351 réponses à ce sujet

[krimesh]

Lord_Tirian wrote...
Inconclusive. It's actually something that is still debated. You might find "Brain Storm: The flaws in the science of sex differences" by Rebecca M. Jordan-Young (Harvard University Press) interesting (be warned, it's ~400 pages thick, so you might want to set aside a day or so to read it). It's nicely written, too.

I am no expert, but in any case someone will first have to convince me that all my personal experience can be explained by cultural conditioning.

I know of one interesting example where men and women operate very differently though: mushroom collecting& hunting. Men actually might find more mushrooms, but they waist waaaay more energy than women, so that women are more efficient. Women have trouble hunting, because hunting means following a curved path there and a straight line back. All this happens because males and females *prefer* different methods to navigate.

This "men are better at..." "women are better at..." doesn't go much further than very basic abilities, though.

[lyssalu]

clennon8 wrote...

I think there's a compromise to be had between having FemShep "fulfill gender roles" and having her act and move exactly like the man-shep at all times.

who says manshep isn't just acting and moving exactly like femshep at all times?

shepard is always the same person, whether male or female, with only slightly tweaked ideologies.

[clennon8]

lyssalu wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

I think there's a compromise to be had between having FemShep "fulfill gender roles" and having her act and move exactly like the man-shep at all times.

who says manshep isn't just acting and moving exactly like femshep at all times?

I'll go ahead and say that right now.  Manshep isn't just acting and moving exactly like femshep at all times. 

[Mecha Tengu]

clennon8 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

I think there's a compromise to be had between having FemShep "fulfill gender roles" and having her act and move exactly like the man-shep at all times.

who says manshep isn't just acting and moving exactly like femshep at all times?

I'll go ahead and say that right now.  Manshep isn't just acting and moving exactly like femshep at all times. 

man shep is limping side to side like a pathetic old woman when he jogs

[clennon8]

Shep dances like every man in the Mass Effect universe. Well, except for that one turian you can see boogying down during Thane's loyalty mission. He, like, actually moves his arms when he dances. Ever notice that guy?

[Mecha Tengu]

Flies_by_Handles wrote....

  Speaking of defaults, Bioware did a disservice to female fans of the series by placing emphasis on the male Shepard default throughout their advertisements. It would have been better if they had placed more emphasis on customization; I hardly saw these as talking points in any of the mainstream ads. This flaw may also have influenced why so many players used maleSheps. Anything seen as a deviation from the default, highly visable images will be considered inferior.

I don't think they ever really expected a huge influx of female fans. Video games are a male dominated industry, but the average female gamer does pop in from time to time. Can't rage Bioware on cashing the cheque to advertise for the majority of the community

[clennon8]

FbH brings up a good point. Customization of male Shepard's appearance does seem lacking. It's hard to make a Male Shep that doesn't look bland or downright ridiculous. I usually end up just using the default face.

[Mecha Tengu]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...



   The female gaming community is growing, and its presence is most largely felt with rpg games like Mass Effect. The game's advertisements could have been a source of encouragement for some female gamers who may have been put off by yet another macho, space marine saving the galaxy. If one of your game's major selling points is its customization, then take a bullhorn and advertise that fact!

 hey hey now, we like our macho space marine very much. It would be like me complaining that there is no such thing as blue lipstick, and this is a turn down for the "growing" gay male community who feels left out.

Modifié par Mecha Tengu, 14 septembre 2010 - 12:38 .

[Urazz]

Lord_Tirian wrote...

krimesh wrote...

However, the male and female brains are wired differently. The endocrine system works differently. Men and women think differently. These are facts.

Inconclusive. It's actually something that is still debated. You might find "Brain Storm: The flaws in the science of sex differences" by Rebecca M. Jordan-Young (Harvard University Press) interesting (be warned, it's ~400 pages thick, so you might want to set aside a day or so to read it). It's nicely written, too.

There are some differences.  Hormones and stuff like that do cause some differences but I don't think it's as drastic as others make it out to be.  Alot of it is due to the society we are in.

[Fhaileas]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...

   The female gaming community is growing, and its presence is most largely felt with rpg games like Mass Effect. The game's advertisements could have been a source of encouragement for some female gamers who may have been put off by yet another macho, space marine saving the galaxy. If one of your game's major selling points is its customization, then take a bullhorn and advertise that fact!

So true! We're all constantly asked to identify with male characters in the (cover) art, the game, or both. Females depicted are usually NPCs. And well, I have to say I have no problem with identifying with a male character, even if it's not my first choice for a playthrough. What I wonder then though, is why they use the excuse of needing a figure in the art that people can identify with ("and the majority of our gamers are male!"). What, the boys can't identify with a female character? Why the hell not? They don't do anyone any credit here, none of their fans of any gender. They´re perfectly willing to ask quite a lot of people (minority here is still a sizable number of players) to identify with a character of a different gender than their own, but they won't ask it of any males, because it might cost them in sales? They're concerned maybe that men will think they can only play female characters? They don't seem to think it's a big deal when it seems like you can only play male characters. They don't trust that their game is good enough that people will want to play it even if they cannot play their own gender (or it seems that way from marketing)?

They really don't get how and why it would be so nice to finally see a female hero centered on cover art and marketing (that is not just there for the boobs and hotpants)? I realise sales are important but I have to admit I'm disappointed that they are more important than this.

[kaskouka]

I must be in the 80% that plays MenShep. In fact I have 3 of them, but I have also 7 Femsheps.  So ... Take statistics for what they are ... statistics ^^

Modifié par kaskouka, 14 septembre 2010 - 01:27 .

[Fhaileas]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...

 Amen!  I also think this can boil down to a chicken or egg question. Developers and publishers may push for more male-centric advertisement because that is what draws in the most sales (gamers still seen as a largely male demographic) but what if more effort were put into showing strong female characters? Would that not influence a male gamer's expectation and preference?

One would certainly hope so! It's always bewildered me that, in a genre where we are used to stepping into someone else's shoes and becoming someone we are not, that it is considered harder to jump the gender divide while merrily playing an elven mage who fights dragons. Seriously? We can't suspend disbelief just a little more?

Also, from a purely female gamer POV, I think if Bioware really looked at the percentage of women playing their games, as opposed to other similar efforts-- and I am thinking in both the RPG and TPS genres-- their comparative advantage would rapidly become clear. As a company that has managed to attract a greater number of female players over the years, it would seem logical to direct marketing efforts to keep attracting that demographic.

Modifié par Fhaileas, 14 septembre 2010 - 01:48 .

[peppercake]

Call me weird, but I think FemShep's manly qualities are endearing and part of why I like her so much. It makes her seem more down-to-earth, and I like how the males look up to her and don't really think of her as a 'woman' (for example, her friendship with Garrus. I think it's great).... If that makes sense. I also like how she's not some bulky, tank of a woman who has to make a point of overpowering each and every man- it seems it's either one extreme or the other (the other being the boobs and hotpants). Shepard sits nicely in between- she sits and dances like man, but she can still look good in a dress (Kasumi dlc) and attract the fellas. And on that note, I think the awkward dancing fits into her character.

@Flies_by_Handles; I totally agree with you about Meer's voice, especially in comparison to Hale's. More often than not, it sounds like he's bored to death.

Modifié par omnomegghead, 14 septembre 2010 - 01:51 .

[wizardryforever]

Fhaileas wrote...

Flies_by_Handles wrote...

   The female gaming community is growing, and its presence is most largely felt with rpg games like Mass Effect. The game's advertisements could have been a source of encouragement for some female gamers who may have been put off by yet another macho, space marine saving the galaxy. If one of your game's major selling points is its customization, then take a bullhorn and advertise that fact!

So true! We're all constantly asked to identify with male characters in the (cover) art, the game, or both. Females depicted are usually NPCs. And well, I have to say I have no problem with identifying with a male character, even if it's not my first choice for a playthrough. What I wonder then though, is why they use the excuse of needing a figure in the art that people can identify with ("and the majority of our gamers are male!"). What, the boys can't identify with a female character? Why the hell not? They don't do anyone any credit here, none of their fans of any gender. They´re perfectly willing to ask quite a lot of people (minority here is still a sizable number of players) to identify with a character of a different gender than their own, but they won't ask it of any males, because it might cost them in sales? They're concerned maybe that men will think they can only play female characters? They don't seem to think it's a big deal when it seems like you can only play male characters. They don't trust that their game is good enough that people will want to play it even if they cannot play their own gender (or it seems that way from marketing)?

They really don't get how and why it would be so nice to finally see a female hero centered on cover art and marketing (that is not just there for the boobs and hotpants)? I realise sales are important but I have to admit I'm disappointed that they are more important than this.

Part of the problem is that people will in general choose to play as their own gender if possible.  While there are guys who play FemShep for various reasons (ranging from eye candy to voice acting), and there are girls who play as MaleShep, they are a minority for their gender.  People (especially those who don't roleplay) just identify more with their own gender.  It's understandable and just a fact of life.  It follows then that since most gamers are male (a sizable majority) the marketed main character will be male.

A lot of people have problems immersing themselves when playing the opposite gender, because their character is not really an extension of themselves.  Some people don't roleplay well, and that's not a fault.  I personally found it easier to roleplay a female character in Dragon Age, when I can imagine what her voice sounds like.  FemShep's voice just isn't what I imagine and not particularly fitting in my opinion.

The thing is that when there isn't an option, people have no problem.  Like in Tomb Raider.  People weren't complaining about playing a female character in that game despite most of the players being male.  The thing is that female gamers keep pushing for more realistic/independent female characters (especially leads), and this type of arguments attracts trolls like bees to honey.

[only1sgop]

More good games with the lead character is a female.

[Fhaileas]

wizardryforever wrote...

Part of the problem is that people will in general choose to play as their own gender if possible.  While there are guys who play FemShep for various reasons (ranging from eye candy to voice acting), and there are girls who play as MaleShep, they are a minority for their gender.  People (especially those who don't roleplay) just identify more with their own gender.  It's understandable and just a fact of life.  

A lot of people have problems immersing themselves when playing the opposite gender, because their character is not really an extension of themselves.  Some people don't roleplay well, and that's not a fault.  I personally found it easier to roleplay a female character in Dragon Age, when I can imagine what her voice sounds like.  FemShep's voice just isn't what I imagine and not particularly fitting in my opinion.

The thing is that when there isn't an option, people have no problem.  Like in Tomb Raider.  People weren't complaining about playing a female character in that game despite most of the players being male.  The thing is that female gamers keep pushing for more realistic/independent female characters (especially leads), and this type of arguments attracts trolls like bees to honey.

Your post was well stated; you're right, alas that is the sad reality of it all. 

It follows then that since most gamers are male (a sizable majority) the marketed main character will be male.

I am simply uncomfortable with the assumption that female gamers are just as likely to buy a game where it is not made obvious that they are welcome, or represented. That women are perfectly happy always playing male characters-- or, in Bioware's case, that women are perfectly happy being represented as male characters, and having male characters marketed to them even if they eventually play female characters.

I still cannot fathom how some gamers are almost threatened by the idea of having the game marketed to women, as though it will hurt their gaming experience. Or, alternatively, that by opening the game up to women that you close it to men. There's a feeling of mutual exclusivity, so to speak, which is odd in a company that has traditionally made games with female options. It's as if those options can be in the game, but god forbid we talk about them or acknowledge that they are a major draw. It's ridiculous, because if marketed correctly the inclusivity could easily attract new female gamers, because it's rare to find games which want you there, and make a tangible effort to show it. It's a cycle, which perpetuates a lower percentage of female gamers, etcetera.

[wizardryforever]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...

  It's a little hard for me to understand why some players find it difficult to immerse themselves into an opposite sex character; I've done that since childhood! Sure the "flavor" is a bit different but you can still appreciate character development and an uncommon perspective. How is it much different from reading a book or watching a movie about a character not at all like yourself?
 As for Lara Croft, I feel that in the early years she was seen more as an ultra busty sex symbol who was eventually adopted by female gamers as a symbol of empowerment. Of course I say this more from personal experience than anything else.

I get where you are coming from, but not everyone has the same perspective as you.  It is something you'll just have to accept I guess.  With non-interactive media like books and movies the character is not viewed as an extension of yourself, the whole feel is different, it's not like you're actually in the story.  I'm not sure most people have your gift for immersing oneself into the media.

[wizardryforever]

Fhaileas wrote...

I still cannot fathom how some gamers are almost threatened by the idea of having the game marketed to women, as though it will hurt their gaming experience. Or, alternatively, that by opening the game up to women that you close it to men. There's a feeling of mutual exclusivity, so to speak, which is odd in a company that has traditionally made games with female options. It's as if those options can be in the game, but god forbid we talk about them or acknowledge that they are a major draw. It's ridiculous, because if marketed correctly the inclusivity could easily attract new female gamers, because it's rare to find games which want you there, and make a tangible effort to show it. It's a cycle, which perpetuates a lower percentage of female gamers, etcetera.

I don't think this is the case.  I think it's just economics and business at work, no conspiracy or agenda.  It's difficult and expensive to market two different characters (one for each gender), so they target the most common denominator.  It's not a perfect world, marketing costs have to be considered.

There are also idiots that would get confused by having two different leads advertised, unfortunately.

[only1sgop]

Fhaileas wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Part of the problem is that people will in general choose to play as their own gender if possible.  While there are guys who play FemShep for various reasons (ranging from eye candy to voice acting), and there are girls who play as MaleShep, they are a minority for their gender.  People (especially those who don't roleplay) just identify more with their own gender.  It's understandable and just a fact of life.  

A lot of people have problems immersing themselves when playing the opposite gender, because their character is not really an extension of themselves.  Some people don't roleplay well, and that's not a fault.  I personally found it easier to roleplay a female character in Dragon Age, when I can imagine what her voice sounds like.  FemShep's voice just isn't what I imagine and not particularly fitting in my opinion.

The thing is that when there isn't an option, people have no problem.  Like in Tomb Raider.  People weren't complaining about playing a female character in that game despite most of the players being male.  The thing is that female gamers keep pushing for more realistic/independent female characters (especially leads), and this type of arguments attracts trolls like bees to honey.

Your post was well stated; you're right, alas that is the sad reality of it all. 

It follows then that since most gamers are male (a sizable majority) the marketed main character will be male.

I am simply uncomfortable with the assumption that female gamers are just as likely to buy a game where it is not made obvious that they are welcome, or represented. That women are perfectly happy always playing male characters-- or, in Bioware's case, that women are perfectly happy being represented as male characters, and having male characters marketed to them even if they eventually play female characters.

I still cannot fathom how some gamers are almost threatened by the idea of having the game marketed to women, as though it will hurt their gaming experience. Or, alternatively, that by opening the game up to women that you close it to men. There's a feeling of mutual exclusivity, so to speak, which is odd in a company that has traditionally made games with female options. It's as if those options can be in the game, but god forbid we talk about them or acknowledge that they are a major draw. It's ridiculous, because if marketed correctly the inclusivity could easily attract new female gamers, because it's rare to find games which want you there, and make a tangible effort to show it. It's a cycle, which perpetuates a lower percentage of female gamers, etcetera.

There are female gamers who love Modern Warfare that I personally know. That the most male game I can think of. Also, this is an article from 2009 about it.
http://kotaku.com/54...le-game-of-2009