72 réponses à ce sujet

[Zaxares]

Perhaps your choice of whether you picked Anderson or Udina to lead the Council also plays a factor?

[Berkilak]

None at all. That choice occurs after the save is created (thus Miranda's question in ME2).

[Bann Duncan]

I'm really annoyed at the cop-out they did by giving the Ascension more people than all of the potentially lost Alliance ships combined.

[Zaxares]

Maybe, but considering the initial message appears before the first Normandy is destroyed, the value IS saved from the first game, but is just confirmed/overriden when you make your choice during the Shuttle Ride?

[Bann Duncan]

It's not saved. I've checked with ME in windowed mode. The save is made before the endgame sequence with the Council and/or Anderson and Udina.

[Zaxares]

Ahh, OK. My mistake then.

[OniGanon]

Personally, I was annoyed that the option was 'save the council' and not 'save the Destiny Ascension.' I sure as hell don't care about saving three easily replaced politicians, but saving the biggest ship with the biggest gun and probably housing the biggest crew in the Citidel Fleet, that sounds a bit more appealing. Especially if that big gun might then be pointed in Sovereign's direction. I just wish there was an option to tell the Council, 'I didn't do it for you, you just happened to be on the right ship.'

But yeah, whether you let the Council die out of spite or because you want to concentrate on Sovereign, the aliens are still just going to see that you let their leaders die and allowed humanity to take control. It's not like they know about what Sovereign was and what was at stake.

Modifié par OniGanon, 09 octobre 2010 - 03:22 .

[Louis_Cypher]

From the perspective of ME2, the "neutral" and renegade options work out exactly the same way. I always assumed, like Pacifen, that the other races' judgement was made based on Udina's politics, not Shepard's.



The determining factor in whether you get the "human-led council" neutral or "humanity seized political control" renegade is how many renegade points you have at the end of the game (as far as I can tell, only renegade points affect it, as I've gotten it even on mixed runs with more paragon than renegade). But there isn't a whole lot of difference between those results in terms of new reports, etc.



And I second the idea that you should be able to leave control with Hackett. You're a marine, not a bridge officer, and you don't know the tactical situation. Especially since cinematic shows that "Concentrate on Sovereign" doesn't get the fleet there any sooner, since the can't engage until the arms open. Thus it's a choice between preserving forces, or cutting off any reinforcements and possibly allowing the Destiny Ascension to join the fight. That's exactly the kind of tactical choice that needs to be made by someone familiar with the relevant naval tactics: Hackett, not Shepard.

[ShrinkingFish]

Berkilak wrote...

I'm probably behind the times, but is this option bugged for the transfer over to ME2? It acts as if I let the council rot.

Because if you choose to focus on Sovereign you let the Council die. There are three options on the dialogue wheel, two of which result in the exact same thing, only what Shepard says changes, not the outcome.

If you concentrate on Sovereign then the Council is destroyed, killed off, and the Alliance are elivated to lead/dominate the Council and protect all Council races. Regardless if this was a strategic take over or an accidental one the Alliance still takes control of the government in response to the Council's destruction.

If you let the Council die the Alliance takes political control.

Regardless of intentions, good or bad, in later years they come to resent Shepard for allowing the Council to die, viewing their deaths as a planned event to create a power vacuum which the Alliance could fill even if this wasn't the case.

In the end there are only two responses to the Sovereign fight. Either you saved the Council and became a part of it or you let them die and seized control of the government. The latter always results in a negative response as it is always viewed as an intentional political move on Shepard's part even if it was not.

So essentially, the reason they accuse you of letting the Council rot... is because you did. Doesn't matter what the intentions were, you were in a position to save them and you didn't.

Even if the choice was between saving the Council and saving all life everywhere they would still blame Shepard for not saving the Council for they are completely unaware of the circumstances of Shepard's choice and refuse to understand the position he/she was in.

That's politics. The truth rarely has any bearing on the reality.

[maxernst]

I really didn't see why letting three people die was such a big deal. I mean, I could understand it if it had been the entire Citadel bureaucracy on that ship, but just those three. Wouldn't any sensible people have set up some sort of succession plan for the sudden death of the council members? Why should the Alliance take control?

[ShrinkingFish]

maxernst wrote...

I really didn't see why letting three people die was such a big deal. I mean, I could understand it if it had been the entire Citadel bureaucracy on that ship, but just those three. Wouldn't any sensible people have set up some sort of succession plan for the sudden death of the council members? Why should the Alliance take control?

It wasn't just a small shuttle with the three Council members on board... It was the largest ship in the Citadel fleet with possibly hundreds or thousands of souls on board. It is simply that the Council were the most important people on board and we have no idea how many others were being evacuated to that ship...

If it was just the three of them then I agree. Screw em. No need to sacrifice soldier's lives for those three ninny's. But the Council members were not the only ones at stake. It is just that the Council is so ego-centric they felt that none of the other lives on the ship were important...

[Randy1012]

There were 10,000 people on the Destiny Ascension. If the Alliance saves the Ascension, 2,400 human lives are lost. For the Paragon Shepard, you (obviously) don't want to lose anyone, but losing 2,400 people is worth saving 10,000 others, on top of maintaining galactic stability.

I was really ticked when that bug screwed up my Paragade's story. She was mostly Paragon but told the Alliance to concentrate on Sovereign. Not because she had any grudge against the Council, but because she thought it was the correct tactical decision. Now suddenly humans are in control and everyone hates humanity, which is not how it should have been.

[ShrinkingFish]

Randy1083 wrote...

There were 10,000 people on the Destiny Ascension. If the Alliance saves the Ascension, 2,400 human lives are lost. For the Paragon Shepard, you (obviously) don't want to lose anyone, but losing 2,400 people is worth saving 10,000 others, on top of maintaining galactic stability.

I was really ticked when that bug screwed up my Paragade's story. She was mostly Paragon but told the Alliance to concentrate on Sovereign. Not because she had any grudge against the Council, but because she thought it was the correct tactical decision. Now suddenly humans are in control and everyone hates humanity, which is not how it should have been.

That happened to me too... But that's politics for you. The truth and good intentions rarely have any bearing on it.

I think that the results being the humans are in control and everyone hates humanity to be a good and realistic result to Shepard's choice to sacrifice the Council. After all, Shepard is not the supreme authority in the world and there are plenty of Alliance military and politicians who would eagerly fill the gap that was conveniently left open by Shepard's choice.

Therefore Shepard would be vilified for the abuses of others. Or perhaps simply vilified by dissenting political factions.

So yeah, I don't think that was a bug... but deliberate.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 15 octobre 2010 - 08:44 .

[Randy1012]

Er, but didn't someone already mention that when the game first released, the let-the-Council-die Paragon ending continued into ME2, but then after BioWare patched something else in the game they accidentally messed up the Council thing and just made it either pure Paragon or pure Renegade? So even if you were a Paragon in ME1 who sacrificed the Council, which was then replaced by a new multispecies Council with a human chairman, ME2 treats it as if you made the Renegade choice and the new Council is purely human.

Modifié par Randy1083, 15 octobre 2010 - 08:52 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Randy1083 wrote...

Er, but didn't someone already mention that when the game first released, the let-the-Council-die Paragon ending continued into ME2, but then after BioWare patched something else in the game they accidentally messed up the Council thing and just made it either pure Paragon or pure Renegade? So even if you were a Paragon in ME1 who sacrificed the Council, which was then replaced by a new multispecies Council with a human chairman, ME2 treats it as if you made the Renegade choice and the new Council is purely human.

I'm not convinced that is true.

Especially since there were only three choices in the original...

Paragon: Save them

Renegade: Screw em

Nuetral: Concentrate on Sovereign, the Council is expendable

Renegade and Nuetral end the same way... all that changes is what Shepard says.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 15 octobre 2010 - 09:02 .

[Randy1012]

Three choices, four possible outcomes:

Save the Council (Paragon): Council saved, humans prove they're ready to work with other species and join the Council.
Sacrifice the Council (Paragon): Council killed, new multispecies Council is formed with a human chairman.
Save the Council (Renegade): Council saved, humanity's ruthless determination impresses the Council enough to offer them a seat on the Council.
Sacrifice the Council (Renegade): Council killed, new all-human Council is formed and humanity seizes political control of the Citadel.

Believe me, I've done them all.

Modifié par Randy1083, 15 octobre 2010 - 09:09 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Randy1083 wrote...

Three choices, four possible outcomes:

Save the Council (Paragon): Council saved, humans prove they're ready to work with other species and join the Council.
Sacrifice the Council (Paragon): Council killed, new multispecies Council is formed with a human chairman.
Save the Council (Renegade): Council saved, humanity's ruthless determination impresses the Council enough to offer them a seat on the Council.
Sacrifice the Council (Renegade): Council killed, new all-human Council is formed and humanity seizes political control of the Citadel.

Believe me, I've done them all.

And you've seen the results of all four reflected in ME2?

You don't think that, regardless of original intent, the political climate can change over the years? That the choices of a Paragon to sacrifice the Council and form a new multispecies Council while securing one of the seats for humanity could not be interpreted as an intentional political manuever to gain the Alliance more power?

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 15 octobre 2010 - 09:13 .

[Randy1012]

No, I agree with what you're saying, I'm just trying to say that I'm pretty sure ME2 originally honored all four potential endings, but then something got messed up and now it only honors two of them. I'm pretty sure it was mentioned right here in this thread, but it's past 5 AM and I am practically falling asleep on my keyboard, so I'm going to have to stop here for the night/morning.

[ShrinkingFish]

I think they reasonably honor all four ending in the current carry-over...



I don't see any major disconnect... but maybe you're right and it is a glitch.

[CaliSfo]

I don't would say that the outcome is glitched or bugged, since there are small differences in ME2 for at least three outcomes.

Save the Council: Council saved, humans prove they're ready to work with other species and join the Council.
Results in: Everybody loves humanity, more or less

Sacrifice the Council (Paragon): Council killed, new multispecies Council is formed with a human chairman.
Results in: Everybody hates humanity, multispecies Council with radiobroadcasts stating that "dissidents of other Council races are under suspicion of having attackes Freedoms Progress"

Sacrifice the Council (Renegade): Council killed, new all-human Council is formed and humanity seizes political control of the Citadel.
Results in: Everybody hates humanity, all-human Council with radiobroadcasts stating that "dissidents/member of former Council races are under ...."

So there is at least an acknowledgement of three different outcomes.

[Randy1012]

Thanks for that, CaliSfo. It's been a while since I played my Paragade in ME2, so I can't remember how those radio broadcasts in that particular playthrough went. I'm probably going to have my current Paragon Shepard tell the Alliance to concentrate on Sovereign, so when I import him over to ME2 I'll keep an ear out for those news bulletins.

[Randy1012]

Well, after checking it out for myself, I think the Council decision really is bugged, after all. At the end of ME1 my current (Paragon) Shepard told the Alliance Fleet to concentrate on Sovereign, which led to a new multispecies Council being formed, but with humanity leading it. I was just listening to the news bulletins on the Citadel in ME2, and one of them specifically mentioned "dissidents from former Council races," not other Council races. Hopefully this bug doesn't screw things up for ME3.

Modifié par Randy1083, 16 octobre 2010 - 08:21 .

[ShrinkingFish]

That is actually weird, because I just tried the paragon sacrifice in ME1 and it resulted in a human dominated Council... not a mixed species one...



So for me it makes sense mostly because I can't get that ending anyways...

[Marbazoid]

According to the ME2 save game editor, there aren't any specific plot flags that describe a human led, multi species outcome. Its just council saved or council left to die.

However, when a new ME2 game is started without importing a character, the opening text scrawl seems to reflect the "concentrate on sovereign" option.

Modifié par Marbazoid, 21 octobre 2010 - 04:42 .

[Quething]

Marbazoid wrote...

According to the ME2 save game editor, there aren't any specific plot flags that describe a human led, multi species outcome. Its just council saved or council left to die.

There is, however, a counter for your final Renegade score. The game, when it first came out, seemed to check that: if the council died and your paragon was lower then renegade (or possibly, as mentioned upthread, your renegade was low enough, period, I don't think anyone managed any extensive testing), you got "humanity leads a multispecies Council". If your renegade was high you got "humanity takes over." It got bugged somehow in one of the subsequent patches, and now, as you say, the only way to get the paragon-dead!Council scrawl is to start a new non-import game.

You can tell it's bugged all to hell in the game, too, even without the opening cinematic; a paragon who lets the Council die will get "dissidents from former Council races"/"hanar and elcor Council members" news reports, and "planning for the new Citadel fleet with the asari ceding duties to turians"/"Velarn says being a Council race means taking care of yourselves" news reports. Plus Anderson will talk about the other Council races "not discounting humanity's opinion." These news reports can't all be simultaneously valid; either the big three are still council races and humans are the new kids on the block, or the big three are gone and humans are in charge. Yet somehow paragon Council-killers seem to exist in a quantum superstate of uncollapsed political possibilities.

Which is a shame, because IMO that's the single most coherent ending, given the setup in ME2 (which is otherwise a retcon that would make Geoff Johns proud). Plus it lets me use the Persuade option with the Rodam guy without having to shill. Though the paragon rant to al-Jilani is markedly inferior to the live-Council one, so I guess it's a tradeoff either way.

Modifié par Quething, 21 octobre 2010 - 07:19 .