223 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

Using the One Child Policy is not a good example for what you are proposing.



In China the government is good enough to be able to enforce and oversee their decrees put into effect. Also many people are willing to help the state in this measure. and its not a very harsh thing because it helps both poor famalies and the whole country.



Your plan is something that a) Most Alienage elves would hate and not agree to Many humans would not be willing to do. So in effect no marriages. Also you have to realize that Ferelden is a back water with no education it cant oversee this well nor can it actually police this decree. Also how many nobles in the Bannorn would support something like this? If even a few of the bigger ones start a stink then you are in trouble and are going to have a hard time dealing with this.



As another point if even a few Banns, or Arls, or a Teyrn did not agree to this then you arent controling all of Ferelden, just a patchwork of places that may agree with you. Once the distance is increased with no rapid communications put in place then you lose cohesion in that regard.



Also what happens if a Bann or two says no to this then? Assemble the armies and squash them, force them to comply? That wont work either. There are far to many iffs and potential downfalls for this to work. Another thing to be concerned about is that people are corrupt and some humans you do recruit will be racist and set up bad things or start robbing people, or selling elves off if some human finds her pretty. There is no easy way to enforce this, just look at history and see what happens. Revolts, Civil War, Violence, Hatred, and destruction. The belief that you can control one group or breed them out saw empires crumble from the damage it does, and leaves so much hatred that even centuries cant erase it.



What does work, is education and slowly increasing awareness. If people are all raised to believe that all are equal and your race has no bearing than things will change. It will take time but it did take hold in many nations and saw the old views die out in some generations. Just look at what happened in North America, yes there is still hatred present but miniorities and ethnicity dont have nearly the sway they once held.

[Dean_the_Young]

ejoslin wrote...

You have this assumption that the Bannorn and Chantry and Queen would agree to this.  They may, but then again, many may be appalled by it.

Where, pray tell, do the elves actually have friends in high places? High enough to matter?

]Elves live in places other than Alienages (even after the lockdown, you see elves in various places, though far fewer than humans of course).  Elves are needed for labor, and you want them working your farms, cleaning your house, enforcing your shady dealings (yes, you see a few elves in game which do this), not revolting.[

The Ferelden nobility is going to be far more appaled by the other
reforms giving elves actual, you know, rights, than on a forward ban on
elf-elf marriages (limiting one that just applies to a certain number of elves).

Elves aren't necessary for labor: the poor humans can do it as well. Infact, simply thinking 'elves = menial labor' is a large part of the problem that Couseland here wants to stop by breaking the caste/class system. When elves have human children, their families won't be bound to that, but they'll still be the descendants and can still share the culture (if they want: elves are already giving it up anyway at this point) but they will at least have a chance to do something with their lives besides join suicidal orders of warriors for an ounce of respect.

The prince-consort of Ferelden is not an absolute authority. And many people, even evil bastards, try to maintain at least a facade of civility. 

Towards the elves? Not really. Besides, the prince-consort is also the Chancellor: two positions of political influence and sway, and in no way was civility ever abandoned.

You'll find, when something truly repugnant is introduced, even people who normally wouldn't care about the people in question would protest, because NO one would want to be seen as supporting that.  

This is only repugnant to people who believe that elves having second-class elven babies with elves is vitally important and morally dominating.

Now, that's a position to take... but then Grey Wardens rarely take morally dominating positions. This Cousland, on the other hand, takes it a different route of what's best: humans and elves aren't so different, but people get fixated on the ears and so entire generations of descendants are forced into second-class citizenship and crammed into ghettos and sold as slaves for war chests. This is a Bad Thing, and wouldn't be tolerated if they were human.

Now, the thing is, elves and humans can connect, and happily. Sweet, sweet Ionia proved that quite well, and other cases pop up as well in which humans and elves can be, Maker forbid, friends. And for all his jaded cynicism, Cousland believes if the elves actually just got out of the alienage and worked and lived with humans, both sides would find eachother much more tolerable (and attractive). Hence the mobility reforms: if elf-elf action is really that important to an elf, they are free to go to the Dalish and actual elven culture to birth elf children that won't be second-class servants.

The marriage ban is really just a tool to force the elves to look outside the alienage and eachother if they intend to stay in Ferelden. It isn't intended, nor does it need to, be universally sucessful device. But marriage is a social institution that is important for people to get along in life and advance, and preventing it in one respect pushes more people to the rest (or go without, which has the same outcome). As long as that direction isn't more alien

And, of course, an implementation of it comes with a lot of riders that should be very obvious. It doesn't break existing marriages should go without saying, so elves currently married don't have to worry. It has a period before it takes effect (so the system can be set up), which also gives those alienages time to set up what last minute marriages they want to, which I expect will include a disturbing number of tweens.

The only people affected by the ban are elves too young to be marrying and having kids now. The first results won't be felt for decades, really... which is more than enough time for elves to start dispersing to the countryside and rest of their cities and mingling with humans. At which point, elven-human pairings are more reasonable, and the natural occurance of elven-elven pairings are rarer. But with each generation, fewer elf-elfs will occur, and more elf-humans, which produce humans which will mean even fewer over-all elf-elfs.

Now, of course, people have been saying 'you can't enforce it universally.' We can't enforce anything everywhere. But then, we don't need to. Elven children are rather distinctive. All we need to do is change the demographic sway, which is already permanently tilted against elves. Fines can deter couples who make reasonable life-decision planning, while the royal orphanages which raise and teach (and supervise) the illegal elven children in humane ways for the benefit of everyone. Elves who really don't like the system, again, can leave, taking their children with them.

It isn't nice to the elven children-turn-teenagers who really want to marry that elven childhood sweetheart and then live in a Ferelden that treats them as second-class. It isn't moral by modern standards, but then this isn't a modern setting. It does, however, remove the elven population as the undercaste of Ferelden, and gives their descendants at least some hope of social mobility equal to the humans in the next several hundred years.

Aedan is a Grey Warden, not an American with funny clothes. He sees the elven question as permanently bad for both the elves and humans, and this is a way of removing the elves as second-class citizens without killing anyone and affecting only a relatively few people. Given that this Aedan also kept the Anvil of the Void, sided with Bhelen, and sided with the Werewolves, this is one of the gentlest things he's come with, and he isn't being made Hero of Ferelden for this one.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:24 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Monica21 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Not my point. The Chantry has already approved elven-elven marriages, even if they have to have a human to perform it. You don't have authority over the Chantry.

The Crown already has enough to say which Chantry can marry them at all, so yes, the Crown does have authority over the Chantry.

If the Chantry is based in Val Royeaux, how do you figure the Ferelden governement has authority over it? We've already been told by Gaider that the Mage boon didn't happen because the Chantry refused it. They are different situations, but they are still situations that require the consent of the Chantry.

How does any government have influence over the catholic churches in their country? They do, and the church goers and preachers are also from that country, not Italy. I hate to invoke Godwin, but That Man cut a deal with the Catholic Church all the way from Germany.

[Addai]

What you are essentially saying is that being elven is permanently bad. So let's breed the elvishness out of them, rather than have humans change their racist attitudes. It's not only repugnant, it's a cop-out. And you honestly believe that people will be grateful for you telling them who they can and can't marry? Any people, let alone people who already have a strong social custom of intermarriage only with elves? Hehe. Like I said, enjoy your rebellion.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:27 .

[Addai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
There is no such thing as an elven chantry.  There is no chantry in the alienage.  The CE father says that he's gotten the proper paperwork from the chantry, and Soris mentions that there is only one priestess who dares come out to the alienage to perform marriages.

Your city-elf can also ask why no elven priestess will do it on their own, and the answer is that zip can.

Zip can??

Elves are not, however, considered unattractive.

So ask yourself why more marriages aren't happening naturally.

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

What you are essentially saying is that being elven is permanently bad. So let's breed the elvishness out of them, rather than have humans change their racist attitudes. It's not only repugnant, it's a cop-out. And you honestly believe that people will be grateful for you telling them who they can and can't marry? Any people, let alone people who already have a strong social custom of intermarriage only with elves? Hehe. Like I said, enjoy your rebellion.

Or the multiple assassination attempts on your life.
Or the number of people in the Bannorn who may not go along with this.
Or the long term issues that this monster can giver birth to.
Or the having your legend become that of a monster to little children for a long while.

Or you know just generally trying to do the same brain-dead move that the Mughal dynasty did in India. Here is a hint it didnt end well, and still is a big bone of conention centuries later.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Arranged by their own people, and part of the social system that enforces inter-elven marriage. This is a custom they hold to strongly and are not going to give up lightly.

True enough. Though I don't see the elves in ANY position to start a rebellion. Most humans utterly hate them and it is easy to control in their Alienages. Seriously, archers on the walls surrounding them to snipe out elven leaders and just close the gates with your guards, then starve them out. Problem solved.

Well, you're right- genocide is always an option I suppose.

Short of that, I'd like to see anyone try to enforce such a draconian policy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Using the One Child Policy is not a good example for what you are proposing.

In China the government is good enough to be able to enforce and oversee their decrees put into effect. Also many people are willing to help the state in this measure. and its not a very harsh thing because it helps both poor famalies and the whole country.

Your plan is something that a) Most Alienage elves would hate and not agree to Many humans would not be willing to do. So in effect no marriages. Also you have to realize that Ferelden is a back water with no education it cant oversee this well nor can it actually police this decree. Also how many nobles in the Bannorn would support something like this? If even a few of the bigger ones start a stink then you are in trouble and are going to have a hard time dealing with this.

a)The Alienage elves agreement doesn't really matter in Ferelden in the first place. The next elven Bann of the Alienage is the first.

b)Many humans would not be willing to do what? Marry an elf? They don't have to. Humans can marry whoever they want. Dwarves can marry whoever they want. Not give elves marriage cirtificates and rights? Most of them don't do that either.

Why would the human Bannorn give a stink about elves not being allowed to marry elves, as opposed to the policy that elves can settle free lands? 

As another point if even a few Banns, or Arls, or a Teyrn did not agree to this then you arent controling all of Ferelden, just a patchwork of places that may agree with you. Once the distance is increased with no rapid communications put in place then you lose cohesion in that regard.

Not really, since most of the work goes on local level and is administrative.

Also what happens if a Bann or two says no to this then? Assemble the armies and squash them, force them to comply? That wont work either.

Banns say no to a lot of things they agree to do. That's never stopped policies before. The usual answer is 'beg, bribe, coerce.'

There are far to many iffs and potential downfalls for this to work. Another thing to be concerned about is that people are corrupt and some humans you do recruit will be racist and set up bad things or start robbing people, or selling elves off if some human finds her pretty.

How is this a created problem that does not already exist? Sex-slavery is already illegal in Ferelden.

I really, really don't think you grasp that no elf is forced to have a marriage at all.

There is no easy way to enforce this, just look at history and see what happens. Revolts, Civil War, Violence, Hatred, and destruction. The belief that you can control one group or breed them out saw empires crumble from the damage it does, and leaves so much hatred that even centuries cant erase it.

Please find me the historical example you're thinking of, because I'm having a hard time thinking of the Miscengenation Civil War or anything like that.

What does work, is education and slowly increasing awareness. If people are all raised to believe that all are equal and your race has no bearing than things will change. It will take time but it did take hold in many nations and saw the old views die out in some generations. Just look at what happened in North America, yes there is still hatred present but miniorities and ethnicity dont have nearly the sway they once held.

You do realize that most nations that came to term with their minorities did so because those minorities were either really, really small minorities, didn't look that different, or were largely wiped out? In north America, minority acceptance spread in proportion to how fast those minorities married into the populace. When a visually distinct group stayed in its own ghetto and married within the group, that group remained distinct and in the ****ter. When it married in and actually mingled with other groups, that's when it really got accepted.

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...

What you are essentially saying is that being elven is permanently bad.

In the context of Ferelden: yes, being elven is effectively permanently bad. It will, at the most idea rate, be bade for hundreds of years. It will remain bad as long as the Dalish exist as isolationist forest boodymen that fight and kill human settlers. It is a quest we have never seen completely settled in far more egaltarian, enlightened socieities than Ferelden.

But being visually elvish can stop in a single generation.

Cultural elvenism isn't the problem, and even if it weren't already being thrown away it could be kept without interference. Appearances matter in this reform.

So let's breed the elvishness out of them, rather than have humans change their racist attitudes. It's not only repugnant, it's a cop-out.

Cop-in, actually: it's not just human racist attitudes, but elven.

If we had your way and all racist attitudes left the scene immediately, elvishness would still be bred out, simply because for every mating between a human and an elvish will make the percentage of elves smaller. The elven race can only exist in separation with the humans.

That said...


You. Cut that **** out and calm down. This isn't you and me. This is a
Cousland, a human nobleman born in the place and time of Ferelden, not
2010 Western World. If you play your Dalish or Dwarf or Couseland as a Westerner in funny clothing, great. But I'm not.

Get a hold of yourself and stop personalizing it. If you want to have a reasonable argument over how practical or reasonable this roleplay character's choice is, I'm all for it. If you're going to act like I, personally, am arguing all cats should be skinned alive, don't both replying.

And you honestly believe that people will be grateful for you telling them who they can and can't marry? Any people, let alone people who already have a strong social custom of intermarriage only with elves?

Since when did my Grey Warden need people to be grateful? He's noblesse oblige: it's for the greater good. Whether they like it or not, it's his evaluation.

Hehe. Like I said, enjoy your rebellion.

And we come back to who, exactly, is rebelling. The married parents who are only indirectly affected? The children affected? The children down in ten years, back

Calling it a rebellion and it being a rebellion are two different things.

Addai67 wrote...

Zip can??

Slang. They can't.

So ask yourself why more marriages aren't happening naturally.

Because elves are pretty much thrown into the Alienages by the humans, and kept there by the elven leaders. Cousland is attacking both ends.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:56 .

[Addai]

Cousland is a racist bastard. But yes, you're right, I can't discuss eugenicist policies with calm equanimity. Even in time and place, it's a dumb idea. Doesn't even take a rebellion- all it takes is one Zevran and your Cousland would be gone. For the greater good, of course.

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...

Cousland is a racist bastard. But yes, you're right, I can't discuss eugenicist policies with calm equanimity. Even in time and place, it's a dumb idea.

Historical eugenics was based on imaginary genetic differences, generally favored forced sterilization for lesser races, and was mandatory without any op-out. In this case, it's the very real fate and status of a race and all of their offspring, no sterilizations included, and there are opouts made available. Not simply available: made available. If you want to move out of the alienage or wherever to join the Dalish, they'll take you. (They won't take you back, but...)

As for racist, by your standards. By the standards of Ferelden, a man who wants human-elven relationships to be the norm is so far on the other side that it's the racists on both sides who would want to kill him. Forcing that change doesn't change that desire.

Doesn't even take a rebellion- all it takes is one Zevran and your Cousland would be gone. For the greater good, of course.

Why should Zevran care? He likes humans. And men. And doesn't bother with marriage. He didn't care that much when the Werewolves slaughtered the Dalish: he helped with it.

Or the Crows as well. Why do they care? Or, to rephrase, why should they turn around on their deal to not take more contracts on me?

Moreover, do explain why extending the doomed future of the elven race to prolong their existence as a lower caste is the greater good?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:08 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Dean you make me want to facepalm you know this?

Read up on the Mughal Dynasty and Aurangzeb in praticular if you want to see what policies like this do. Your insane belief that you can "breed out" a race is disgusting. No group in the history of the world has been able to do this. The Romans fought brutal rebellions when they tried to force their views and customs on both the Iceni in Briton and the Jewish people in Palestine. Guess what! Both groups fought them in a bitter series of battles and wars that claimed thousands of lives and weakend the empire.

The Mughals tried to convert Hindus, Sikhs and Jains. Tried and FAILED. When they tried to take from them they fought them as well, and guess what, because of this their armies were wasted and the empire collapsed as well.

In short taking rights from one group, and trying to change only them leads to a very bad end. EVERY SINGLE DAMN TIME.

Read a history book and check up on your facts before proposing something so braindead.
Then again what do I know its not like two years towards a history major, and a political science minor count for much right?

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Dean you make me want to facepalm you know this?

Read up on the Mughal Dynasty and Aurangzeb in praticular if you want to see what policies like this do. Your insane belief that you can "breed out" a race is disgusting. No group in the history of the world has been able to do this. The Romans fought brutal rebellions when they tried to force their views and customs on both the Iceni in Briton and the Jewish people in Palestine. Guess what! Both groups fought them in a bitter series of battles and wars that claimed thousands of lives and weakend the empire.

The Mughals tried to convert Hindus, Sikhs and Jains. Tried and FAILED. When they tried to take from them they fought them as well, and guess what, because of this their armies were wasted and the empire collapsed as well.

Giggles, you seem unaware of a very, very relevant piece of Dragon Age lore.

When an elf and a human have a child, that child is pure human.

Magic.


There are no genetic half-elfs in the Dragon Age universe. Once a human, all descendants are humans.

In the real world, such an idea would never work because it is impossible: genetics don't work that way. But in Dragon Age, they do. Just like in reality, casting crushing prison on me over the internet does precisely nothing.

For culture eradication, that isn't the goal here, so the repeated failures of it through human history actually just mitigate that non-argument.

In short taking rights from one group, and trying to change only them leads to a very bad end. EVERY SINGLE DAMN TIME.

When those rights are only temporarily reduced, however, the results can be much different.

And it's not as if all rights are being removed. Most elven rights are being expanded, and only one right in particular is being limited.

Read a history book and check up on your facts before proposing something so braindead.
Then again what do I know its not like two years towards a history major, and a political science minor count for much right?

So, what you're really saying is you can't even cling to a degree to explain your ignorance of game lore?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:24 .

[Addai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Cousland is a racist bastard. But yes, you're right, I can't discuss eugenicist policies with calm equanimity. Even in time and place, it's a dumb idea.

Historical eugenics was based on imaginary genetic differences, generally favored forced sterilization for lesser races, and was mandatory without any op-out. In this case, it's the very real fate and status of a race and all of their offspring, no sterilizations included, and there are opouts made available. Not simply available: made available. If you want to move out of the alienage or wherever to join the Dalish, they'll take you. (They won't take you back, but...)

As for racist, by your standards. By the standards of Ferelden, a man who wants human-elven relationships to be the norm is so far on the other side that it's the racists on both sides who would want to kill him. Forcing that change doesn't change that desire.

And this Cousland really thinks he's an enlightened being because he's forbidding elves to marry other elves?

The term eugenics is appropriate as a loose description of this.  Just pulling stuff off Wikipedia because I'm lazy: "Eugenics is 'the study of, or belief in, the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics)...'"  Negative traits like being elven in a human society.  "The practices engaged in by eugenicists involving violations of privacy, attacks on reputation, violations of the right to life, to found a family, to freedom from discrimination are all today classified as violations of human rights."  Italics mine.

I dunno, if you can't see that forbidding people to marry with their own kind- a very natural and innate thing even without the social custom- would lead to widespread resistance and unrest and simple disregard of the policy- then I don't know what more to say.  This discussion seems pretty absurd.

Doesn't even take a rebellion- all it takes is one Zevran and your Cousland would be gone. For the greater good, of course.

Why should Zevran care? He likes humans. And men. And doesn't bother with marriage. He didn't care that much when the Werewolves slaughtered the Dalish: he helped with it.

Or the Crows as well. Why do they care? Or, to rephrase, why should they turn around on their deal to not take more contracts on me?

I didn't mean Zevran personally, but one person able to do it or willing to pay for it.  As for the Crows' deal, you obviously haven't played Awakening.

Moreover, do explain why extending the doomed future of the elven race to prolong their existence as a lower caste is the greater good?

Doomed?  Says who?

Modifié par Addai67, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:25 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I know full well what happens to an offspring off a human and elf Dean.

Ive beaten the game 13 times to date.



That however does not change anything, you are still taking rights from elves, and creating a very bad situation. It changes nothing you are stealing rights from elves even if there children are humans.



What you think that because of your precious little laws that people are going to treat the child any better. The kid is going to get hate from both sides, dont be blind to that fact.



You are trying to put a little band aid a wound that is gaping and deep, and it will not work.

Then again why should I care if someone else wants to ignore things and think its cool to do the harsher things. Have fun then Dean I have better things to do than waste my time here.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...
And this Cousland really thinks he's an enlightened being because he's forbidding elves to marry other elves?

The term eugenics is appropriate as a loose description of this.  Just pulling stuff off Wikipedia because I'm lazy: "Eugenics is 'the study of, or belief in, the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics)...'"  Negative traits like being elven in a human society.  "The practices engaged in by eugenicists involving violations of privacy, attacks on reputation, violations of the right to life, to found a family, to freedom from discrimination are all today classified as violations of human rights."  Italics mine.

I dunno, if you can't see that forbidding people to marry with their own kind- a very natural and innate thing even without the social custom- would lead to widespread resistance and unrest and simple disregard of the policy- then I don't know what more to say.  This discussion seems pretty absurd.

I'm actually with Dean on this one, at least as far as the perspective goes. The mere idea of a right to life and even privacy are very much modern-day ideas. Distasteful as it may be, nothing in the game world or game lore requires that you submit to these ideals, or are even aware of them.

To be honest, I think the alienages are dying anyway. There are already elves intermarrying, and soon the Dalish will be the only ones left. Dean's proposal is swifter and harsher, but essentially accomplishes the same thing.

[ejoslin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Cousland is a racist bastard. But yes, you're right, I can't discuss eugenicist policies with calm equanimity. Even in time and place, it's a dumb idea.

Historical eugenics was based on imaginary genetic differences, generally favored forced sterilization for lesser races, and was mandatory without any op-out. In this case, it's the very real fate and status of a race and all of their offspring, no sterilizations included, and there are opouts made available. Not simply available: made available. If you want to move out of the alienage or wherever to join the Dalish, they'll take you. (They won't take you back, but...)

As for racist, by your standards. By the standards of Ferelden, a man who wants human-elven relationships to be the norm is so far on the other side that it's the racists on both sides who would want to kill him. Forcing that change doesn't change that desire.

Doesn't even take a rebellion- all it takes is one Zevran and your Cousland would be gone. For the greater good, of course.

Why should Zevran care? He likes humans. And men. And doesn't bother with marriage. He didn't care that much when the Werewolves slaughtered the Dalish: he helped with it.

Or the Crows as well. Why do they care? Or, to rephrase, why should they turn around on their deal to not take more contracts on me?

Moreover, do explain why extending the doomed future of the elven race to prolong their existence as a lower caste is the greater good?

Hmmm, ok, where to begin on THIS!  Let's correct some of your assumptions...

Zevran, you're wrong about.  He tries to talk the warden out of killing the Dalish.  Also, in his romance, he may end up proposing to the warden.  And he likes females, too.  So yeh, he may propose to an elven woman.  

The Bannorn does not like elves being sold into slavery -- they find it repellent.  You gain a vote at the landsmeet if you bring it up.  It is stated by at least one noble that elves are citizens.  

Hmmmm, and while it couldn't happen with you, you do know that there's a history of elves being lovers of the Kings of Ferelden, correct?  So yeh, it's not unreasonable to assume that other nobles have elven lovers and would actually very much care about what their lover thought, even though, for them, it would not be an issue.  

But I can tell you really like this idea, and most of us have our playthroughs that we really like.  Have fun with it @@

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:32 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...
And this Cousland really thinks he's an enlightened being because he's forbidding elves to marry other elves?

This Cousland doesn't even know what the term enlgithenment is supposed to mean in such a context.

What he does think, however, is that every child born from an elf and a human has a better chance in the world (and causes less problems for the kingdom) than one born from two elfs, and that keeping a permanent elven underclass is worse than the pains of going through it.

The term eugenics is appropriate as a loose description of this.  Just pulling stuff off Wikipedia because I'm lazy, but "Eugenics is 'the study of, or belief in, the possibility of
improving the qualities of the human species or a human population by
such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics)...'"  Negative traits like being elven in a human society.  "The practices engaged in by eugenicists involving violations of privacy,
attacks on reputation, violations of the right to life, to found a
family, to freedom from discrimination are all today classified as
violations of human rights."  Italics mine.

So... you italicized privacy (a right that doesn't exist in Ferelden), life (which is not being ended), and family (which is only restricted in part, not outright blocked, and has an open loophole).

Right. Eugenics is a loose description. Just like how the death of a family is loosely genocide.

I dunno, if you can't see that forbidding people to marry with their own kind- a very natural and innate thing even without the social custom- would lead to widespread resistance and unrest and simple disregard of the policy- then I don't know what more to say.  This discussion seems pretty absurd.

Any social restriction creates pressure: the key to governments handling it is having safety valves for the discontented. In this case, there are three: they can exit the system, they can marry outside the group, or they can cheat the system and risk being fined (which, while not great for the person, is not fatal and the child is not killed).

I didn't mean Zevran personally, but one person able to do it or willing to pay for it.  As for the Crows' deal, you obviously haven't played Awakening.

I have, and nothing suggests those crows weren't part of the one cell that still has it's sights on you.

Doomed?  Says who?

Demographics. In Dragon Age, there is no such thing as a mixed-breed elf.


What would inevitably happen in an actually equal civil-rights societiy is that elves would, as often or not, mate with humans. Their children would be humans. And their children would all be human. And so on.

Think of it mathematically. Take a hundred, fifty, or just ten coins, flip them, and consider all the heads as a elf-elf coupling, while every tails is an elf-human coupling. For every tail you flip, that coin is removed from the game. Each iteration of the game is one generation of elves.

Eventually, no matter how lucky you are, there is only one coin left. And then none.

And that's what happens in a socially-equal elf-human society.*

*The math is a bit off: it assumes that each head flip produces two elven children, keeping population stable, when in fact it could be more or less than two, and could be mixed.

If you want the elven race to exist indefinitely, you have to insure that at some point, a breeding population of elves is kept entirely separate from the humans, and never breaks that number. No humans allowed, and you would have to plan all the marriages to keep genetic diversity and avoid incest. All that to keep the elves alive.

Which, by your verdict, is eugenics.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

I'm actually with Dean on this one, at least as far as the perspective goes. The mere idea of a right to life and even privacy are very much modern-day ideas. Distasteful as it may be, nothing in the game world or game lore requires that you submit to these ideals, or are even aware of them.

To be honest, I think the alienages are dying anyway. There are already elves intermarrying, and soon the Dalish will be the only ones left. Dean's proposal is swifter and harsher, but essentially accomplishes the same thing.

Besides the fact that DA takes a more modern moral view on numerous things- say, the place of women in society- human (elven) nature is basically the same everywhere.  People marrying in their own kind, marrying their neighbors, is as innate as anything there is.

The alienages aren't dying or we wouldn't be talking about overcrowding.  You see lots of children in them.  Somehow it seems the elves manage to marry and reproduce, and at no lesser rate than their more privileged human neighbors.  Nor does there appear to be any natural trend of intermarriage with humans- not on any scale.

But since they're dying anyway, why not just skip the eugenics and go right to genocide?

[Dean_the_Young]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I know full well what happens to an offspring off a human and elf Dean.
Ive beaten the game 13 times to date.

That however does not change anything, you are still taking rights from elves, and creating a very bad situation. It changes nothing you are stealing rights from elves even if there children are humans.

Once the children are human, there are no restrictions on those children.

What you think that because of your precious little laws that people are going to treat the child any better. The kid is going to get hate from both sides, dont be blind to that fact.

Having lived around minorities in a state historically unfriendly to them, I can say that minorities who look no different have a lot better lot, and a much better way of getting away from it, than those who are visually distinct.

You are trying to put a little band aid a wound that is gaping and deep, and it will not work.

Better analogy wouldbe amputation.

Then again why should I care if someone else wants to ignore things and think its cool to do the harsher things. Have fun then Dean I have better things to do than waste my time here.

When did I ever say or suggest it was a cool thing to do?

Don't project.

[Dean_the_Young]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, ok, where to begin on THIS!  Let's correct some of your assumptions...

Zevran, you're wrong about.  He tries to talk the warden out of killing the Dalish.  Also, in his romance, he may end up proposing to the warden.  And he likes females, too.  So yeh, he may propose to an elven woman. 

Given that Zevran can be talked down and into killing the Dalish, it's rather clear how deep his commitment is. And Zevran's permiscuity for all races and genders was a point that he isn't bound just to the fate of the elvish.

The Bannorn does not like elves being sold into slavery -- they find it repellent.  You gain a vote at the landsmeet if you bring it up.  It is stated by at least one noble that elves are citizens. 

Yes, and? Second class citizen is still citizen, and this isn't slavery.

Hmmmm, and while it couldn't happen with you, you do know that there's a history of elves being lovers of the Kings of Ferelden, correct?  So yeh, it's not unreasonable to assume that other nobles have elven lovers and would actually very much care about what their lover thought, even though, for them, it would not be an issue. 

I can guarantee that every noble-elven lovechild was, in fact, human.

But I can tell you really like this idea, and most of us have our playthroughs that we really like.  Have fun with it @@

It's not so much the idea I like, but I dislike the nature of many people's replies and how they projected onto me.

You know, like you just did.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...
Besides the fact that DA takes a more modern moral view on numerous things- say, the place of women in society- human (elven) nature is basically the same everywhere.  People marrying in their own kind, marrying their neighbors, is as innate as anything there is.

The alienages aren't dying or we wouldn't be talking about overcrowding.  You see lots of children in them.  Somehow it seems the elves manage to marry and reproduce, and at no lesser rate than their more privileged human neighbors.  Nor does there appear to be any natural trend of intermarriage with humans- not on any scale.

But since they're dying anyway, why not just skip the eugenics and go right to genocide?

I don't see much in the game to inform me about the place of women in society. Women can own land and elect a ruler, but that doesn't make Ferelden enlightened. Ferelden is a bit more democratic politically, but it's still essentially feudal. Eamon was telling his king to divorce his wife because she couldn't produce an heir, and the king was going to do it. Doesn't seem very enlightened to me.

I didn't see "lots" of children in the alienage. I saw maybe four. The orphanage in Denerim was wiped out. Elves were killed during the riots and then the plague struck. Point being, I saw far fewer elves than humans.

You know, I didn't say anything condoning genocide. I said "the alienage elves will die out and the Dalish will be the only elves left." Please read what people post before jumping to conclusions about what they mean.

Modifié par Monica21, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:56 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...

Besides the fact that DA takes a more modern moral view on numerous things- say, the place of women in society- human (elven) nature is basically the same everywhere.  People marrying in their own kind, marrying their neighbors, is as innate as anything there is.

Most of the things Dragon-Age seems modern in is explained by normal reasons within the lore, not across-the-board enlightened thinking. The place in women, for example, comes both from that the Chantry is a Matriarchial religion (following, of course, a famous female power figure), and the extinction-event nature of the Blights (when leaving women to do nothing was not an option), and of course magic , which is gender-neutral. Thedas reflects other socieities when survival and victory depended on the inclusion of women into the militaries: they shortly had women in the power structure as well, and the barrier disappeared.

But such enlightenment is not universal or across the board. In Orlais, home of the Chantry, it is divine-right legal for Chevaliers to rape any commoner woman they wish.

The alienages aren't dying or we wouldn't be talking about overcrowding.  You see lots of children in them.  Somehow it seems the elves manage to marry and reproduce, and at no lesser rate than their more privileged human neighbors.  Nor does there appear to be any natural trend of intermarriage with humans- not on any scale.

Dying comes in a lot of fashions. Culturally, the alienages are just human slums: most of the Codex mention how each generation cares less and less about their culture and history. Given that elvenhood is one part genetics (for the elf) and two parts culture (for the livelyhood), the Elven Alienages are dying and being replaced by genetically-elven Fereldan slums.

But since they're dying anyway, why not just skip the eugenics and go right to genocide?

Because unnecessary killing for no reason is a very bad thing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
You know, I didn't say anything condoning genocide. I said "the alienage elves will die out and the Dalish will be the only elves left." Please read what people post before jumping to conclusions about what they mean.

Which is not exactly true. Elves have suffered many purges before and their population is still growing regardless. In fact as I said earlier, most purges probably happen because of population growth within the alienage that causes unrest. Purges have been used as a way of population control, which shows taht the elves are not decreasing in numbers.  

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
You know, I didn't say anything condoning genocide. I said "the alienage elves will die out and the Dalish will be the only elves left." Please read what people post before jumping to conclusions about what they mean.

Which is not exactly true. Elves have suffered many purges before and their population is still growing regardless. In fact as I said earlier, most purges probably happen because of population growth within the alienage that causes unrest. Purges have been used as a way of population control, which shows taht the elves are not decreasing in numbers.  

That would certainly change if elves got out of the alienage.