave off problems I guess.

The real issue is how stupied people get about race really, but no amout of government decrees can fix racism or stupidity. I think that at the end of the game there is a chance for things to get better but people have to reach for it when fixing the country after the blight.

Also I think that many humans are to blame for this as well, just like many high caste dwarves are to blame. Tradition says alot of things but it really screws stuff up. This is mainly the reason I always pick Bhelen and have Hardened Alistair marry Anora. Hopefully Fereldan can change with this chance.

Or I can be deluding myself into thinking it can happen. What with people being people and all.

[Costin_Razvan]

Racism is still a problem even today, a very big one. I honestly do not believe it is one that can be fixed in a medieval setting.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Then people will contract marriages on their own.

Royal breeding program?  Sheesh.

Most states and nations don't recognize non-certified marriages, and in earlier socieites the idea of living with a paramore without marrying was considered taboo. It could also land you in certain penalties, like having your child removed.

'Royal breeding program' is misleading, as even you must admit: there is no tracing of geneologies, no need for approval for any other match. There's but one restriction, and that's marriage between two elves.

Well, I'm curious how marriages are handled right now. Are licenses required or is it just a Chantry sister who performs the ceremony? You could always institute licenses to make the marriage "legal." If you're denying it though and the Chantry is still performing elven-elven ceremonies, are you willing to fight the Chantry?

(husband posting)

I doubt that there are any marriage licences that is a modern secular state thing.    It would be seen as a sacrament or customary act between two families.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 septembre 2010 - 01:06 .

[eucatastrophe]

That's a nice a plan, in theory. But in practice it would not work. In
my country we have a similar problem with gipsies, and while I also feel
that actions should determine one's place in life I KNOW ( as do many
people in my country ) that if they were given equal chances they would
abuse the **** out of it, and that would make the situation FAR worse
then it is.

I still maintain that slavery is a better option.

That's interesting and somewhat true so I cannot fully disagree with you. My ancestry is Asian Indian and while I abhor the Caste system, the reality is that people are people and they abuse the priviledges the national government gives them (from what my parents tell me, for isntance it's harder to get into good schools if you come from a "better" caste, and the local governments there are filled with regional thugs who coem from the wrong side of the track. Kind of like the Jharvia chick, but imagine her having a seat in the Assembly ).

A crook will still be a crook  whether he is from a "lower" status (elves, gypsies, etc) or if he is the son of a king. 

Anyways, back to the topic, I think that Slavery being the ONLY option isn't something I can agree to, sorry  
I definitely think that whatever I would do (f I were the leader of Ferelden), I'd do very slowly. Laws don't change people's hearts or beliefs. If you're familiar with American history, then allow me to reference the chaos of the Reconstruction Era

I don't know how well it would work in the Medieval setting that Thedas is, but education seems to be key for both humans and elves. Humans would be taught the new way of thought (birth doesn't determine your life - the people of Thedas are somewhat familiar of this when it's within their species; eg. Loghain, Ser Cauthrien - and that the Elves aren't second class) and Elves would be given better opportunities that are shared by their human counterparts.

Strangely enough, I think the Tevinter model is slightly superior to the Ferelden model though slavery and being able to treat Elves like guinea pigs is despicable.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Racism is still a problem even today, a very big one. I honestly do not believe it is one that can be fixed in a medieval setting.

I know that. Spending a summer with very racist grandparents is an eye open for sure.

I was more trying to point out that the real issue that underlies the whole debate is racism. Not that it can be fixed, people being people ya know. Which is why I liked Bhelen's slide alot.

For some reason it reminded me of SW EP 4 A new hope. I can so imagine Bhelen saying "The last remenants of the old assembly have been swept away". With Alistair AND Anroa working towards a better future as well there is some hope that Fereldan can get at least a little better.

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...
There is no such thing as an elven chantry.  There is no chantry in the alienage.  The CE father says that he's gotten the proper paperwork from the chantry, and Soris mentions that there is only one priestess who dares come out to the alienage to perform marriages.

Your city-elf can also ask why no elven priestess will do it on their own, and the answer is that zip can.

  So sure, if you wanted to be a complete bastard, you could probably get the Chantry to agree to deny elves marriage licenses.  But inter-elven marriage is so ingrained in alienage culture that elves would simply stop seeking Chantry approval and would marry without official recognition.

And summarily get fined for it, presumably. If there's one thing, fortunately and unfortunately, that China has proved, it's that a child-birth rate limitation can be enforced.

Meanwhile, not a lot of humans appear eager to marry elves.  So this idea is a non-starter, besides being heinous.

Whether or not a lot of humans want to marry elves isn't the issue. Most humans don't want to marry most humans either, and for far more mundane reasons than race.

Elves are not, however, considered unattractive.

As for heinious, it's far from the worst thing Ferelden's done, and quite a bit better in many respects than what it's doing currently. (You know, the whole official second-class citizen thing.) It's a part of a mixed policy bag.