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Was this ending in WH the right choice? [spoiler removed]


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#51
Zjarcal

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@phaonica:

Morrigan's plan may indeed sound similar to what the Architect wanted, but that's really just making an assumption since we don't know anything else about Morrigan's plan other than it involves change. The Architect does reveal part of his plan in Awakening and we know the rest from "The Calling" (although "The Calling" should only be taken into consideration if we're metagaming).

That being said, considering what we know about Morrigan, she certainly isn't against making pragmatic decisions that would require certain sacrifices (she supports Avernus' "whatever it takes" philosophy and she's all for sacrificing the elves in the Alienage), so I'll give you the reason in saying that there is a decent chance that Morrigan's plan may result in something that won't be good for everyone.

If you don't trust her at all, then yes, I can see that as a somewhat logical way for a character to decide that it's better to stop her right there (I still don't agree with the decision, but I can see the logic behind it and find it to be a somewhat reasonable choice).

That being said, considering that character voluntarily accepted the DR in the first place (presumably solely to save her own life) without knowing much information about it and knowing she didn't trust Morrigan, she shares the blame with Morrigan for whatever the OGB may represent in the future. It seems unfair to "kill" Morrigan now that she's no longer an ally just because she's having regrets about doing the DR.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 11 septembre 2010 - 07:46 .


#52
hitorihanzo

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Blacklash93 wrote...

She falls back through the mirror, right? She doesn't die.

Flemeth is the real enemy and Morrigan will oppose her.


Exactly.

The Darkspawn / Archdemon from DA:O were a tad of misdirection.  They're not the real threat.  I believe that either Flemeth is possessed by one of the the Old Gods themselves (which is why she shapeshifted into a High Dragon, and why she's not like any other Abomination), or she's one of the Tevinter Mages that invaded the Black City and was corrupted, creating the Darkspawn.  Actually, I have no clue.  She could be the Maker, which is why the Child- basically an Old God, is needed to oppose her for all I know. 

I just know that I didn't kill Morrigan.  I left with her to raise the baby.  Wonder if that means the Hero of Ferelden is gone for good.

#53
drhys23

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i played my female warden this way: her and morrigan started off rivals in a sense, but as origins progressed and the warden, being a noble rogue, grew to appreciate morrigan's outlook on women and power. they became close, but when the time came for the final battle the warden could not force alistair into doing something he abhored. when morrigan left, the warden felt betrayed. she abandoned her friend when she had no further use for her and condemed her love to death. if morrigan really cared she would have found another way to make it work. she did find a way around the ring. at the very least she could have stayed to help. my warden harbored a great resentment toward her, so it was vengence from the begaining of witch hunt.

#54
TwistedComplex

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Blacklash93 wrote...

She falls back through the mirror, right? She doesn't die.

Flemeth is the real enemy and Morrigan will oppose her.

She saved you from the tower and helped you recover your health

Morrigan lied to you and ran off after she got what she wanted

Yeah.. Flemeth is evil and Morrigan is good right?

Modifié par TwistedComplex, 11 septembre 2010 - 10:46 .


#55
Shadow of Light Dragon

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TwistedComplex wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

She falls back through the mirror, right? She doesn't die.

Flemeth is the real enemy and Morrigan will oppose her.

She saved you from the tower and helped you recover your health

Morrigan lied to you and ran off after she got what she wanted

Yeah.. Flemeth is evil and Morrigan is good right?


I don't think Flemeth's actions were entirely altruistic. It was her plan to get the Old God Child, so she had a vested interest in rescuing the surviving Wardens and nursing them to health.

#56
Master Shiori

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Moondoggie wrote...

Forgetting that she is probably not dead etc etc. Having seen that ending (didn't do it myself) it was kinda strange they use the same sad music as when Duncan  dies. Maybe one of the good guys really did get offed.

Or i could just be proved wrong and Morrigan will come back to haunt me one day in a later DA since i let her walk away. :D


I honestly fail to see why anyone would want to kill her. She was a loyal compaion throughout Origins and the only point where she would abandon you is if you refuse her the Dark Ritual, which she warns you about anyway.
Her reaction to the Warden in Witch Hunt can hardly be called hostile and you have no idea what she plans to do and thus cannot judge if she's a threat or not (all her actions up to this point would suggest she isn't, at least not to you).

So killing her is entirely pointless and serves no purpose other than to give you a some perverse sense of satisfaction, which is only an illusion since we knw she'll be back in the future.

#57
phaonica

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First of all, I'm arguing from the perspective of someone who finds the DR and allowing Morrigan to control the soul of an old god as being high risk. If you don't find the DR to be too high of a risk, if you are not arguing the perspective of a US-inclined-type character, then you probably won't see a valid reason to kill Morrigan.

Zjarcal wrote...

Morrigan's plan may indeed sound similar to what the Architect wanted, but that's really just making an assumption since we don't know anything else about Morrigan's plan other than it involves change.


We know Morrigan's plan involves change against people's will. That the people may be inclined to fight against it "with every fiber of their being". If the change is so great to invoke that kind of opposition, what kind of casualty count could we be talking about here?

She says "sometimes change is what people need most. Sometimes change is what sets them free." We also know what kind of freedom Morrigan enjoys. "Survival has meaning. Power has meaning." She despises the weakness of the circle mages, and was completely willing to sacrifice the alienage elves for a bit of extra power.

The Architect does reveal part of his plan in Awakening and we know the rest from "The Calling"

It's true that we did learn more about the Architect's plan than Morrigan's. But the Architect's plan also primarily involved changing people against their will. 

 (although "The Calling" should only be taken into consideration if we're metagaming).

Can I have gotten some of this info from Loghain?

so I'll give you the reason in saying that there is a decent chance that Morrigan's plan may result in something that won't be good for everyone.

Just because something is good for her, doesn't mean that it's good for everyone. Just like the Architect. And considering that she needs something as powerful as an old god soul to help her with this plan, I doubt we're talking small scale, here.

If you don't trust her at all, then yes, I can see that as a somewhat logical way for a character to decide that it's better to stop her right there (I still don't agree with the decision, but I can see the logic behind it and find it to be a somewhat reasonable choice).


Fair enough. We're disagreeing that the risk is too high to kill her, but not that if the risk were perceived as being too high, that killing her might be reasoned.

That being said, considering that character voluntarily accepted the DR in the first place (presumably solely to save her own life) without knowing much information about it and knowing she didn't trust Morrigan, she shares the blame with Morrigan for whatever the OGB may represent in the future.

Oh, this character is very aware of that. However, Morrigan *did* change her story. She told my character that she wanted to innocently preserve and old magic. Completely innocent. And now she's saying it's involved in a plan for some kind of world-changing event? wtf? 

It seems unfair to "kill" Morrigan now that she's no longer an ally just because she's having regrets about doing the DR.

It might be unfair. But if I think that this plan is too dangerous, and that this is my last chance to stop it, should I let her walk because I'm worried that I'll be doing something that is unfair? It's not like I don't feel bad about it at all. But having been 'fair' is not going to comfort my character if this plan does turn out to be harmful.

#58
phaonica

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I don't think Flemeth's actions were entirely altruistic. It was her plan to get the Old God Child, so she had a vested interest in rescuing the surviving Wardens and nursing them to health.


So Flemeth's biggest mistake was not being in your party, so that she could prove to you that she was trustworthy? Morrigan's actions weren't entirely altruistic, either, she came along for exactly the same reasons: to get the old god soul. Is Flemeth less trustworthy just because she wasn't in your group, and didn't have the chance to prove herself?

#59
Costin_Razvan

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When where Flemeth's actions in any way altruistic? I never got that idea.

#60
Giggles_Manically

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There are things about Flemeth that make me very nervous.

She is obviuosly something very smart and powerful but what though?



But yes she is up to something, and her whole line about why she helps you right after Ostagar is most likely BS.

#61
phaonica

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

When where Flemeth's actions in any way altruistic? I never got that idea.


She saved your life at the tower, and she is the one who provided Morrigan with the DR.

To me, the more important question is, what she *didn't* do. I don't remember Flemeth doing anything to warrant anyone killing her. We have suspicions but no proof.

#62
Costin_Razvan

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Hopefully we will find out WHAT exactly she is after in Dragon Age 2...and kill her once and for all.

Or maybe join her/make her work for you ( though GOOD luck with THAT ).

 She saved your life at the tower, and she is the one who provided Morrigan with the DR.  


All for her own benefit.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 11 septembre 2010 - 07:11 .


#63
Zjarcal

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phaonica wrote...

She says "sometimes change is what people need most. Sometimes change is what sets them free." We also know what kind of freedom Morrigan enjoys. "Survival has meaning. Power has meaning." She despises the weakness of the circle mages, and was completely willing to sacrifice the alienage elves for a bit of extra power.


I know, I think I mentioned that in my post as well. Morrigan is of the philosophy "the end justifies the means".

Can I have gotten some of this info from Loghain?


I have to admit that I hadn't thought about that possibility. Good point.

Fair enough. We're disagreeing that the risk is too high to kill her, but not that if the risk were perceived as being too high, that killing her might be reasoned.


Yep. Like I said earlier, I can actually see some reasonable logic in your character's motivations to kill Morrigan.

Oh, this character is very aware of that. However, Morrigan *did* change her story. She told my character that she wanted to innocently preserve and old magic. Completely innocent. And now she's saying it's involved in a plan for some kind of world-changing event? wtf? 


Fair enough as well. It adds to the validity of your character's motivations.

It might be unfair. But if I think that this plan is too dangerous, and that this is my last chance to stop it, should I let her walk because I'm worried that I'll be doing something that is unfair? It's not like I don't feel bad about it at all. But having been 'fair' is not going to comfort my character if this plan does turn out to be harmful.


Once gain, fair enough, I can understand the character's motivations and can see them as logical from the point of view you present.

I think we reached a consensus here. We don't agree on the "risk" Morrigan represents, but since you were able to present a compelling case, I can perfectly view your decision as reasonable and logical, as opposed to what I originally thought couldn't be logically justified.

:wizard:

Modifié par Zjarcal, 11 septembre 2010 - 07:13 .


#64
phaonica

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Giggles_Manically wrote...

There are things about Flemeth that make me very nervous.
She is obviuosly something very smart and powerful but what though?

But yes she is up to something, and her whole line about why she helps you right after Ostagar is most likely BS.


Did you kill her? 

And if so, why? Because she made you nervous and was up to something? Is that enough reason to kill her?

#65
Costin_Razvan

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You did not kill her? "Surprised."

#66
phaonica

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I think we reached a consensus here. We don't agree on the "risk" Morrigan represents, but since you were able to present a compelling case, I can perfectly view your decision as reasonable and logical, as opposed to what I originally thought couldn't be logically justified.

:wizard:


I guess I'm pretty defensive about my choice. I guess it's all the "there is no good reason to kill Morrigan, those players/characters should diaf" that make me a little sensitive to it. Image IPB

#67
Giggles_Manically

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phaonica wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

There are things about Flemeth that make me very nervous.
She is obviuosly something very smart and powerful but what though?

But yes she is up to something, and her whole line about why she helps you right after Ostagar is most likely BS.


Did you kill her? 

And if so, why? Because she made you nervous and was up to something? Is that enough reason to kill her?

While she did save my life, it was for her/its own reasons.
I am iffy on the issue, sometimes I do sometimes I dont.

Although I wish Morrigan had said that she cant turn into a damn Dragon before I went after her.

#68
phaonica

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Costin_Razvan wrote...



 She saved your life at the tower, and she is the one who provided Morrigan with the DR.  


All for her own benefit.


Right. So they can't really be called altruistic. But my argument was never that Flemeth was altruistic, only that I didn't think she'd done anything that justified killing her.

#69
phaonica

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Giggles_Manically wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

There are things about Flemeth that make me very nervous.
She is obviuosly something very smart and powerful but what though?

But yes she is up to something, and her whole line about why she helps you right after Ostagar is most likely BS.


Did you kill her? 

And if so, why? Because she made you nervous and was up to something? Is that enough reason to kill her?

While she did save my life, it was for her/its own reasons.
I am iffy on the issue, sometimes I do sometimes I dont.

Although I wish Morrigan had said that she cant turn into a damn Dragon before I went after her.


So if it's justified to kill Flemeth based on that she made you nervous and was up to something? Why is killing Morrigan based on that she makes me nervous and was up to something not justified?

#70
Zjarcal

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phaonica wrote...

I guess I'm pretty defensive about my choice. I guess it's all the "there is no good reason to kill Morrigan, those players/characters should diaf" that make me a little sensitive to it. Image IPB


Yeah, I admit that since I hadn't really thought about the possibilities why one would make that choice, and given how dramatic the death scene is and how it comes out of nowhere, it was sort of a knee jerk reaction to say that those who "kill" Morrigan are "HORRIBLE PEOPLE WHO DESERVE TO DIE!"... sorry about that!

It reminds of an argument I once had with someone else about the decision to kill Connor in Redcliffe. Only in that case, I was in your position.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 11 septembre 2010 - 07:25 .


#71
Costin_Razvan

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How it is justified to leave someone alive that takes over the bodies of people to prolong her life?! I am VERY ruthless and pragmatic but I also hold the ideals of mercy and greater good very close to my heart, but I cannot justify leaving Flemeth.

Even if Morrigan is lying ( which wouldn't surprise me btw ) Flemeth does flat out acknowledge what Morrigan states about her. One really needs to get rid of her.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 11 septembre 2010 - 07:28 .


#72
KnightofPhoenix

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phaonica wrote...



I think we reached a consensus here. We don't agree on the "risk" Morrigan represents, but since you were able to present a compelling case, I can perfectly view your decision as reasonable and logical, as opposed to what I originally thought couldn't be logically justified.

:wizard:


I guess I'm pretty defensive about my choice. I guess it's all the "there is no good reason to kill Morrigan, those players/characters should diaf" that make me a little sensitive to it. Image IPB


I love it when people reach a consensus. Warms the heart. Image IPB (a warm heart).

#73
Giggles_Manically

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Wow, the planets must be aligned today since I am in total agreement with Costin.

Flemeth needs to be squished now, when you have the chance.



Saving someone's life is good, but doing it only to further a dark goal is not.

She dosent even act annoyed by it even! Its like whateves lets get this over with I have an appoitment in an hour kinda mood.
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#74
Zjarcal

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I love it when people reach a consensus. Warms the heart. Image IPB (a warm heart).


Dawww, I'm so glad we warmed your heart KoP! Let's celebrate with a Morri pic!

Image IPB

Modifié par Zjarcal, 11 septembre 2010 - 07:48 .


#75
KnightofPhoenix

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Zjarcal wrote...

Dawww, I'm so glad we warmed your heart KoP! Let's celebrate with a Morri pic!

Image IPB


Image IPBImage IPBImage IPB
Going through the mirror is worth it just for her eyes.