106 réponses à ce sujet

[Myusha]

Morrigan nevers leaves you despite how you treat her. She seeks to aid the Wardens, by usually picking out the most useful decisions that would make the Final Battle easier. Like golems for example. However she won't leave based on your decisions. She also requests you to find Flemeth's Grimoire, and Kill her afterwards, but you can reject to both. She will be angry, but she won't leave either. Finally, after aiding you for months she offers you a choice that actually helps her in her goal.



The Old God Baby. In return the Wardens survive their battle with the Archdemon, and she will leave once the battle is done. She helped you fulfill your goal, and now she had her own to fulfill. One Year Later, if you denied her, she aided you with no true reward, beside maybe time you potentially bought with Flemeth's Death. She still holds feelings towards you if romanced, and if you ask to join her, she finally decides to let you come along.



If you stab her, you basically can break her heart, or her first true friendship, and could have potentially orphaned a baby. Also you could leave Flemeth unopposed in whatever she planned, and in the end, stabbing her leaves really no chances to stop whatever game Morrigan and Flemeth plan. Flemeth wins if you stab Morrigan and kill her, or their game continues if you stab her and she survives, or if you just leave. If you go with her however, you learn of her plan, and soon will be able to make your move against Flemeth or Morrigan. Thus, the Witches of the Wilds, warrant no true action against them until you have enough information to make a rational decision.



And killing her just because she has a God Baby, is partially, or fully your fault. You allowed her to undergo the Ritual in the first place if the Baby exists. So unless you decided/plan that "Oh, I'll, take the ritual and survive, but I'll fix my screw-up and kill you both." Right there and then, having regrets leaves only you to blame for them.

[phaonica]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Even if Morrigan is lying ( which wouldn't surprise me btw ) Flemeth does flat out acknowledge what Morrigan states about her. 

No she doesn't. Where does Flemeth say, "Yes, Morrigan figured out my continuing scheme to prolong my life via bodysnatching?" She doesn't.

Flemeth: Lovely Morrigan has at last found someone willing to dance to her tune. Such enchanting music she plays, wouldn't you say?
Flemeth: What has Morrigan told you, hmm? What little plan has she hatched this time?
PC: She knows how you extend your unnatural lifespan.
Flemeth: That she does. The question is, do you?

[Brockololly]

Well, thats my problem with Flemeth- she NEVER gives you a straight answer. At all. As for the"change" Morrigan mentions- To me, it seemed as if its some inevitable thing thats coming regardless, and that its more or less do you want to be siding with Morrigan or Flemeth when this change comes?

Modifié par Brockololly, 11 septembre 2010 - 09:12 .

[phaonica]

Brockololly wrote...

Well, thats my problem with Flemeth- she NEVER gives you a straight answer. At all.

That's true, but is that enough justification to kill her?

As for the"change" Morrigan mentions- To me, it seemed as if its some inevitable thing thats coming regardless,

This might be true, but it's also a harder conclusion to reach if you did the DR, because as a player you know that Morrigan lets you know about the change even if the DR wasn't done. If your character doesn't have that information, they might conclude that the OGB could be the catalyst for the change. You can't get to the OGB to do anything about that, but you can get to Morrigan.

and that its more or less do you want to be siding with Morrigan or Flemeth when this change comes?

If I have the chance to stop the change altogether, I'm going to take that side, first.

[naledgeborn]

Stabbing Morrigan is as stupid as putting unhardened Alistair on the throne solo. And I agree with the "Dog" theory.

[Monica21]

naledgeborn wrote...

Stabbing Morrigan is as stupid as putting unhardened Alistair on the throne solo. And I agree with the "Dog" theory.

Not really a compelling case.  <_<

[naledgeborn]

Shouldn't have to explain myself, there's about 3 pages worth of arguments that support my opinion. But we all know what opinions are like....

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

phaonica wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I don't think Flemeth's actions were entirely altruistic. It was her plan to get the Old God Child, so she had a vested interest in rescuing the surviving Wardens and nursing them to health.

So Flemeth's biggest mistake was not being in your party, so that she could prove to you that she was trustworthy? Morrigan's actions weren't entirely altruistic, either, she came along for exactly the same reasons: to get the old god soul. Is Flemeth less trustworthy just because she wasn't in your group, and didn't have the chance to prove herself?

I never said anywhere that I consider Morrigan any more trustworthy than Flemeth.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

phaonica wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Even if Morrigan is lying ( which wouldn't surprise me btw ) Flemeth does flat out acknowledge what Morrigan states about her. 

No she doesn't. Where does Flemeth say, "Yes, Morrigan figured out my continuing scheme to prolong my life via bodysnatching?" She doesn't.

Flemeth: Lovely Morrigan has at last found someone willing to dance to her tune. Such enchanting music she plays, wouldn't you say?
Flemeth: What has Morrigan told you, hmm? What little plan has she hatched this time?
PC: She knows how you extend your unnatural lifespan.
Flemeth: That she does. The question is, do you?

This. Flemeth never confirms that what Morrigan told you (the bodysnatching thing) is true. She never actually denies it either, but the heavy implication is that you're being played.

My first Warden decided to trust Morrigan and killed Flemeth, then regretted it afterwards. Even more when the Dark Ritual was proposed. (This was Flemeth's plan? And you're going ahead with it anyway even when you told me she'd come back to life? Is this smart?)

[Sarah1281]

Right. So they can't really be called altruistic. But my argument was never that Flemeth was altruistic, only that I didn't think she'd done anything that justified killing her.

We haven't seen Morrigan do anything that justified killing her, either. I don't really count 'leaves before final battle' as something as it seems to be tied up in 'leaves after I won't do what she wants' implying that if she just up and ditched without trying to talk you into the DR it wouldn't have been a killing offense. You also really don't hear people arguing that when characters decide to leave awhile before the final battle and thus aren't there for it because they hate you that they should be killed. Morrigan COULD be a threat but so could Flemeth. If you don't think her potential for evil is justification for killing her then what's different about Morrigan's potential for evil?

This. Flemeth never confirms that what Morrigan told you (the bodysnatching thing) is true. She never actually denies it either, but the heavy implication is that you're being played.

What I don't get is why she acts like that even before you tell her what Morrigan told you or if you never tell her at all. She's either psychic (which I guess she could be) or she's just assuming Morrigan lied to you and is amused at what you tell her. Given that Morrigan has the same 'I can't believe you actually told Loghain/Alistair the truth' reaction if you tell them about the OGB pre-DR, it could just mean Flemeth is amused that Morrigan didn't make something up.

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Morrigan COULD be a threat but so could Flemeth. If you don't think her potential for evil is justification for killing her then what's different about Morrigan's potential for evil?

Right, that was kind of my point, but I'm not good at expressing it. Some are accusing me of killing Morrigan with no evidence, but only suspicion. They say that it's not right to kill Morrigan based on suspicion, but at the same time they themselves claim that suspicion was enough to kill Flemeth. (And it is only suspicions, because the only "proof" you have is what Morrigan tells you).

When I said that I didn't see any justification for killing Flemeth, I meant 'justification' by the definition of those who have been accusing me--that is that you can't justify killing someone with no solid evidence against them.

However, if killing Flemeth based on suspicions alone *can* be justified, then killing Morrigan based on suspicions alone can be justified, too.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

This. Flemeth never confirms that what Morrigan told you (the bodysnatching thing) is true. She never actually denies it either, but the heavy implication is that you're being played.

What I don't get is why she acts like that even before you tell her what Morrigan told you or if you never tell her at all. She's either psychic (which I guess she could be) or she's just assuming Morrigan lied to you and is amused at what you tell her. Given that Morrigan has the same 'I can't believe you actually told Loghain/Alistair the truth' reaction if you tell them about the OGB pre-DR, it could just mean Flemeth is amused that Morrigan didn't make something up.

Well, the whole 'Flemeth is not even *gasp* human!' thing could mean she's psychic, yes. She has so many mysterious powers she could have found out what was going on in a hundred never-to-be-explained ways. Maybe Morri learned this one when she got the grimoire.

[asaiasai]

I will start out by reminding people that Asai is probably the most vocal Morrigan hater on these forums. I need to stake that position because when i have been proven wrong or misled i will admit so. Concerning Morrigan i am a bit disappointed the writers have pulled a switcharoo on me (us), and i had a feeling it was comming and yes i did call it in advance. Morrigan's actions in DAO left me with an overwhelming desire to gank her skanky ass the first opportunity i was provided with. She manupulates the warden into and out of bed as she sees fit, using her sex as a weapon and many a player fell victim to it. She has no understanding of duty, no sense of selflessness, she does not see people as other people only as something to be manupulated for her own ends, at least that is how i have read her up until Witch Hunt.

Now we come to Flemeth who is more than she appears which could be considered an understatment at the very least. In Origins the first time we meet her she lets on that she has her finger on the pulse of the times. When Jory silences Daveth with, i have to paraphrase,  "if she is a witch of the wilds it would not due to provoke her" to which Flemeth replies, "that is a smart boy insignifigant in the over all scheme of things", this should warn or alert the player that she has some power of divination especially considering the way the joining turned out. Flemeth saves both the PC and Allistair from certain death at the hands of the darkspawn in the tower of Ostagar. Is this an alturistic motive, one really can not with the information we have make a determination, but the thousands of lives Flemeth saved by saving the wardens does IMHO make her a bit more credible than Morrigan.

Who is the puppet master and who is the puppet is the 64 million dollar question. Is Flemeth, Morrigan or are both manipulating the warden? Is the warden just a piece to be moved around on the chess board by both of these skilled players? With the information we have from both Origins and Witch Hunt it does appear to me that Morrigan is way out of her depth in the game she is playing with Flemeth. This does not make Flemeth the evil Morrigan has painted her to be, just an adversary that Morrigan seems to have under estimated. Does this mean that in DA2 the next time we see Flemeth she will look like Morrigan, that would be an awesome "flunk you" to the community, i just get all tingly at the thought. But even in that eventuality does this still make Flemeth evil, in my opinion no, it is only by actions that i choose to judge evil, as Hawke having no recollection of Morrigan, the warden , and the drama of it all, by what criteria can i judge but her actions, but by those she presents in DA2? 

The only way i know to do this next part is to start stacking the "ifs"
If Flemeth is as dangerous as Morrigan wants us to believe,
if Flemeth is all that and a bag of chips in the evil department,
if Flemeth is as omnipotent as Morrigan tells us
if Flemeth is something not entirely human, something more above description

Why would Flemeth be concerned about the blight? None of the mortal concerns would seem to apply to Flemeth. But i think the most important consideration is that the only word we have for any of these "IFs" is from Morrigan, who at this point could be considered an adversary of Flemeth. Again is this just more Morrigan manupulation, could the child or the desire for one be an attempt to solidify the warden as an ally against Flemeth? The whole point of witch hunt from Morrigan's perspective could just be nothing more than an elaborate escape attempt from a fight she started, a fight she can not win, nothing more than a convoluted plot to live another day. All of these reasons if true could be considered valid from any perspective but they not worthy of the warden's time.     

I will have to say that my opinion of Morrigan has shifted from the evil villianess i thought her to be to more of a pathetic figure not worthy of any more time or effort than to cart my bulk away from her presence. I have played witch hunt a few more times, 6 characters down 14 characters left to go through WH, and on the most recient 2 bugs aside, it is on these that i really came to that determination. I am a bit disappointed in the writers for what i consider a radical change to the character i loved to hate, but as this is an ongoing story that will change as the telling progresses i still have hope. But for now I will content myself that even as evil as i thought Morrigan to be, having been proven at this point to be incorrect, even having to dismiss her entirely twice now, Morrigan is gone at least for awhile and that is some reason to be satisfyied.

Asai

[Amfortas]

I killed Morrigan because I couldn't trust her, just in the same way I had to kill the Architect and Flemeth. My warden sees herself as a guardian of the established order, a protector of continuity, so when Morrigan starts talking about major changes and refuses to give any answers about what her plans are, the warden started to se her as a threat. Why doesn't Morrigan want to answer anything? probably because I'm not going to like what she has to say and I'll try to stop her. Not answering was enough of an answer for me.

Instead she suggests that I should keep hunting Flemeth, but doesn't give me any real reason for doing that either. I thought that this was a case of pupil rebeling against her master, that their intentions where the same and Morrigan simply wanted to use me to get rid of her master, giving her carte blanche to do whatever she wishes.



That said I wasn't satisfied with the ending at all. I thought I was going to fight her, not to assassinate her, and pushing her through the mirror was absurd, I think the line says something like:

I won't let you (attack)

But in the end not only you let, but you help her go through the mirror, rendering it useless and leaving you without any answers again. That mirror should have been kept intact for Finn to study it and then I would have tried to enter it myself to understand what was happening.

[Whailor]

Of course I did the DR. Why wouldn't I? What, I'm supposed to walk up to some hungry dragon and become it's snack, in a sense, just to "save the world"? Forget it. I may save it all right but I definitely will not sacrifice my life to do that. All the things in the world aren't worth my life. So obviously I took the DR. Besides, if Morrigan and that "OGB" would ever become an issue or a threat then I would have dealt with them, simple enough.



As for shanking Morrigan at the end of WH - I didn't, I actually went with her through the mirror. Why not, it looked like a "gateway" to new places, new things, new adventures. If I ever would have considered her a threat at that moment, or any other, I would have killed her. I don't care if she's with a child or without - if there's a threat, I deal with it, no matter the situation. But as I she wasn't it so off we went. I did eliminate Loghain, not so much because he was a threat but because he was a traitor. I left Alistair as the king as that was the right choice. I would have eliminated Anora too but sadly that option wasn't given. Too bad. As for future, we'll see what it brings, meanwhile I can "hang out" with Morrigan, wherever we went through that mirror.

[Vankraft]

I happen to NEVER kill party members, just because I tend to feel that I may or may not be missing out on certain game-play elements. All in which doesn't bother me at all, one of the major aspects in DA:O that appealed to me the most was the fact that there were party members in the group that I loathed completely.

Which isn't a bad thing at all, I was rather surprised and astonished that a GAME could incite such a reaction from me, the player.

EDIT: Back on topic, what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Modifié par Vankraft, 12 septembre 2010 - 01:33 .

[phaonica]

Amfortas wrote...

That said I wasn't satisfied with the ending at all. I thought I was going to fight her, not to assassinate her, and pushing her through the mirror was absurd, I think the line says something like:
I won't let you (attack)
But in the end not only you let, but you help her go through the mirror, rendering it useless and leaving you without any answers again.

I liked the assassination scene, because I had expected that even if I "attacked" her, she'd escape through the portal or there would be a combat-then-cutscene like when you fight Howe, and then she'd still probably get away. So I liked that I was actually able to "kill" her... except that I wasn't because even after stabbing her, she still went through the portal. And one can assume that if there is no body, there is no death.  

From a metagame point of view, I don't know how well a future Morrigan-as-Antagonist would be received, anyway, and I can't imagine that the devs would 'reward' the 'hater' ending by allowing that to actually help the situation. So if they were going to let Morrigan get away anyway, while the choice to try to kill her might matter to a character's RPing, the actual killing scene does seem kind of hater-indulgent in the scheme of things (and it's a really well-done scene too, so that boggles my mind). 

[wickedgoodreed]

phaonica wrote...
From a metagame point of view, I don't know how well a future Morrigan-as-Antagonist would be received, anyway, and I can't imagine that the devs would 'reward' the 'hater' ending by allowing that to actually help the situation. So if they were going to let Morrigan get away anyway, while the choice to try to kill her might matter to a character's RPing, the actual killing scene does seem kind of hater-indulgent in the scheme of things (and it's a really well-done scene too, so that boggles my mind).

Yeah, the fact that the scene was so well-done (in a DLC full of things that could have used more attention) and seems designed to provoke such a visceral reaction makes me think that it's a big meta-game hint from the devs that killing Morrigan isn't the "right" choice in the grand scheme.

Modifié par wickedgoodreed, 12 septembre 2010 - 04:50 .

[phaonica]

asaiasai wrote...

Morrigan's actions in DAO left me with an overwhelming desire to gank her skanky ass the first opportunity i was provided with. She manupulates the warden into and out of bed as she sees fit, using her sex as a weapon and many a player fell victim to it. She has no understanding of duty, no sense of selflessness, she does not see people as other people only as something to be manupulated for her own ends, at least that is how i have read her up until Witch Hunt.

The whole point of witch hunt from Morrigan's perspective could just be nothing more than an elaborate escape attempt from a fight she started, a fight she can not win, nothing more than a convoluted plot to live another day.

But for now I will content myself that even as evil as i thought Morrigan to be, having been proven at this point to be incorrect, even having to dismiss her entirely twice now, Morrigan is gone at least for awhile and that is some reason to be satisfyied.

Asai

So you don't think she's evil anymore, you think she's a pathetic pawn trying to escape Flemeth's machinations? That might be true, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that you've been "proven at this point to be incorrect" about Morrigan.

[phaonica]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

phaonica wrote...
From a metagame point of view, I don't know how well a future Morrigan-as-Antagonist would be received, anyway, and I can't imagine that the devs would 'reward' the 'hater' ending by allowing that to actually help the situation. So if they were going to let Morrigan get away anyway, while the choice to try to kill her might matter to a character's RPing, the actual killing scene does seem kind of hater-indulgent in the scheme of things (and it's a really well-done scene too, so that boggles my mind).

Yeah, the fact that the scene was so well-done (in a DLC full of things that could have used more attention) and seems designed to provoke such a visceral reaction makes me think that it's a big meta-game hint from the devs that killing Morrigan isn't the "right" choice in the grand scheme.

It's hard to say. I never played through the scene in the mindset of a 'hater' so it's difficult for me to imagine how that scene looks from that perspective. The scene does seem to express that killing Morrigan is not something funny, that it should be taken seriously. However, it doesn't say to me whether that's because killing her is wrong or right, just that it should be taken seriously and not for the lulz.

[Pygmali0n]

Zjarcal wrote...

But I'm not going to argue. Everyone can have whatever view they want of the characters in the game and that's fine. I will leave you however with this little gem that was written by David Gaider and illustrated by the very talented Aimo. It's a scene that was originally going to be in the game but had to be cut for budget and time constraints. Not that it will change your opinion of Morrigan, but perhaps you will see that deep down in that "dark and evil heart" there are some real feelings.

http://blog.bioware....velation-comic/

Wow, thanks for this - this really, really, really should have been in the game.

[Amfortas]

Vankraft wrote...

EDIT: Back on topic, what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

yeah, I'd like an option to be reduce her and keep her under custody for further investigation, followed by a cutscene where the warden reads Morrigan her rights, but that doesn't seem to be very popular in the dragon age world where you don't have options like sending Loghain to exile for example.

wickedgoodreed wrote...

Yeah, the fact that
the scene was so well-done (in a DLC full of things that could have
used more attention) and seems designed to provoke such a visceral
reaction makes me think that it's a big meta-game hint from the devs
that killing Morrigan isn't the "right" choice in the grand scheme.

true, as I said they made it look as an assassination, not even an execution, it was bioware telling you "you're such a bad bad person" I tried to roleplay my Warden as a nice person.
But anyway, I don't think the choice has any importance, Morrigan lives and the Warden is not going to come back, so I doubt her hate towards the warden is going to be very relevant to the plot.

[Amfortas]

Zjarcal wrote...

http://blog.bioware....velation-comic/

that was nice, but there's something I don't understand. If she believes the dark ritual is such a terrible thing, why does she get so upset if you don't do it? I know she's an arrogant person, so it's logical that doesn't take well to be refused, but even to the point of leaving? besides, if she were so concerned about the warden's safety she would have stayed to help in the final battle. There's and inconsistency there with Morrigan's character, am I supposed to believe now that she didn't want to do the dark ritual?
I'm glad the cutscene wasn't included. In fact, I'm going to forget it's existence right now.

Modifié par Amfortas, 12 septembre 2010 - 08:27 .

[Zjarcal]

Pygmali0n wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

But I'm not going to argue. Everyone can have whatever view they want of the characters in the game and that's fine. I will leave you however with this little gem that was written by David Gaider and illustrated by the very talented Aimo. It's a scene that was originally going to be in the game but had to be cut for budget and time constraints. Not that it will change your opinion of Morrigan, but perhaps you will see that deep down in that "dark and evil heart" there are some real feelings.

http://blog.bioware....velation-comic/

Wow, thanks for this - this really, really, really should have been in the game.

If you play on PC, there is a mod that attempts to place that scene in the game. Obviously being a mod, the scene isn't exactly of professional quality, but it's well done overall and features some nice touches, such as Alistair having flashbacks of his romance with the player.

The mod however will only work for a player that is in love with Alistair (females or males who used mods to romance him) and at "friendly" status with Morrigan.

You can download it here:

http://www.dragonage...ile.php?id=1611

[Zjarcal]

Amfortas wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

http://blog.bioware....velation-comic/

that was nice, but there's something I don't understand. If she believes the dark ritual is such a terrible thing, why does she get so upset if you don't do it? I know she's an arrogant person, so it's logical that doesn't take well to be refused, but even to the point of leaving? besides, if she were so concerned about the warden's safety she would have stayed to help in the final battle. There's and inconsistency there with Morrigan's character, am I supposed to believe now that she didn't want to do the dark ritual?
I'm glad the cutscene wasn't included. In fact, I'm going to forget it's existence right now.

I'm not one to tell you what to like or believe. I simply linked that because it comes from the main writer of DA, David Gaider, whom I believe knows Morrigan much better than any of us.

I will address a couple of things you said.

If she believes the dark ritual is such a terrible thing, why does she get so upset if you don't do it? I know she's an arrogant person, so it's logical that doesn't take well to be refused, but even to the point of leaving? besides, if she were so concerned about the warden's safety she would have stayed to help in the final battle.

It's not so much she believes that the DR is a terrible thing. It's something she feels that she must do, both for her personal plans and to save the one person she has grown to care for.

When you reject the ritual she says "I will not stand by and watch you throw away such opportunity. Die, if you feel it's worthwhile, I don't care". The VO notes in the toolset for this particular line say, "she does care, but she does not want to watch her only friend die". So, Morrigan being Morrigan, she decides to leave because she's upset at you for not wanting to take the chance she's giving you to save your life. A rash decision perhaps, but that's Morrigan for you.

....am I supposed to believe now that she didn't want to do the dark ritual?

I don't know if you noticed, but in Witch Hunt, there is a line where you can ask her if the "change" she speaks of is what she wants. In response, she makes a sad face and says "What I want.... tis not important". For Morrigan, the DR and the change she speaks of are not things she wants to do as much as things she NEEDS to do. Why? We don't know, but that's clearly the impression I get from her dialogue.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 13 septembre 2010 - 04:50 .