223 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

But such enlightenment is not universal or across the board. In Orlais, home of the Chantry, it is divine-right legal for Chevaliers to rape any commoner woman they wish.

And broadly speaking, Fereldans recognize the barbarity of the practice, as they also ban slavery.  Regardless, I'm not arguing for application of a modern idea.  I'm saying that within Fereldan society, you wouldn't be able to enforce such a policy IMO.  Even if the Landsmeet approved of it, the elves would not accept it.

Because unnecessary killing for no reason is a very bad thing.

It's not for no reason- it's for the same reasons you're using as justification for your PC's new, more creative form of oppression, i.e. eliminating the problem of a lower caste.

Modifié par Addai67, 12 septembre 2010 - 04:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That would certainly change if elves got out of the alienage.

If you can provide the security needed for them to feel safe doing so.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
You know, I didn't say anything condoning genocide. I said "the alienage elves will die out and the Dalish will be the only elves left." Please read what people post before jumping to conclusions about what they mean.

Which is not exactly true. Elves have suffered many purges before and their population is still growing regardless. In fact as I said earlier, most purges probably happen because of population growth within the alienage that causes unrest. Purges have been used as a way of population control, which shows taht the elves are not decreasing in numbers.  

Point taken. However, considering that successive generations of elves care less and less about being elven, and I can even point to Soris as an example since he marries a human, I'm not seeing much at the end of Origins to make me think the alienage elves will last much longer. They don't need a purging if they're willfully dying out.

Modifié par Monica21, 12 septembre 2010 - 04:11 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Addai67 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

But such enlightenment is not universal or across the board. In Orlais, home of the Chantry, it is divine-right legal for Chevaliers to rape any commoner woman they wish.

And broadly speaking, Fereldans recognize the barbarity of the practice, as they also ban slavery.  Regardless, I'm not arguing for application of a modern idea.  I'm saying that within Fereldan society, you wouldn't be able to enforce such a policy IMO.  Even if the Landsmeet approved of it, the elves would not accept it.

If the Landsmeet approve it, the Elves have to accept it in the end. They can threaten to riot about it, and they can riot about it, but even in a civil war during a blight the elves were put down hard. And elf riots gain them no friends outside the alienage.

Because unnecessary killing for no reason is a very bad thing.

It's not for no reason- it's for the same reasons you're using as justification for your PC's new, more creative form of oppression.

Oppression that includes the newfound freedom of movement and property ownership, emmegrate away if I don't like it, and reforms to actually protect me? At the cost of not being allowed to openly marry a certain band of women?

I'm fairly sure most oppressed peoples would jump at the chance. Possibly even many elves as well. It does call to question, however, what this form of oppression has in common with active genocide. (You know, the usual use of the word.)

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That would certainly change if elves got out of the alienage.

If you can provide the security needed for them to feel safe doing so.

A much more likely problem to deal with. Elven or part-elven units of the royal army (back from those military-for- better rights deal from earlier) strike me as a good compromise: where there are elven farmers and settlers, the garrison's job is to keep anti-elven tensions in check if they arise.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
Point taken. However, considering that successive generation of elves care less and less about being elven, and I can even point to Soris as an example since he marries a human, I'm not seeing much at the end of Origins to make me think the alienage elves will last much longer. They don't need a purging if they're willfully dying out.

Duncan does say that Alienage culture (while not really elven) was still quite strong. At that point, they are not really "elves" culturally. They are Alienage or City elves and that's their new culture.
As Sarethia  said: "They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere." "

I don't think Soris getting married to a human is representative of Alienage elves willfully wanting to die out, at least not in the short foreseeable future. If that should ever happen, then it will take a long time and won't be helped if humans don't improve their attitude towards them (a community that is hated is a comunity that cannot integrate). In other words, I don't see that happening for a very very long time. 
 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That would certainly change if elves got out of the alienage.

If you can provide the security needed for them to feel safe doing so.

A much more likely problem to deal with. Elven or part-elven units of the royal army (back from those military-for- better rights deal from earlier) strike me as a good compromise: where there are elven farmers and settlers, the garrison's job is to keep anti-elven tensions in check if they arise.

That might however divide the army from within and humans would see those elven units as not their royal army, but as an elven army in their own lands. That too might cause a lot of friction.
Might even instigate a rebellion, since you claimed that elves need weapons and training to mount a rebellion which you are now providing them.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Misread quote. Ignore!

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 12 septembre 2010 - 04:26 .

[ejoslin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, ok, where to begin on THIS!  Let's correct some of your assumptions...

Zevran, you're wrong about.  He tries to talk the warden out of killing the Dalish.  Also, in his romance, he may end up proposing to the warden.  And he likes females, too.  So yeh, he may propose to an elven woman. 

Given that Zevran can be talked down and into killing the Dalish, it's rather clear how deep his commitment is. And Zevran's permiscuity for all races and genders was a point that he isn't bound just to the fate of the elvish.

The Bannorn does not like elves being sold into slavery -- they find it repellent.  You gain a vote at the landsmeet if you bring it up.  It is stated by at least one noble that elves are citizens. 

Yes, and? Second class citizen is still citizen, and this isn't slavery.

Hmmmm, and while it couldn't happen with you, you do know that there's a history of elves being lovers of the Kings of Ferelden, correct?  So yeh, it's not unreasonable to assume that other nobles have elven lovers and would actually very much care about what their lover thought, even though, for them, it would not be an issue. 

I can guarantee that every noble-elven lovechild was, in fact, human.

But I can tell you really like this idea, and most of us have our playthroughs that we really like.  Have fun with it @@

It's not so much the idea I like, but I dislike the nature of many people's replies and how they projected onto me.

You know, like you just did.

Ok, first point.  You know that Oghren will kill his wife, right?  Doesn't mean he didn't love her, doesn't mean he felt no connection for her.  It means that when the warden gives a command, with only a couple of exceptions, the followers follow.  Zevran argues about it, and does not like it, but will do it.  But unless you have a high persuade skill, he disapproves, and if you talk to him about it later, he disapproves again, no matter what.

And as far as his promiscuity goes, I wasn't addressing that (by the time Origins rolls around, he's not being promiscuous any more).  You were wondering why he would be against that law.  I gave you a reason.  In the game, he proposes, and that can be to an elven woman.  That's just ONE reason.  No one likes to have their life controlled to that extent anyway.  And even if it weren't him, my guess is, someone has a relative in the Crows who would be willing to do a favor for them.

And me pointing out that royalty and most likely nobility have had elven lovers -- that was in response to you asking what elf had a friend in a high place.  I'd say, well, Katriel did, Fiona did...  And those are just the ones that we know about.  I'm sure there are more.  Yes, any offspring would be human, but again, NO one wants their lives dictated to the extent you're talking.  Even if it goes along with decisions they have made.

And when you bring up Eugenics and figure everyone will go along with it because elves are the "inferior" race so the nobility will all just be in line with it (though there is nothing in game to indicate that they would), you really SHOULD expect a negative response.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 septembre 2010 - 04:29 .

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Point taken. However, considering that successive generation of elves care less and less about being elven, and I can even point to Soris as an example since he marries a human, I'm not seeing much at the end of Origins to make me think the alienage elves will last much longer. They don't need a purging if they're willfully dying out.

Duncan does say that Alienage culture (while not really elven) was still quite strong. At that point, they are not really "elves" culturally. They are Alienage or City elves and that's their new culture.
As Sarethia  said: "They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere." "

I don't think Soris getting married to a human is representative of Alienage elves willfully wanting to die out, at least not in the short foreseeable future. If that should ever happen, then it will take a long time and won't be helped if humans don't improve their attitude towards them (a community that is hated is a comunity that cannot integrate). In other words, I don't see that happening for a very very long time. 
 

And the minion gets the smackdown again. I concede the point.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That would certainly change if elves got out of the alienage.

If you can provide the security needed for them to feel safe doing so.

A much more likely problem to deal with. Elven or part-elven units of the royal army (back from those military-for- better rights deal from earlier) strike me as a good compromise: where there are elven farmers and settlers, the garrison's job is to keep anti-elven tensions in check if they arise.

That might however divide the army from within and humans would see those elven units as not their royal army, but as an elven army in their own lands. That too might cause a lot of friction.
Might even instigate a rebellion, since you claimed that elves need weapons and training to mount a rebellion which you are now providing them.

They also need numbers, and those weapons and training in mass. That's a problem that competent supervision can oversee (including, among other things, not recruiting too many elves to handle), keeping the military arms in secure armories, and remembering that enough arms for a few elven/part-elven units isn't enough for a true rebellion.

In the American Civil War, all black Union regiments kept large parts of the South under control without launching another rebellion. Leadership by human officers, for example, mixed units, and a clear and public policy about the unacceptable nature of elven misaction (yes, an official double standard even) can go a long way towards keeping that under control.

Fear of an elven rebellion from those soldiers is, as with anything, possible, but unlikely. They don't have to be included in enough number to outweigh the rest of the army, and if there's one thing proven time and time again it's that the elves aren't capable of beating the humans here and now.

Infact, the reward/privelage scheme of the army can be scewed that the elves of the army are the most loyal, or have the most reason to be loyal to the Crown: a special exemption, for example, of the marriage ban. Not only does it provide a separation for that elf from the prime issue of concern, the presence of the wife with the army as a whole would temper the revolutionary fever of any husband who remembers the company his wife is in.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
And the minion gets the smackdown again. I concede the point.

Lol it's not like that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Dean. If done properly, it might work, yes.

[Dean_the_Young]

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, first point.  You know that Oghren will kill his wife, right?  Doesn't mean he didn't love her, doesn't mean he felt no connection for her.  It means that when the warden gives a command, with only a couple of exceptions, the followers follow.  Zevran argues about it, and does not like it, but will do it.  But unless you have a high persuade skill, he disapproves, and if you talk to him about it later, he disapproves again, no matter what.

It was, however, a strong sign that Oghren wouldn't kill me for killing her. Disapproval was hardly signs of assassination... but, as you already said, that issue is irrelevant now because you weren't saying Zevran would.

And, of course, an assassination attempt is just that. An attempt. Many of which have already been made on the Warden. Not a guarantee for success, or a reliable solution for repudiation, or even a guarantee of reversal if it was successful: just pause for a moment and think of how many contentious policies and programs were carried out with twice the conviction after the assassination of a leading figure?

And me pointing out that royalty and most likely nobility have had elven lovers -- that was in response to you asking what elf had a friend in a high place.  I'd say, well, Katriel did, Fiona did...  And those are just the ones that we know about.  I'm sure there are more.  Yes, any offspring would be human, but again, NO one wants their lives dictated to the extent you're talking.  Even if it goes along with decisions they have made.

Someone (or, usually, many someones) doesn't want much of what the Warden does, regardless of what you do. They usually result in a lot of coercion regardless, and with far more death than this.

I find myself skeptical that an elven lover in the dark counts as the elves having friends in high places willing and wanting to side with them in this. Friend enough to sleep with a pretty agreeable fetish: sure. Friend enough to care about the race (and even that the elf is that invested, considering he/she already sleeps with a human), not so much.

And when you bring up Eugenics and figure everyone will go along with it because elves are the "inferior" race so the nobility will all just be in line with it (though there is nothing in game to indicate that they would), you really SHOULD expect a negative response.  

I should not expect a negative response. I should not expect a positive response. I should only expect a response based on the cultural inclinations of the people towards the elves, which ranges from apathy to hostility on the part of humans, not sympathy.

Saying everyone has to go along with it implies that everyone has to do something or accept it. They don't. All it takes is a relatively few authority figures, who will do it because they either want to or because it's a job and royal authority and all that. The most everyone else has to be is apathetic, which is historically easy to arrange even if you are opposed to something.

Also, drop the square quotes: no one else in Thedas uses them when talking about the elves. Alienage Elves are a second-class race. Not a "second-class" race, as if it's disputed: they are, and everyone from the Dalish to the humans to the Alienage elves themselves know it. Some thing it's wrong, but they don't deny it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 septembre 2010 - 04:48 .

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
And the minion gets the smackdown again. I concede the point.

Lol it's not like that.

Hehe, I know. It's been a very long time since I've played a city elf though, so I don't remember much about that origin, and what I remember about city elves from codex entries don't give me anything to argue with. So, all my points are exhausted or refuted. And that's what it's like.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, it's been fun when it hasn't been aimed at me personally, but I'm heading out for the night. Night all, don't expect replies tomorrow.

And remember: killing is bad, eugenics is bad, and the Middle Ages are bad, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Night.(Actually, good morning in ten mins.)

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 septembre 2010 - 04:51 .

[ejoslin]

Just an additional FYI: second class != (necessarily) inferior. My quotes were deliberate and valid. Have a great night!

Edit: And yes, Eugenics happened -- that doesn't mean it would be tolerated in Thedas.  It's a subject that you may not get hits some people very close to home; I'm surprised you weren't expecting people to be negative about it.  Racial cleansing is a very charged subject.

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 septembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That would certainly change if elves got out of the alienage.

If you can provide the security needed for them to feel safe doing so.

A much more likely problem to deal with. Elven or part-elven units of the royal army (back from those military-for- better rights deal from earlier) strike me as a good compromise: where there are elven farmers and settlers, the garrison's job is to keep anti-elven tensions in check if they arise.

That might however divide the army from within and humans would see those elven units as not their royal army, but as an elven army in their own lands. That too might cause a lot of friction.
Might even instigate a rebellion, since you claimed that elves need weapons and training to mount a rebellion which you are now providing them.

The epilogue cards at the end of the game state all elves received high praise for their contributions in helping the country defend against the blight.  I think because of this they would be accepted into the military, therefore I disagree with your statement.  Oghren also has the chance on joining the King/Queens army.

All of my wardens make the city elves help defend their homes, even though I tell them to stay back.  I'm a Grey Warden and I don't turn down help whenever I find it.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 13 septembre 2010 - 05:25 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...
The epilogue cards at the end of the game state all elves received high praise for their contributions in helping the country defend against the blight.  I think because of this they would be accepted into the military, therefore I disagree with your statement.  Oghren also has the chance on joining the King/Queens army.

I was not arguing against that. I was arguing that creating all elven units and assigning them to garrisons to protect elven settlements might be a source of friction if not handled properly.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...
The epilogue cards at the end of the game state all elves received high praise for their contributions in helping the country defend against the blight.  I think because of this they would be accepted into the military, therefore I disagree with your statement.  Oghren also has the chance on joining the King/Queens army.

I was not arguing against that. I was arguing that creating all elven units and assigning them to garrisons to protect elven settlements might be a source of friction if not handled properly.

I'm sure as long as they have a trusted human leader at their command might help hold down the stress of a situtation this could cause.  The elves will happy it's other elves defending them, and humans that they will have a human leader as their commander.  This commander would have to be fully trustworthy. 

If Alistiar is King, I could see him using Zevran for this job.  I don't see Anora employing Zevran, unless it's in her bedroom.   Not sure she would go that low.  

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:08 .

[mousestalker]

If I understand Ferelden society, if Shianni or Cyrion becomes Bann, then they would be obliged to have soldiers. Under those circumstances, there would in fact be armed elves in Denerim.

[wkstrm]

Befit wrote...

Do you guys actually expect that just cuz you gave them equal rights that they are now truly equal in human eyes? The general population will still discriminate in various ways and do you expect the guard to believe what a knife ear tells them over a human? I say give land to the dalish and encourage the city elves to join thier brethren in true equality.

Encourage the city elfs to join the dalish, then make a pact with the werewolfs and let the werewolfs do your dirtywork. Then there's only the problem with the filthy dwarves left! I'd say seal the doors to their domains!



honestly, I have always hated elves and dwarves when it comes to fantasy games/books whatever.

[Greed1914]

Befit wrote...

Do you guys actually expect that just cuz you gave them equal rights that they are now truly equal in human eyes? The general population will still discriminate in various ways and do you expect the guard to believe what a knife ear tells them over a human? I say give land to the dalish and encourage the city elves to join thier brethren in true equality.

So you're solution would be to tell them to leave and be with people that look like them?  The Dalish and city elves wouldn't just get along because they have a similar appearance.  For instance, if you talk to Zevran, you'll find out that his mother was Dalish, but it doesn't matter because he grew up in Antiva.  Yes, you can give him Dalish gloves as a gift, but it's more about being like his mother's gloves than the fac that they're Dalish gloves.  He has more in common with the city elves than the Dalish.  Lanaya, the Zathrian's First in the Dalish camp, was resented because she was not originally of the Dalish and yet she was going to be a Keeper.  And Velanna from Awakening didn't care much for city elves because she found them cowardly.

I suspect they'd still have a lot of trouble since many Dalish would consider themselves superior.

Modifié par Greed1914, 13 septembre 2010 - 08:45 .

[Giggles_Manically]

wkstrm wrote...

Befit wrote...

Do you guys actually expect that just cuz you gave them equal rights that they are now truly equal in human eyes? The general population will still discriminate in various ways and do you expect the guard to believe what a knife ear tells them over a human? I say give land to the dalish and encourage the city elves to join thier brethren in true equality.

Encourage the city elfs to join the dalish, then make a pact with the werewolfs and let the werewolfs do your dirtywork. Then there's only the problem with the filthy dwarves left! I'd say seal the doors to their domains!



honestly, I have always hated elves and dwarves when it comes to fantasy games/books whatever.

HUH!
YOU HUMANS ARE ALL RACIST!